Overhyped Character

[Calderis]

@maxal this isn't the first time I've seen you mention this. What did Hoid do to Adolin? 

[StormblessDave]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@maxal this isn't the first time I've seen you mention this. What did Hoid do to Adolin? 

when you get beaten to replying the same thing lol

[StormblessDave]

Hoid is a mean guy, but he has a good heart. SA was my first Sanderson book, and I really enjoyed the Wit moments. He is quite overhyped, however it's very understandable, considering he's made an appearance in most of the cosmere books( and has beaten up Kelsier)

[maxal]

43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@maxal this isn't the first time I've seen you mention this. What did Hoid do to Adolin? 

He told Kaladin to openly flirt with Shallan despite noticing Adolin seemed to really like her. He purposefully got Kaladin to start thinking of Shallan as a love interest even thought it meant Adolin would be hurt.

He has an open biased towards Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar and Renarin. Adolin is basically the only one who is actually nice with him (well, alright Shallan also is but that's because he helped her), but he thanks him by ignoring him, favoring *again* Radiants and downright tell Kaladin to go and steel the very first girl he might have actually loved.

I get it, Radiants are super incredibly amazingly important, but I hate people having such bias and not taking into consideration *other people* might actually be able to contribute.

34 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

Hoid is a mean guy, but he has a good heart. SA was my first Sanderson book, and I really enjoyed the Wit moments. He is quite overhyped, however it's very understandable, considering he's made an appearance in most of the cosmere books( and has beaten up Kelsier)

If he had a good heart, he'd be nice to Adolin, but he isn't.

Edited August 19, 2017 by maxal

[Calderis]

@maxal so I never caught it due to my indifference to fictional romance. Makes sense. 

It sparks a situation I don't want to read, so I'm annoyed by it, but as far as "mean" eh... Adolin and Shallan only had the causal in place and had only been on a couple dates. As much as "dating" is currently treated like every relationship is serious and going an non-intimate dates is somehow "cheating," historically that was never true. "courting" was a casual relationship that was not binding to either party. It was obviously bad form to do what Adolin has accidentally done and have two simultaneous rendezvous, but without a formal agreement, or at least a spoken commitment between Shallan and Adolin, there's been no wrongdoing, so I can't really say Hoid was "mean." 

I still have to blame Hoid for causing the love triangle now though, so while I don't agree with you, you did make me like Hoid less. 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution]

@maxal

I doubt Hoid had any deeper meaning behind it. He just wants to tease and irritate everyone. He wants to make jokes. I also dont think that we should expect Hoid to be aware of Adolins true feelings toward Shallan. Sure, Adolin tells him hands off, but that is probably not something he says uniquely about Shallan, at least not in Hoids mind. 

Furthermore @Calderis I doubt we can blame Hoid for the love triangle. Kaladin started to like Shallan afterwards, in the chasms. People generally dont need remarks from other people in order to fall in love. I think that Kaladin would have started liking Shallan without Hoids comment.

 

[phoenix2563]

Intentional or not, Adolin has actually opened himself up to Shallan more than any other woman he has courted.  This could have a major impact to him at a deep level later on if the thing between Kaladin and Shallan grows.

[Toaster Retribution]

Plot twist: Adolin kills Kaladin to get Shallan. 

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@maxal so I never caught it due to my indifference to fictional romance. Makes sense. 

It sparks a situation I don't want to read, so I'm annoyed by it, but as far as "mean" eh... Adolin and Shallan only had the causal in place and had only been on a couple dates. As much as "dating" is currently treated like every relationship is serious and going an non-intimate dates is somehow "cheating," historically that was never true. "courting" was a casual relationship that was not binding to either party. It was obviously bad form to do what Adolin has accidentally done and have two simultaneous rendezvous, but without a formal agreement, or at least a spoken commitment between Shallan and Adolin, there's been no wrongdoing, so I can't really say Hoid was "mean." 

I still have to blame Hoid for causing the love triangle now though, so while I don't agree with you, you did make me like Hoid less. 

While it is true the casual is not the equivalent of a former betrothal, it is safe to say, at this point in time within the story, Shallan is Adolin's girldfriend. They are dating. Thus to me, Hoid's behavior is akin to having this obnoxious guy everyone is wary around except you, this guy who isn't a friend but you genuinely like, who comes forth and bluntly tell this other guy to go forward and openly flirt with your girlfriend. Adolin may not have taken a formal engagement with Shallan and other men are probably free to court her, even if it would be highly improper (would you court someone else's girlfriend?), but it does not prevent the fact it remains the equivalent of calling dibs to someone else's girlfriend. This is not loyal, this is not honorable and really, it is rather mean. It shows a complete lack of concern towards this girl's boyfriend, as if he didn't matter, as if he didn't exist.

This being said, I can't say Hoid is guilty of launching the love triangle, but he did play a role.

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@maxal

I doubt Hoid had any deeper meaning behind it. He just wants to tease and irritate everyone. He wants to make jokes. I also dont think that we should expect Hoid to be aware of Adolins true feelings toward Shallan. Sure, Adolin tells him hands off, but that is probably not something he says uniquely about Shallan, at least not in Hoids mind. 

Furthermore @Calderis I doubt we can blame Hoid for the love triangle. Kaladin started to like Shallan afterwards, in the chasms. People generally dont need remarks from other people in order to fall in love. I think that Kaladin would have started liking Shallan without Hoids comment.

Hoid is always aware of more than people lets one and his teasing always has for purpose to tell others what he thinks they need to hear. It is why he is no nice to Renarin, he wants to encourage him. He tells Kaladin stories having the possibility of encouraging him embracing his destiny. He tells Shallan what she needs to hear to keep on trying and move out of her block. He deeply respects Dalinar, but Adolin? What has he told him which was significant? Nothing. He has no interest in him, he doesn't even try with him. 

In shorts, Hoid has acted as if Adolin was expendable. Not necessary. Not required. Not needed. Not important.

It'd be great if one of the other characters were to actually care about Adolin, him who cares about everyone.

I however agree Hoid is not, technically, to blame for the love triangle. He planted a seed, but the seed needed dire circumstances to start to grow. One could ask if without this seed anything would have grown at all.

1 hour ago, phoenix2563 said:

Intentional or not, Adolin has actually opened himself up to Shallan more than any other woman he has courted.  This could have a major impact to him at a deep level later on if the thing between Kaladin and Shallan grows.

Yeah and Hoid will be immensely pleased if something solid were to grow out of his seed because that's what he wants, somehow. And I hate him for it. 

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Plot twist: Adolin kills Kaladin to get Shallan. 

Good one.

[Calderis]

35 minutes ago, maxal said:

While it is true the casual is not the equivalent of a former betrothal, it is safe to say, at this point in time within the story, Shallan is Adolin's girldfriend. They are dating.

And I think this is placing modern constraints on a society that does not have them. 

In most mideivel societies, courtship was open. There was nothing to dating beyond getting to know one another. If the relationship was deemed both profitable and the pair compatible (although that was not always necessary) then an official relationship would be started with a betrothal. Until this point, neither party was required limited. There was no exclusivity. That was reserved for couples who had decided to move forward. 

Edit: we even see that this is the way that Alethi courtship functions from talk of Gavilar, Dalinar, and Navani. She played them against each other openly, and Dalinar stepped back once she'd chosen to move forward with Gavilar. I've always taken that to mean that once the relationship was made "official" he swore himself off. 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Calderis

[Fatling]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

While it is true the casual is not the equivalent of a former betrothal, it is safe to say, at this point in time within the story, Shallan is Adolin's girldfriend. They are dating. Thus to me, Hoid's behavior is akin to having this obnoxious guy everyone is wary around except you, this guy who isn't a friend but you genuinely like, who comes forth and bluntly tell this other guy to go forward and openly flirt with your girlfriend. Adolin may not have taken a formal engagement with Shallan and other men are probably free to court her, even if it would be highly improper (would you court someone else's girlfriend?), but it does not prevent the fact it remains the equivalent of calling dibs to someone else's girlfriend. This is not loyal, this is not honorable and really, it is rather mean. It shows a complete lack of concern towards this girl's boyfriend, as if he didn't matter, as if he didn't exist.

But well, Adolin isn't exactly a paragon of fidelity himself. So I don't see what's wrong with treading on his toes

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

And I think this is placing modern constraints on a society that does not have them. 

In most mideivel societies, courtship was open. There was nothing to dating beyond getting to know one another. If the relationship was deemed both profitable and the pair compatible (although that was not always necessary) then an official relationship would be started with a betrothal. Until this point, neither party was required limited. There was no exclusivity. That was reserved for couples who had decided to move forward. 

Edit: we even see that this is the way that Alethi courtship functions from talk of Gavilar, Dalinar, and Navani. She played them against each other openly, and Dalinar stepped back once she'd chosen to move forward with Gavilar. I've always taken that to mean that once the relationship was made "official" he swore himself off. 

And yet when Adolin is seen double booking dates, it is a scandal. If they were so open about courtships, if it was custom to allow multiple men to court the same woman (and vice-versa), then Adolin wouldn't have such a reputation. His behavior wouldn't be worth mentioning, but it is. Independently if it is acceptable or not, nobody who is seriously dating someone would be alright to have someone else jump in and start to court his partner. Nobody. It isn't even about custom, it is about human nature. Also, it was implied Adolin and Shallan were to be exclusive, that's why Dalinar agreed to the casual: to prevent other women from courting Adolin. That's the thing, Adolin hardly ever is the one doing the courting: he's the one being courted.

The Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar relationship has never been fleshed out and it won't be into the next book, if I am to trust The Thrill. However, seeing how Dalinar's courtship of Shshshsh absolutely did not go down the way we were told it did, I wouldn't be surprised if the same held for the Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar.

13 minutes ago, Fatling said:

But well, Adolin isn't exactly a paragon of fidelity himself. So I don't see what's wrong with treading on his toes

Based on what we know, Adolin isn't the one courting other women, he's the one other women are courting. He was dating another girl when Janala actively pursued him up until he booked a dinner with her which alternatively angered the first girl. You could say having someone take away his girl is only the return of the balance beam, but I say it remains disloyal. Hoid has done himself a pleasure to try to help the Radiant overcome their personal issues, even when they have chip above their shoulder the size of a boulder (and I am not thinking about Kaladin). Adolin has crippling relationship issues, so why is it Hoid cares nothing about helping him? He cares Renarin has self-confidence issues, but he cares not for Adolin having a mountain of pressure and profound issues with each and every one of his social interactions.

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

And yet when Adolin is seen double booking dates, it is a scandal.

There's a serious difference in terms of etiquette between courting two different people at the same time, and scheduling dates to overlap with one another at the literal same time. 

One is a matter of non-exclusivity, the other is just rude. 

14 minutes ago, maxal said:

If they were so open about courtships, if it was custom to allow multiple men to court the same woman (and vice-versa), then Adolin wouldn't have such a reputation.

The reason for Adolin's reputation has nothing to do with a single incident of double booking. It's the sheer number of women he's courted. 

In these types of societies, the purpose of courtship is to seriously persue an eventual relationship. The number of people he's offended proclaims pretty loudly that it's not a serious persuite for him. 

Most people would have at least settled long before the number of failed attempts. He would be seen as a "womanizer" purely for the numbers of people he'd courted without any need for untoward behavior. 

20 minutes ago, maxal said:

Independently if it is acceptable or not, nobody who is seriously dating someone would be alright to have someone else jump in and start to court his partner. Nobody. It isn't even about custom, it is about human nature. 

That's the point of the custom. For it to be considered "serious" in this setting would require an agreement and a betrothal. The idea of a "girlfriend" does not exist in such societies, at lease not in the upper societies. 

21 minutes ago, maxal said:

Also, it was implied Adolin and Shallan were to be exclusive, that's why Dalinar agreed to the casual: to prevent other women from courting Adolin. That's the thing, Adolin hardly ever is the one doing the courting: he's the one being courted.

I hardly see how that could be the case, as it is specifically mentioned that the causal was appealing because Adolin had offended every eligible woman of sufficient rank. 

There was no one left for the causal to scare away. 

[maxal]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

There's a serious difference in terms of etiquette between courting two different people at the same time, and scheduling dates to overlap with one another at the literal same time. 

One is a matter of non-exclusivity, the other is just rude. 

My point is while Janala was free to court a man already dating another girl, it did cause a scandal. I however agree it caused a scandal because Adolin responded to it. He later mentions she has been very persisting, but no so much once she got him.

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The reason for Adolin's reputation has nothing to do with a single incident of double booking. It's the sheer number of women he's courted. 

In these types of societies, the purpose of courtship is to seriously persue an eventual relationship. The number of people he's offended proclaims pretty loudly that it's not a serious persuite for him. 

Most people would have at least settled long before the number of failed attempts. He would be seen as a "womanizer" purely for the numbers of people he'd courted without any need for untoward behavior. 

Yes, of course we only saw three courtships within the books, but I do think the ones Brandon chose to show us have to be representative of Adolin's overall behavior. Also, Dalinar's insistence he wants the casual to prevent more women from courting Adolin as opposed to force him to be more serious and stop courting is rather telling. While yes Adolin's behavior is bad and reprehensible, it does seem he is not the one doing most of the courting: he's just responding to it too eagerly, he is easily manipulated into jumping from one relationship to the next. So far, it has suited him because he yearns for his relationships to break down, even if he won't admit it.

I find it rather odd Adolin is the one carrying the bad reputation when he is not the one doing the courting. It is thus it would appear courting someone dating someone else is not frown upon, but responding to it, is.

Of course, people will always consider Adolin to be a womanizer just by the sheer number of girls he dated, it still doesn't make it alright for a man he has always been kind to to stab him in the back by encouraging someone else to steal the one relationship he actually seems to be able to withstand.

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's the point of the custom. For it to be considered "serious" in this setting would require an agreement and a betrothal. The idea of a "girlfriend" does not exist in such societies, at lease not in the upper societies. 

But my point is if such relationships are not considered serious, then why Adolin double booking dates is? If you can date/court as many people you wish, so long as you are not betrothed, then Adolin wouldn't have such a bad reputation, nobody would think ill of him. They would just think he is behaving like everyone else, but he isn't. What he does is shunned upon and looked down on.

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I hardly see how that could be the case, as it is specifically mentioned that the causal was appealing because Adolin had offended every eligible woman of sufficient rank. 

There was no one left for the causal to scare away. 

During the first discussion in between Dalinar and Shallan, Dalinar explicitly states he wants Adolin to appear unavailable for those who would seek his attentions in order to manipulate him for their political games. Adolin thinks it might be a good idea to have something more serious in place, but Dalinar's reasons for doing it isn't because his son offended too many high ranked ladies, it merely is to keep them away from his son. The "he has offended every woman of sufficient rank" comes from Jasnah and likely it was one of her selling points, but she then confessed she hardly had to sell the idea. Dalinar, him, was appealed to see Danlan calling on Adolin three days after arriving in camp, even more so to see Adolin respond to it eagerly. He put a stop to it. Also, Dalinar doesn't seem to care about the rank of the girls Adolin is courting: he himself has not always been of high rank.

[Andy92]

I don't want Wit to be nice to people...his demeaning sarcasm is why I enjoy his character. 

[Seloun]

On 8/16/2017 at 11:13 AM, StormblessDave said:

Who's your most overhyped character in the stormlight archives series so far?

Mine is definitely Lift - Unfortunately, I don't get her sense of humour and I find her irritating. This made Edgedancer a tough read for me(very well written otherwise), however seeing her character development at the end of edgedancer did make begin to like her.

The humor isn't really the appealing part of Lift (for me, anyway). And indeed, I found her initial interlude story pretty annoying - until:

Quote

“Why do you care?” Wyndle asked again. He sounded curious. Not a challenge. An attempt to understand.

“Because someone has to.”

...

She set Gawx on his back, face toward the sky. He wasn’t really anything to her, that was true. They’d barely just met, and he’d been a fool. She’d told him to go back.

But this was who she was, who she had to be.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 704). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

The last sentence I always find to be especially haunting, and more than anything else puts Lift into context: She's the one who listens and remembers. Her irreverence is almost more of a means of coping, something that Edgedancer seems to convey pretty well.

On topic: I found Dalanar to be somewhat overhyped. Especially in WoR, he really doesn't do all that much and a lot of his talks are of somewhat questionable reasoning. Kaladin and Syl shills for Dalanar a lot, but for the most part it's just that he's not a complete monster or completely incompetent like the other leaders. Don't get me wrong, I like Dalanar for the most part; I just think he's not really the paragon of virtue that a lot of characters seem to think he is.

[WhiteLeeopard]

3 hours ago, Seloun said:

On topic: I found Dalanar to be somewhat overhyped. Especially in WoR, he really doesn't do all that much and a lot of his talks are of somewhat questionable reasoning. Kaladin and Syl shills for Dalanar a lot, but for the most part it's just that he's not a complete monster or completely incompetent like the other leaders. Don't get me wrong, I like Dalanar for the most part; I just think he's not really the paragon of virtue that a lot of characters seem to think he is.

Agree. I didn't mention him as was thinking of this thread as overhyped from readers perspective, but looked from in world perspective I agree Dalinar is off the charts. Then again the most in-world overhyped character is probably Gavilar . 

[StormblessDave]

Dalinar is probably the most honourable character in the book so far(arguable). He's had visions from the Almighty, he's a legendary warrior, doing his best to be a politician and failing(he's becoming better), has a good code of ethics that he sticks to(he does go a bit extreme with this though, forcing it on sons). I agree he's not a great father, and does make mistakes, but doesn't everyone? Storms! Kaladin killed Syl! He's such a great character with excellent character development.

[WhiteLeeopard]

38 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

Dalinar is probably the most honourable character in the book so far(arguable). He's had visions from the Almighty, he's a legendary warrior, doing his best to be a politician and failing(he's becoming better), has a good code of ethics that he sticks to(he does go a bit extreme with this though, forcing it on sons). I agree he's not a great father, and does make mistakes, but doesn't everyone? Storms! Kaladin killed Syl! He's such a great character with excellent character development.

I can see why Dalinar is admired by readers, but I never fully liked him. He trusted Sadeas when it was obvious he was shady and got 6000 soldiers killed for it. He doesn't treat Adolin too well, he coddles Renarin to the point that Renarin seems even more insecure than if he had been treated normally, he makes no effort to teach Elhokar to be a true king. He has put Gavilar on a pedestal, and refuses to even hear when people subtly say he should look more closely. 

I think my biggest problem with Dalinar is that for me, what truly defines a character is what, or who he cares for, and fights for. What does Dalinar fight/care for? His brother's memory? His guilt over Gavilar's death? None of these seem very healthy, or good reasons to fight. Why? Because they come from negative emotions, guilt, hate, revenge. And because they are mired in the past. If Dalinar moves on to something better to fight for, and for better reasons like unity for Roshar out of a wish to save his people or to create a better future, then I will likely view him more positively. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Toaster Retribution]

27 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think my biggest problem with Dalinar is that for me, what truly defines a character is what, or who he cares for, and fights for. What does Dalinar fight/care for? His brother's memory? His guilt over Gavilar's death? None of these seem very healthy, or good reasons to fight. Why? Because they come from negative emotions, guilt, hate, revenge. And because they are mired in the past. If Dalinar moves on to something better to fight for, and for better reasons like unity for Roshar out of a wish to save his people or to create a better future, then I will likely view him more positively. 

I feel like he is fighting for Roshar now though. He fought the Parshendi for Gavilar (mostly). But when it comes to the Desolation and the Voidbringers, he fights for the human race, not for Gavilar or even Alethkar. I think we have reached the point where Dalinar is doing what he does for a truly good cause (survival of mankind).

[WhiteLeeopard]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

I feel like he is fighting for Roshar now though. He fought the Parshendi for Gavilar (mostly). But when it comes to the Desolation and the Voidbringers, he fights for the human race, not for Gavilar or even Alethkar. I think we have reached the point where Dalinar is doing what he does for a truly good cause (survival of mankind).

I think he may be about to. But he hasn't yet. After all seeing him fight for Roshar for the last 2 pages of WoR doesn't feel as long enough to leave me with the impression that he has truly left the past in the past. 

[Mason Wheeler]

6 hours ago, Seloun said:

On topic: I found Dalanar to be somewhat overhyped. Especially in WoR, he really doesn't do all that much and a lot of his talks are of somewhat questionable reasoning. Kaladin and Syl shills for Dalanar a lot, but for the most part it's just that he's not a complete monster or completely incompetent like the other leaders. Don't get me wrong, I like Dalanar for the most part; I just think he's not really the paragon of virtue that a lot of characters seem to think he is.

Isn't that the point of Adolin's scene with Kaladin, discussing how Amaram is a bad guy?

Adolin basically says (paraphrasing here) "My father is the best man I know, but even he has some very serious character flaws that I'm fully aware of.  But Amaram has this reputation for being absolutely perfect in every conceivable way, and that's just not how real people are, so you know he has to be using that to hide something really ugly."

[StormblessDave]

3 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Isn't that the point of Adolin's scene with Kaladin, discussing how Amaram is a bad guy?

Adolin basically says (paraphrasing here) "My father is the best man I know, but even he has some very serious character flaws that I'm fully aware of.  But Amaram has this reputation for being absolutely perfect in every conceivable way, and that's just not how real people are, so you know he has to be using that to hide something really ugly."

Very well said, No one is perfect.

[maxal]

15 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I can see why Dalinar is admired by readers, but I never fully liked him. He trusted Sadeas when it was obvious he was shady and got 6000 soldiers killed for it. He doesn't treat Adolin too well, he coddles Renarin to the point that Renarin seems even more insecure than if he had been treated normally, he makes no effort to teach Elhokar to be a true king. He has put Gavilar on a pedestal, and refuses to even hear when people subtly say he should look more closely. 

I think my biggest problem with Dalinar is that for me, what truly defines a character is what, or who he cares for, and fights for. What does Dalinar fight/care for? His brother's memory? His guilt over Gavilar's death? None of these seem very healthy, or good reasons to fight. Why? Because they come from negative emotions, guilt, hate, revenge. And because they are mired in the past. If Dalinar moves on to something better to fight for, and for better reasons like unity for Roshar out of a wish to save his people or to create a better future, then I will likely view him more positively. 

I too always had issues with Dalinar. While I respect his sense of honor and his personal obligation to see through with his word, his straight-forwardness, I dislike his rigidity. I dislike his personal biases wanting him to always emotionally favor Elhokar/Renarin as opposed to Adolin. I hate how he spoiled those two, how he is partly responsible for Renarin being so broken by refusing to give him any worth, by treating him like broken vase needing to be cared for endlessly as opposed to someone actually apt to contribute, how he made Adolin grow up thinking he was not good enough for love, how Elhokar became a worst king due to his endless endorsement of his weaknesses. I don't hate that he is a flawed father, in fact I love this about his character because it makes him more interesting to read, but I hate he never acknowledged his failings. I also do think guilt has caused him to make too many decisions, especially considering his kiddies. 

Well, hate is a big word: I don't hate Dalinar, I find all of this and so much more is what will make Oathbringer fun to read, but I do think people are putting him on a pedestal.

16 hours ago, StormblessDave said:

Dalinar is probably the most honourable character in the book so far(arguable). He's had visions from the Almighty, he's a legendary warrior, doing his best to be a politician and failing(he's becoming better), has a good code of ethics that he sticks to(he does go a bit extreme with this though, forcing it on sons). I agree he's not a great father, and does make mistakes, but doesn't everyone? Storms! Kaladin killed Syl! He's such a great character with excellent character development.

This has been bothering me the most, not the fact he isn't a great father (I actually find it has potential to yield compelling story arcs, especially with Adolin, if Brandon goes this way), but the fact many readers insist he is.

Edited August 25, 2017 by maxal

[Nathrangking]

8 minutes ago, maxal said:

I too always had issues with Dalinar. While I respect his sense of honor and his personal obligation to see through with his word, his straight-forwardness, I dislike his rigidity. I dislike his personal biases wanting him to always emotionally favor Elhokar/Renarin as opposed to Renarin. I hate how he spoiled those two, how he is partly responsible for Renarin being so broken by refusing to give him any worth, by treating him like broken vase needing to be cared for endlessly as opposed to someone actually apt to contribute, how he made Adolin grow up thinking he was not good enough for love, how Elhokar became a worst king due to his endless endorsement of his weaknesses. I don't hate that he is a flawed father, in fact I love this about his character because it makes him more interesting to read, but I hate he never acknowledged his failings. I also do think guilt has caused him to make too many decisions, especially considering his kiddies. 

Well, hate is a big word: I don't hate Dalinar, I find all of this and so much more is what will make Oathbringer fun to read, but I do think people are putting him on a pedestal.

This has been bothering me the most, not the fact he isn't a great father (I actually find it has potential to yield compelling story arcs, especially with Adolin, if Brandon goes this way), but the fact many readers insist he is.

I wholeheartedly agree and I too have been bothered by Dalinar though not precisely for all of the same reasons. 1) I am annoyed about how his naivety has for the most part gone unpunished. He has not truly felt the consequences of being as naive as he is save the incident on the tower.2) His flaws seem too small for a character of his importance. He comes off as almost too honorable and just despite what we know about him. These combined with what you have said truly makes his character one that seems too overhyped.