Compounding enhanced Allomancy

[Calderis]

I feel stupid for not seeing this earlier, and I'm sure it's been brought up and I just missed it. 

"Normal" compounding uses Allomancy to supercharge a feruchemical ability. There's supposed to be a way to do the reverse and I've seen it discussed but never answered. 

Did the Bands show us? Is nicrosil Feruchemy to store and tap Allomancy the reverse "compounding" and I just took it for granted? I mean, if you can store and tap allomantic ability, you can supercharge your Allomantic strength via Feruchemy, which seems to be the definition of compounding. 

Am I missing something more, or was this already recognized and I'm blind? 

[Agent34]

I recall a WoB mentioning TLR's uber-Soothing was related to Compounding. What you've suggested could be the case or some quirk of nicrosil Feruchemy that we just can't understand at this point.

[Calderis]

28 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

I recall a WoB mentioning TLR's uber-Soothing was related to Compounding. What you've suggested could be the case or some quirk of nicrosil Feruchemy that we just can't understand at this point.

I think this proves that nicrosil isn't compounding then. I'll have to look for that WoB. Unless I'm mistaken, nicrosil and Chromium simply weren't technologically available pre-catacendre, so if TLR used compounding fueled Allomancy, nicrosil can't be the key. 

Edit: found it. Reading it I know I've seen it before. Unless he had a secret way of producing Chromium and Nicrosil I guess that kills that idea 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1011#11

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

I continued to ask about the Lord Ruler and his Allomantic strength. There's an upper bound to the amount of power you can get from being a savant. Brandon said that, obviously, the Lord Ruler wasn't using duralumin and Elend could only get that powerful in Soothing using duralumin. He implied that there was a way to Compound to enhance Allomancy. (Note, we have discussed this on the forums a while back. This isn't news.)

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Calderis

[Yata]

For now the only "reverse Compounding" we could imagine is through Nicrosil-Feruchemy (and to be honest I like this).

 

Unluckly we don't know if TLR used an artificial way to boost his allomancy (other than having an overolming raw power to begin with), in theory He could produce or retrive some Nicrosil during his Ascension or from Scadrial's old days (where the technology was far advanced) but I think he didn't this.

For now, I don't think TLR used "reverse compounding" or other specific technique to be as Strong as we saw. His "basic Allomantic power" (thanks to his auto re-build with the Well) and going further in the Savantism could be enough in theory.

To me that WoB is wrongly extrapolated because at the WoB's time we believed TLR used a Lerasium's bead to gain his Allomancy (and therefore a comparation to a Lerasium Mistborn's feats was relevant). While now we know TLR rebuild himself with the Well's Power to be the strongest Allomancer he could....So TLR's base Allomancy could be twice or more stronger than Elend's one as far as we know

Edited August 12, 2017 by Yata

[AbsentKeeper]

I assumed that nicrosil feuruchemy was exactly what Brandon was referring to as 'Allomantic compounding' and I don't think that TLR's soothing conradicts this at all.

TLR's soothing was the result of his raw power and the fact that he was a savant in almost every metal.

Quote

• THEFINISHER4EVER ()

  Was the Lord Ruler using feruchemy + allomancy to soothe all of the people around him? Or was he, as I like to think, flaring for so long that he became a Soother Savant?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  He lived long enough and used his metals enough (particularly Soothing) to become nearly a savant in every area, if not a full savant.

I'm behind this theory 100%.

Edit: I haven't seen the proposed WoB about TLR using reverse compounding, but if it exists, it would pretty heavily contradict the one I found.

Edit again: went back and read that WoB @Calderis but it seems rather vague, I don't know that we can count that as definitive. Either way, we have some contradictions now.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[+hwiles]

We never see TLR drink metal vials and, considering how arbitrarily invincible he was, he kept relatively few metalminds on his person. The BoM, filled to bursting, only allowed Wax to replicate TLR's power for a few minutes.

I feel like there was definitely something else going on with TLR's powers than standard compounding. Sazed, Kelsier, and Trell are the only beings whose knowledge and mastery of the metallic arts can be meaningfully compared to TLR's. My best guess is that his ungodly strength had to do with burning hemalurgic  spikes. Since the powers stolen by spikes don't line up correctly with the metals used to access those powers, with enough knowledge and preparation, a fullborn might be able to use hemalurgy to fuel their allomancy using the "wrong" metals...3 intermingling magic systems makes things crazy complicated...

[Rhi Bran]

@Cowmanthethird

That WoB is really news to me. I thought Brandon had previously said that you couldn't become a savant if you had too many powers within you and that's why mistborn did not become savants

[+Extesian]

3 minutes ago, Rhi Bran said:

@Cowmanthethird

That WoB is really news to me. I thought Brandon had previously said that you couldn't become a savant if you had too many powers within you and that's why mistborn did not become savants

You're thinking of resonances

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, Rhi Bran said:

@Cowmanthethird

That WoB is really news to me. I thought Brandon had previously said that you couldn't become a savant if you had too many powers within you and that's why mistborn did not become savants

That's not about Savants. That's about resonances. The additional perks for having multiple powers 

[Steeldancer]

I always thought you could store your steelpush in a steel mind. Then you could use that steel push from the steel mind at an enhanced rate, all at once to get a super push. 

[AbsentKeeper]

5 hours ago, Flash said:

I always thought you could store your steelpush in a steel mind. Then you could use that steel push from the steel mind at an enhanced rate, all at once to get a super push. 

From what we know so far, which isn't that much to be fair, all allomantic and feurchemical abilities are stored this way in nicrosil, by a twinborn/fullborn who can use both (filling the nicrosilmind with the 'ability to burn steel'), not by storing them in the metal associated with the specific power.

[+hwiles]

9 hours ago, Flash said:

I always thought you could store your steelpush in a steel mind. Then you could use that steel push from the steel mind at an enhanced rate, all at once to get a super push. 

This idea has some legitimate realmatic merit.  My understanding of the focii for the metallic arts is that if you burn steel, the Investiture that is filling you up, should be exactly the right "shape" to be funneled into a steel mind.  IE: When you store speed in a steelmind, you're storing "steel-shaped" Investiture.  Normal compounding involves adding a feruchemic charge prior to burning the metal, so presumably, if you didn't add that feruchemic charge, you could store the allomantic power in some way.

However, to the best of knowledge, we've never seen anyone try this type of compounding, and Sanderson has refused to answer questions about it.  Please correct me if there's anything other than RAFO's on these, as I believe it's been brought up a few times.

[Yata]

11 hours ago, hwiles said:

This idea has some legitimate realmatic merit.  My understanding of the focii for the metallic arts is that if you burn steel, the Investiture that is filling you up, should be exactly the right "shape" to be funneled into a steel mind.  IE: When you store speed in a steelmind, you're storing "steel-shaped" Investiture.  Normal compounding involves adding a feruchemic charge prior to burning the metal, so presumably, if you didn't add that feruchemic charge, you could store the allomantic power in some way.

However, to the best of knowledge, we've never seen anyone try this type of compounding, and Sanderson has refused to answer questions about it.  Please correct me if there's anything other than RAFO's on these, as I believe it's been brought up a few times.

I strongly desagree with the possibility to store Steelpush into a Steelmind. But of course my position is good as your.

The attribute storable into a metalmind is fixed. it's mostly like a keyhole, the Feruchemist pushes himself aganist and the appropriate attribute could actually pass it and nothing else.

The metal is important of course also in the others Metal Arts in different ways, in allomancy the metal acts mainly as a form to define the Preservation's raw power. While in Hemalurgy the Metal acts most likely as it acts in feruchemy.

This is the tricky part, when you turn a piece of metal into a Metalmind or a Spike, you are actually changing the keyhole and this enable the Compounding and whatever we could call burning Spikes. When Preservation's power is filtrer by the Metalmind/Spike it find an alterated "form".

But to make your point works, you need a way to deformed the Steel's keyhole to accomodate Steelpush into.

Notice that if your idea is right, the trick has to work with the Spike's proprierties too. So as the Steel Spike could contain physical Allomancy power you have to be able to store your physical Allomany power in it, something really similar (but restricted to an Allomantic Quadrant) to Nicrosil Feruchemy.

With the workaround the Souther made into the Medalions I think this possibility is really unlikely or they would be able to performe some "TLR level feat" quite easly and the BoM will be mostly a relique and not a overpowered weapon.

[Lord Bookwyrm]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

It's mostly like a keyhole, the Feruchemist pushes himself aganist and the appropriate attribute could actually pass it and nothing else.

 

More like a filter than a keyhole, then.

[Calderis]

I agree with @Yata. I always imagined it something like this. 

When you burn steel for a push, power pours in and is shaped by the metals structure and blue lines pop up in your vision, you decide to push and more flows through, but it's the same shape, same with flaring. 

When you store speed, the structure of the metal is exactly the same, but instead of just acting like a shaped nozzle, it has to hold the power, so it gets fit into the structure and conforms to its own set shape. 

So when you burn a feruchemically charged piece of steel, the power pours in like normal, hits the already stored investiture, and rather than being shaped by the metal itself, it shapes itself to the power already inside the metal. 

Trying to store your ability to push with steel is an investiture shape that doesn't fit into a steelmind, because steel can only store speed.

The shape of your ability to push on steel, isn't the same shape as the power takes on when your pushing on steel. Does that make sense? 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Calderis

[The One Who Connects]

On 8/17/2017 at 0:43 AM, hwiles said:

My best guess is that his[TLR] ungodly strength had to do with burning Hemalurgic spikes.

Since the powers stolen by spikes don't line up correctly with the metals used to access those powers, with enough knowledge and preparation, a fullborn might be able to use Hemalurgy to fuel their Allomancy using the "wrong" metals...3 intermingling magic systems makes things crazy complicated...

I'm not gonna go into the rabbit hole of the logistical issues with your fueling via the wrong metals idea. It seems doable, if a little inconsistently.

---

I'm gonna ask why nobody but me seems to think that his extraordinary strength was because he rebuilt himself to be as powerful as possible via The Well, combined with becoming a Savant to go even higher. Everybody seems to push for this(Nicrosil) or that(burning spikes) extra layer of difficulty that he might have done to make him stronger, when we have a perfectly reasonable option that we know he did to get stronger.

He used that power to move a planet. It seems odd that people don't even consider that same power as the cause of his immense magical strength.

[+hwiles]

I think it's because there are some old WoB that say more or less outright that TLR's strength comes from his mixing all 3 metallic arts. Recently, I think Sanderson has begun to move away from this and toward your much simpler explanation. He used to say that TLR had hemalurgic spikes, but in the last year I think he has revised this. He used to say flat out that burning a spike wouldn't do anything, now he suggests it would do crazy stuff that's RAFOd. So I think it's all a little fluid for the moment, and also, you're probably spot on, but 2 or 3 years ago the available evidence would've indicated otherwise.

[Steeldancer]

Well I think you guys are over thinking it. What we need is for a compounder to do their allomantic compounding on screen. 

How I've always thought of it is just like when Vin discusses it in the first book. They have the same type of thing. Just as you can access your own "speed metal," you can create your own "push mind." It just feels logical that it would work that way.

Also this must be known to the Kandra, because otherwise how did they ever plan on refilling the bands of mourning? It's only doable through compounding allomancy and feruchemy. Did Wax have to use up nicrosil investiture when he used the Bands? I'm not sure he did. 

[asterion137]

49 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Did Wax have to use up nicrosil investiture when he used the Bands? I'm not sure he did. 

He did. 

Quote

His resources were diminishing. Not merely the metals inside of him, but the reserves stored inside the Bands. Stores that changed is level of Investiture.

BoM Chapter 29

 

[Yata]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm not gonna go into the rabbit hole of the logistical issues with your fueling via the wrong metals idea. It seems doable, if a little inconsistently.

---

I'm gonna ask why nobody but me seems to think that his extraordinary strength was because he rebuilt himself to be as powerful as possible via The Well, combined with becoming a Savant to go even higher. Everybody seems to push for this(Nicrosil) or that(burning spikes) extra layer of difficulty that he might have done to make him stronger, when we have a perfectly reasonable option that we know he did to get stronger.

He used that power to move a planet. It seems odd that people don't even consider that same power as the cause of his immense magical strength.

I think the same ;-)

4 hours ago, hwiles said:

I think it's because there are some old WoB that say more or less outright that TLR's strength comes from his mixing all 3 metallic arts. Recently, I think Sanderson has begun to move away from this and toward your much simpler explanation. He used to say that TLR had hemalurgic spikes, but in the last year I think he has revised this. He used to say flat out that burning a spike wouldn't do anything, now he suggests it would do crazy stuff that's RAFOd. So I think it's all a little fluid for the moment, and also, you're probably spot on, but 2 or 3 years ago the available evidence would've indicated otherwise.

As far as I remember the TLR's Spikes was a misunderstood WoB. Brandon meant the Metalminds pierced the TLR but that was not Hemalurgic Spikes

4 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Also this must be known to the Kandra, because otherwise how did they ever plan on refilling the bands of mourning? It's only doable through compounding allomancy and feruchemy. Did Wax have to use up nicrosil investiture when he used the Bands? I'm not sure he did. 

The Bands' Allomancy&Feruchemy will be refilled with Nicrosil Compound while the rest of the Attributes with the appropriate Metal Compound

Quote

How I've always thought of it is just like when Vin discusses it in the first book. They have the same type of thing. Just as you can access your own "speed metal," you can create your own "push mind." It just feels logical that it would work that way.

What Vin's line do  you refer here ?

Edited September 12, 2017 by Yata

[Steeldancer]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

I think the same ;-)

As far as I remember the TLR's Spikes was a misunderstood WoB. Brandon meant the Metalminds pierced the TLR but that was not Hemalurgic Spikes

The Bands' Allomancy&Feruchemy will be refilled with Nicrosil Compound while the rest of the Attributes with the appropriate Metal Compound

What Vin's line do  you refer here ?

How she can't access the mind Sazed gives her. 

Idk, I've always felt it was simple. 

[Yata]

5 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

How she can't access the mind Sazed gives her. 

Idk, I've always felt it was simple. 

She could not access the metalmind because her Identity and the Metalmind's Identity didn't match...It's a matter of Investiture Interference

[+hwiles]

What always weirded me out was that Vin could sense Sazeds stored attribute despite not being a feruchemist.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

What always weirded me out was that Vin could sense Sazeds stored attribute despite not being a feruchemist.

She didn’t at first. She had to be think about it being there and recognize it Cognitively before she could. 

Which sounds suspiciously similar to the way we've seen people interact with medallions. 

[YungDankBlast]

Oh my goodness, yes!  This is my favorite thing to speculate and theorize on in relation to the world of Mistborn.

The way that I see it, there is Investiture (capital I) and there is investiture (lowercase i).  Investiture is the ability to perform Allomancy or Feruchemy in certain metal(s), and investiture is the power stored or gained through performing those arts.  Nicrosil stores Investiture (capital I).  Regardless of whether or not TLR used nicrosil or whether or not you consider it compounding, Nicrosil should work just as any other Feruchemical metal, meaning you can tap the nicrosilmind at a faster rate for more Allomantic Investiture (capital I) boosting your Allomancy.

I started a similar thread digger deeper into the basic compounding mechanics between the three arts, even including Hemalurgy if anyone wants to check it out here: