Jump to content

Wierd Elhokar RAFO


Recommended Posts

card_rafo.jpg

Not every RAFO hides a secret; it's just that Brandon isn't obligated to answer every question. He might have a nice little scene planned between Kaladin and Elhokar in Oathbringer, and will touch on the topic there. Or it might just be something that he's fine with being vague on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

sometimes brandon rafo innocent stuff just to keep us guessing on what may or may not be important. other times it's unimportant and he never bothered to decide it, but again, he doesn't want to say it's unimportant.

then again, there are lots of things going on with elokhar that we don't know of. he was seeing spren at some point. so, it could reallly be anything

EDIT: ninja'ed

Edited by king of nowhere
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doesn't mean anything. As others have said, a RAFO doesn't mean, yes Elhokar is seeing sprens and has been surgebinding which is why he saw Kaladin's drawing stormlight. It most probably means: "I know I have left you clues which may indicate Elhokar is perhaps potentially forming a Nahel bond, but I will not give the confirmation as to whether or not this is the case yet.".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Elhokar is a character which has always slightly pissed me off. Mainly because he seems to have a lot of faults due to carelessness, which to me is a lot worse than selfishness, or anger issues, or fanatism. Just been uncaring of whether people die for him, or his uncle is in danger because of him etc. If this RAFO turns out to be hiding something it might be interesting, and start showing Elhokar in another light. 

Also, congratulations @maxal on new title! Although I find it a bit creepy that the title after Radiant Knight is Voidbringer :P.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Elhokar is a character which has always slightly pissed me off. Mainly because he seems to have a lot of faults due to carelessness, which to me is a lot worse than selfishness, or anger issues, or fanatism.

This strikes me as an application of the fundamental attribution error. You attribute his carelessness internally to his own thoughts and feelings. I'm not sure I would characterise it internally, but rather externally. Elhokar seems careless, but in truth he strikes me as rather more powerless. He's a king, yes, but he has no real power. The high princes are largely divided and independent, only present in a "unified" kingdom because Elhokar has given them no reason not to be. If he were to actually wield any power the kingdom would fall apart in short order. Only Dalinar and Sadeas had any real ability to wield power, because they could enforce it. Consider also that so much of Alethi society is dictated by tradition. Elhokar doesn't loan his shards out because he wants to, he does it because he has to, it's expected. Lighteyes get exiled instead of executed, because that's how things are done. Adolin must fight his duel severely handicapped because despite it being clear to all parties what the intent of the agreement was, tradition dictates it still be followed to the letter.

No, I would say Elhokar cares, probably more than we see, but he is powerless and terrified because he's adrift on a raging river with no way to reach the shore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know Elhokar has his reasons for being as he is, but that was never a good enough excuse for me. If he personally gets dozens killed for his ego, its on him, regardless of circumstances and conditions. If he throws away all the careful preparation his family had done, and risked, to trap a powerful enemy because of a fit of anger, its on him. If we started considering all the conditions and stress people were under when committing a crime I'm sure no-one would be guilty of anything as everyone has good reasons for it. A person that is scared when they shoot someone to prove how strong they are is no less a murderer. That been said, while Elhokar irritates me, I don't think he is what would be qualified as evil, so far, there is still enough room for him to become better in my eyes, but so far he just irks me. 

Also, awesome signature aemetha!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@aemetha Your absolutely correct (in my opinion). Don't get me wrong here. I despise Elhokar. He's a coward. He let's that fear and feelings of powerlessness rule him. He tries to put forward a falsely confident face and cowers, while ignoring the political situations that would allow him to actually change his situation.

He's far more concerned with how he appears than with what he actually does. Even when he cries to Kaladin, it's all about the way they are viewed, and not what they've done. 

Intentionally or not, he's completely self centered, and oblivious to the pain and hardship of others. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@WhiteLeeopard and @CalderisI don't disagree with either of you there. I more meant to suggest I don't attribute it to carelessness. The way I see it in the situation Elhokar finds himself in, is you can react generally in one of two ways. You can stop trying and simply let things continue in the manner they always have (which seems largely to have been his approach) or you can try and change the situation. I don't think that's quite the same thing as not caring or carelessness though. I think he cares, he simply doesn't have the confidence to take the second option, and so defaults to the first. It's not a good excuse, and it's certainly not something admirable or absolving of wrongdoing, but it does give me a little hope for the characters future.

I think of it like this, Elhokar is concerned with how he looks, because he attributes his continued existence to not rocking the boat. It's cowardly for sure, though not particularly unrelatable. To put it in the context of the earlier analogy, I can care for people and still murder a person to look good, if I think the consequences of not looking good may be fatal for me. It would make me a coward and a murderer by our standards absolutely, but I can certainly understand the motivation. I would have never stopped caring for others, I just cared more about myself. Of course I'd never actually do that, because cowardly people don't get to eat Darkness' lunch ;).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I feel a lot of pity for Elhokar. Sure, he's a coward, sure, he's selfish, but he had a pretty terrible time of it growing up. He was born a prince, the son of two geniuses in their own right, the younger brother of another genius, and the cousin of a playboy dueling champion. Already, he's the odd one out, and yet he's the one who's going to be king some day. That's enough to cause some self confidence problems already, living among the Alethi nobility. Then, his father is assassinated completely unexpectedly, leaving him in control of a kingdom, sort of. (I agree with you, @aemetha, about tradition ruling more than the throne does. That said, it could be that a stronger willed king could attempt to make some changes). As king, Dalinar and Sadeas hold more sway than Elhokar, which doesn't help things, and so on and so forth. Obviously, this isn't new to anyone. I just think it's good to keep in mind. 

That said, Elhokar annoys the absolute heck out of me. I can't stand him. But I'm super excited to see where he goes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Elhokar is a character which has always slightly pissed me off. Mainly because he seems to have a lot of faults due to carelessness, which to me is a lot worse than selfishness, or anger issues, or fanatism. Just been uncaring of whether people die for him, or his uncle is in danger because of him etc. If this RAFO turns out to be hiding something it might be interesting, and start showing Elhokar in another light. 

Also, congratulations @maxal on new title! Although I find it a bit creepy that the title after Radiant Knight is Voidbringer :P.

:o:o:o I had not seen it... So I went from Knight Radiant to Voidbringer... I can't say I find the progression, huh, positive?

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

He's far more concerned with how he appears than with what he actually does. Even when he cries to Kaladin, it's all about the way they are viewed, and not what they've done. 

This is exactly why I hate Elhokar and I can't see him as a Radiant. He has never lift one finger for people other then himself. Readers praise him on how he talked to Kaladin, but when we read him carefully: it has all about him, how others view him, how they can think of him as a hero. It has never been on how to really be a good king, so yeah, I despise him. Maybe he can grow, but I doubt it.

45 minutes ago, Contessa said:

Personally, I feel a lot of pity for Elhokar. Sure, he's a coward, sure, he's selfish, but he had a pretty terrible time of it growing up. He was born a prince, the son of two geniuses in their own right, the younger brother of another genius, and the cousin of a playboy dueling champion. Already, he's the odd one out, and yet he's the one who's going to be king some day. That's enough to cause some self confidence problems already, living among the Alethi nobility. Then, his father is assassinated completely unexpectedly, leaving him in control of a kingdom, sort of. (I agree with you, @aemetha, about tradition ruling more than the throne does. That said, it could be that a stronger willed king could attempt to make some changes). As king, Dalinar and Sadeas hold more sway than Elhokar, which doesn't help things, and so on and so forth. Obviously, this isn't new to anyone. I just think it's good to keep in mind. 

That said, Elhokar annoys the absolute heck out of me. I can't stand him. But I'm super excited to see where he goes. 

Everyone understands Elhokar wasn't given the perfect conditions to become king, everyone understands it hasn't been easy. It doesn't however excuse him for his complete and total lack of concern towards the people he is supposed to rule, it doesn't excuse his desire to be revered, to be worshiped and it certainly doesn't excuse his carelessness doubled with his pettiness and his ill-placed anger.

Elhokar has not tried to be a good king for the right reasons: he has tried to be a good king so others could bath within his glory. Oh and he's a bully. I currently have little pity for him: circumstances do not excuse him. It gives him reasons to have issues, it doesn't give him reasons to be a mean bully.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I disagree. Elhokar is a product of his environment. By our standards he is a self-absorbed, mean, unconcerned, careless bully. Contextually he is exactly what he is supposed to be morally. He looks out for number one in a society that emphasises that so strongly that conflict is not just accepted, it is expected. This society has elevated individualism to the level of a virtue. These adjectives have meaning for us because we as a society have established norms that they deviate from. It's clear from Kaladins chapters that Elhokars actions don't really deviate from the norms of that world, rather the actions of certain other lighteyes (Wistiow, Amaram initially, Dalinar) deviate in the other direction.

A person is not evil because they do not choose to be the embodiment of good. Elhokar has no real power, and chose out of fear to not try to change that. As you say it gives him reasons to have issues, but it doesn't make him a mean bully in the context of that world, it just makes him unwilling to try to change the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel like I have to jump in and try to defend Elhokar a bit. As @Contessa said, Elhokar hasn't had the best of circumstances. Far from it. And yet he is tasked to rule the Highprinces, who are very hard to control. He also suffers from paranioa. 

Yes, he is selfish. Yes, he can be mean. Yes, his decisions are stupid. I think the point is that Elhokar tries to do the right thing. He tries to be intelligent, he tries to make the right decisions, he tries to be a good king. Sometimes (Kaladin in the arena) his jealousy and anger gets the better off him, which he admits, both to himself and to Kaladin. The fact that he is able to confront a Darkeyes he has wronged, admit his faults and ask for help is actually admirable, and it is an instance where he actually attempts to change his situation.

When it comes to wanting to look good vs actually help people, well, what role models did Elhokar have? Two blood-stained conquerors. A bunch of bickering, selfish politicians, in an environment where appearance means everything. If we add that to him always being put in someone elses shadow, well, it's no wonder that appearance is all that matters to Elhokar. Not everyone is Dalinar or Elend, strong enough to become good people in bad circumstances. Most people would be like Elhokar. 

I also want to add in that we don't know what Elhokar would do if he got respect and authority. We dont know how he would lead, or how good of a man he would be. I want to finish by pointing out one small thing Elhokar has done, by himself, that shows some kind of respect and care for others: he allowed the Darkeyes into the arena, at the expense of some Lighteyes. This is a small thing, but it shows that Elhokar has some care for others below him, and some ability to go against the wishes of others in order to do what is right. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, aemetha said:

I disagree. Elhokar is a product of his environment. By our standards he is a self-absorbed, mean, unconcerned, careless bully. Contextually he is exactly what he is supposed to be morally. He looks out for number one in a society that emphasises that so strongly that conflict is not just accepted, it is expected. This society has elevated individualism to the level of a virtue. These adjectives have meaning for us because we as a society have established norms that they deviate from. It's clear from Kaladins chapters that Elhokars actions don't really deviate from the norms of that world, rather the actions of certain other lighteyes (Wistiow, Amaram initially, Dalinar) deviate in the other direction.

A person is not evil because they do not choose to be the embodiment of good. Elhokar has no real power, and chose out of fear to not try to change that. As you say it gives him reasons to have issues, but it doesn't make him a mean bully in the context of that world, it just makes him unwilling to try to change the world.

I disagree. I find it reductionist to state every single lighteyed, besides a given few, are self-absorbed, mean, unconcerned and careless bullies. Truth is, apart from Sadeas, most lighteyed seemed to be the product of their society, true enough, but most of them absolutely does not come across as mean selfish bullies. I also severely critic the idea the behavior of a bully can be excused by his upbringing, especially not since the very same upbringing also gave us Adolin and Renarin whom aren't self-absorbed, nor unconcerned, nor bullies. Adolin even fights bullies. Upbringing can explain why an individual behaves the way he does, but it does not give him a free pass to ill-behaved in the name of his own greatness.

Elhokar is a bad person because he chose to behave like a bad person: he is unconcerned about other people's welfare, he care only about his personal glory to extends we haven't seen into other characters except a minority. He is selfish and spoiled. Does this makes him "evil", well, the term is perhaps strong, but it certainly does not make him a "good person".

9 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

he tries to be a good king.

This. Right here. This is the extract which has most people want to defend Elhokar, but he tries! The problem, as I see it, is being a good king absolutely does not mean, to Elhokar, what it ought to mean. In shorts, what he perceives to be a "good king" would be him being honored, glorified and bathing with the Almighty's glory. It does not mean what we might think it means which would be: be a good rule, make good decisions for the good of the kingdom. No. Elhokar wants to make the decisions which will make other people worship him.

That's why I dislike him and he plea to Kaladin doesn't do much for me.

9 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I also want to add in that we don't know what Elhokar would do if he got respect and authority. We dont know how he would lead, or how good of a man he would be. I want to finish by pointing out one small thing Elhokar has done, by himself, that shows some kind of respect and care for others: he allowed the Darkeyes into the arena, at the expense of some Lighteyes. This is a small thing, but it shows that Elhokar has some care for others below him, and some ability to go against the wishes of others in order to do what is right. 

This, I actually agree with. Elhokar is not all bad. He did do some good things. And we do not know what kind of ruler he'd be if he were given a real chance to rule. The problem lies in his overall attitude and his expectations of what being a ruler means/implies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maxal I can understand your dislike toward Elhokar, and I certainly admit that he has his fault. I remain of the opinion that the environment he has grown up in, and the situations he is thrust into, makes it easier to forgive and understand his faults. I feel great symphaty toward the guy, and like him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, CJ Feboris said:

I think we are about to see a dramatic shift in Elhokar's personality based on his near death experience. But he was whining at The Lopen's mom's house so we'll see. 

Being honest now, Elhokar isn't the only one who whines about herdazian food (yes Kaladin, I'm looking at you).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do give the guy some bonus points for (at least onscreen) not whining that he was too good to be at Lopen's mom's house. He was more like a temporary member of the family. And overall, that was a pretty comedic scene.

I'm mostly just curious to see where Elhokar goes from here. However we got to where we are, he is an interesting character with good potential for development in several directions now that he's had some possible "turning point moments" in WoR.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Flash said:

I agree with you there. 

But now everyone knows he is a radiant. So... whatever? I guess? 

Right, kind of moot now. Which I know the original intent of the question was more geared towards knowing if Elhokar could sense Stormlight in a way a normal person couldn't. It probably got RAFO'd just because Brandon didn't want to give any clues towards confirming or denying Elhokar as a KR or something else "not normal." 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, maxal said:

Everyone understands Elhokar wasn't given the perfect conditions to become king, everyone understands it hasn't been easy. It doesn't however excuse him for his complete and total lack of concern towards the people he is supposed to rule, it doesn't excuse his desire to be revered, to be worshiped and it certainly doesn't excuse his carelessness doubled with his pettiness and his ill-placed anger.

Alright, I can agree with you here. I don't think his upbringing excuses his actions or intents, but I still feel pity for him, which I presume is where we deviate from one another. It's hard for me to read the scene when he's talking to Kaladin near the end of WoR without feeling a mixture of contempt and pity, the former being for reasons you wrote, and the latter for reasons I wrote.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Contessa said:

Alright, I can agree with you here. I don't think his upbringing excuses his actions or intents, but I still feel pity for him, which I presume is where we deviate from one another. It's hard for me to read the scene when he's talking to Kaladin near the end of WoR without feeling a mixture of contempt and pity, the former being for reasons you wrote, and the latter for reasons I wrote.

The great thing about characters is our impressions of them is never fixed in time. While I feel strongly negatively about Elhokar now, it does not mean my thoughts on him won't evolve with the story. I'll however say his tirade to Kaladin wasn't enough for me to feel pity for him, but we'll see about future plot development.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just popping by to add that even Navani believes he's a horrible king. Good person, yes, but bad king. Once she broaches the subject Dalinar can see it too. I would tend to trust to her assessment of Elhokar rather than Kaladin's or Dalinar's (who are both biased in opposite directions). Navani is biased because she is his mother, but I subjectively feel that she is capable of seeing Elhokar more objectively lol.

Also, for my personal stance, I think he is a sincere person in his desire to be good, which goes a long way with me. He is even willing, against all societal proprieties, to ask for help and listen to a darkeyes. Yes he is prejudiced, yes he is paranoid, yes he is deeply flawed in many other ways, but he has my sympathy. If he were a real person, he would have my loyalty if he demonstrated to me that he could humbly accept advice, apologize when he is wrong, and learn from his mistakes. All 3 of those are shaky, but they have been demonstrated a little bit. I'm right on the edge of love/hate for him depending on his future decisions and growth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/8/2017 at 7:33 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

 If he personally gets dozens killed for his ego, its on him, regardless of circumstances and conditions.

But we do take those things into consideration. Circumstances, conditions, and the feelings of the perpetrator. In a court of law especially. Crimes of passion, first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter. Premeditated, aggravated, temporary insanity. We do it all the time. Doesn't push the crime to the side, but it does alter the punishment and sentence served.

My emotions for Elhokar change drastically over WoR. Had a love hate relationship with his screw ups lol. But by the end, where he gets all emotional with Kaladin when he's drunk, shifted me more towards feeling sorry for him. Dude just wants to be like his dad, basically. He just doesn't get that great people never think about being great, or being seen as great. They have great goals, and accomplish them.

As for him seeing Kal surgebind in the arena; He's already thinking he's crazy because he's (possibly) seeing Lie spren, so he may have just attributed it to that at the time. 

Im sure he will form a relationship with Kaladin now. I would like to see him trained by Kal or one of the Bridge 4 crew. Would help him a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...