How would you fix Aether?

[Pagerunner]

Welcome to all those who just got access. Now that we'll be getting a huge influx of new eyes, I'd like to know what other people think of this book. I, personally, really liked it; the characters were some of my favorites (I'm keeping my eye out for a one-armed worldhopper), the situation was suspenseful and engaging through most of the book, and the magic system is probably the closest we'll get to an elemental-style system from Brandon. I think, with a few fixes, this could easily be one of his strongest books.

So, first, what Brandon identified as being 'problematic' with this book:

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Brandon Sanderson

White Sand will definitely eventually be published. Aether of The Night, not so sure on, because Aether is two halves of two books that didn't fit together. The two pieces didn't mesh. White Sand is part of the sequence and will be done. Dragonsteel is part of the sequence and will be done, but it will be very different now that the Shattered Plains have been used in Way of Kings.

Source.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Aether is not published because I feel that I wrote two different books and didn't blend them together very well. There's kind of the farcical Shakespearean switch-places-silliness and it's fun but it's like mistaken identity almost, sort of stuff, and the romance. Mixed with these dark things are coming out of the shardpools and destroying the world. And these two stories never meshed together well enough for me to want to publish it.

Source.

And now, what I didn't enjoy about the book. I actually think the juxtaposition Brandon references was fine from Raeth's point of view; I find it very believable that during stressful times, he would continue to seek out romance. The big disconnect for me was after the battle when they 'defeated' the enemy at the gates of the city. I found that everything afterwards really undermined what had gone on before. Raeth had earned this victory; he had changed up tactics, made 'new' alliances, gained the respect of generals. But it was all a trick to engage the Amberite and Bestarin bonds in battle. I found the plan just too complex; if Night bonds can have their shadow creatures appear anywhere, why not just have them all appear in all the cities at the same time? (Like what they did at the end, at the Verdant source.) The Aedin kept records, to keep track of lines, so it wouldn't be hard to learn every Aedin and High Aedin that they need to kill. So, the whole 'trick' landed flat for me. Not just because I enjoyed the process of winning that war so much, but because the truth that replaced it really didn't make sense to me.

Also, I found that the 'second book' that didn't fit was when they set out to find the Verdant source. That felt like a sequel that was rushed and squashed in to the end of this book, since the paradigms were just so different. (No more secrets between main characters, quest vs politics/tactics, those sorts of things.) The good news is, I think most of this needs to be jettisoned, since it turned into Ruin and Preservation. This means the book needs a new ending (or at least a seriously revamped one), and I think it should get a new twist along the way. I don't know what Brandon had planned for the future of the Aether trilogy, but I suspect it involved the Fell Twins warring, possibly with new Aethers, with Decay behind them all trying to get them to destroy their world. Now, Aether can stand more on its own, focusing on the journey of Raeth and D'naa.

So, here's what I would do to fix my perceived issues:

• The romance/war parts that didn't mesh well could be improved by limiting the characters who actually participated in the first battle, when the living shadows first appeared. If most of the brides didn't actually see the shadows, then it would make more sense for them not to care about it. So, maybe D'naa goes out to find her grandparents, and a couple of the other brides go with her. But they all die; this could explain the lack of a Bestarin bride (she was there, but she went and got killed), and you could dispose of the Shorriken bride as well, who I don't think had any part at all following the book. (That would be a very interesting brief bit of characterization.) But if the Verdant, Ferrous, Mahallen, and Kavir brides were Sent from inside the tent, without seeing shadows, they wouldn't grasp exactly what was happening, and still be focused on their marriage machinations.
• Make the assault by the living shadows a legitimate plan, and not just a trick to get Aedin to the battlefield; they are actually trying to march on the city to kill half the Aedin living there. The normal use of the Aether is teleportation, but they are also able to control the pure essence from the Shardpool. Make Night bonds need to be present at the Shardpool to create a living shadow, so that way they can't break the game like they do in the scene at the Verdant source. The broad motivation of killing all Amberite and Bestarin, and the two Fell Twins trapped in Shardpools, would still be the driving force.
• After they defeat the living shadows, do not have them reform. The book, unfortunately, cannot end here (unless it's cut to novella length, but that's neither here nor there), so we need a way to escalate the conflict without undermining the defeat of the living shadows. Maybe have the Verdant leaders stage a coup and take over the city. Maybe have the Vo-Dari create Illuminous warriors, analogous to the living Shadows, and launch an attack out of the city. Regardless, still send Raeth on the run, where he can learn the big-picture stuff about the Fell Twins without needing to run his empire.
• The final climax of the book should involve the Harrmen. I was sure that's where the book was going to go, with the Harrmen being invited over the wall to crush the shadow warriors. (They are the only people in the world with experience fighting Aethers!)  Maybe the Harrmen will help them capture the city (and give Raeth the opportunity to destroy Agaris) in exchange for becoming members of the empire. Or maybe just for a bunch of land. For a book that is all about characters breaking established norms, I was a little disappointed that the Harrmen were still just barbarian boogeymen at the end of the book. (Maybe that was a plot point for the sequels.)
• Leave the Fell Twins dead. This is a book about freedom - Raeth escaping his station and choosing the bride he wants, Aethers becoming available to non-Aedins, and finally escaping the war of Agaris from so long ago. I think it would be a perfectly satisfying ending for Makkal to set Raeth free as he sacrifices himself to kill Agaris, and for the world to finally move away from the ancient conflicts that have driven them so. This could use a little more buildup, for the world being 'locked into' a path since ancient times, but that could be done with the Harrmen and the Seaborn (another major culture that is only tangentially referenced). Just a little more stuff like the Shentis, to show that the world is very much still in the thrall of the actions of the Fell Twins so long ago.

So, that's what I would do, if I were rewriting Aether. What do you think? What did you like about the book, what didn't sit well with you, and what would you do differently if Brandon asked you how to improve it?

[Weltall]

Ahh, so much to think about here and it is awesome how more people will be able to get the book now, and how quickly the posts are piling up in the request topic. Hopefully this board will become more lively in short order, even if we're still discussing something that's not canon until it's rewritten.

- I think that some of the big issues with the story and especially the ending can be resolved as a natural function of the rewrite For example we know that Brandon cannibalized elements from Aether to make Mistborn so all of those elements have to get modified as a matter of course. Removing or altering Decay and the Former (who became Ruin and Preservation) means that the shoehorned-in bit about the Verdant source can be removed entirely or repurposed. Agaris and Makkal's final clash sort of became the end of Hero of Ages but I would be okay with Brandon keeping that part wholesale as long as they stay dead.

- Brandon has mentioned that he never got more than a couple chapters (IIRC) into his thoughts on an Aether sequel and I doubt that's going to change so when he rewrites it, he's almost certainly going to tighten it up to be a self-contained story. That means that the last paragraph (which existed solely to set up a sequel that never happened) can be removed entirely. Especially if he also removes the Former/Decay plot and just focuses on the Fell Twins.

- I agree that keeping both halves of the story would be preferable and that reducing the number of bridal candidates early on would allow the remaining ones to be more developed. When you get down to it, only three of them are actual characters right now (D'Naa, Nahan and Alean, and see below for why I'd include Tae in the rewrite) so trimming out the other ones would tighten things up.

- The need to get Raeth out of the city and in a position to learn the history of the world from the Shentis and/or the Cognitive Shadow of the former Shard (see below) could be attained while also resolving a plot from the original novel that didn't go anywhere: Laene working for Agaris' agenda, knowing it would be the death of half the Aedins. It wouldn't be too difficult to manage either, have the Patriarch send a message to him after the battle with the Forgotten has been won, promising ruin to the entire world if Amberite and Bestarin are not destroyed. Laene works behind the scenes to persuade the Ferrous line to back him (for example 'join with me and Tae doesn't have to become a Corpate') and together they stage a coup. This drives the core cast out of the capital while setting up Laene for the comeuppance he didn't really get originally. As long as Alean isn't directly involved in this, her threat to Raeth can remain a factor until the end or she could be effectively removed from the choosing by association or by actual involvement in the coup. That might actually work better as the way she's disposed of in the current novel is kind of uncomfortable. And since Raeth realizes at the end that the senate figured out who he really was and it was a non-issue, Alean's threat to expose his true identity doesn't need to remain a factor all the way to the final chapter so long as it's present in the middle of the book where it's most relevant, along with the complications posed by Tae and Nahan.

- I would remove the Gol and the mentioned but never seen Viglix entirely. The one Gol we interact with contributes nothing that couldn't be done through Makkal's voice in Raeth's head and removing these races tightens up the worldbuilding a bit. I imagine Brandon had future plans for these but if those are never going to happen, they might as well be axed and more time spent on the things that are relevant to Aether's story. I do like the Shentis and want that to stay but I'd have Shateen get more screentime, sooner, so they aren't just an afterthought at the end of the book.

- I would devote a bit more page time to Ferrous bonds. How this Aether works realmatically would be an interesting topic of exploration and they were one of the least-developed aspects of the magic system. Making the Ferrous bride candidate a somewhat more prominent character would probably be the best way to do this without needing to add too many additional plotlines. For example, she could explain what it means to be a Ferrous Aedin to Raeth in the process of trying to convince him to choose her and only reluctantly drop her ultimatum (which she really doesn't want to go through with) once it becomes obvious he's not entertaining the idea. Still puts Raeth in the bind he finds himself in at the end but makes her at least somewhat important as a character in her own right beforehand, and if she's developed a bit more it makes the idea for Leane's Verdant/Ferrous coup have a bit more weight.

- This is less 'how would I fix it' and more 'how would I integrate it' but might as well have a go: Aether needs to be worked fully into the cosmere vis a vis the Shards/Adonalsium and the Fell Twins need to remain a credible danger to the future of the planet. I kind of like the idea that Aether has a connection to the 'Vax' that Elantris 10A mentions (and Ati just before he passes Beyond in Secret History) which would be a cute nod to the role Aether played in creating Mistborn, but having the planet play host to a currently unknown Shard might work better from a narrative perspective. So I'm going to indecisively split the difference and say that it's actually both things: A currently unknown Shard Invests the planet which is how the Aethers come about in the first place, but eventually it gets tired of godhood and wants to renounce the power. We know the Vessels can have children so I'd keep the idea of the twins as the children of a greater entity, with each splitting the power equally and then fighting one another over the planet for some time. Rather than creating the Aethers each wound up associated with one half of the ones that emerged from the original Investing of the planet, but they can still be responsible for the Shentis and other things in the backstory without doing damage to the existing narrative. The original Vessel could still play a role as a Cognitive Shadow, providing Raeth and the others with the necessary backstory exposition but without being an active participant in matters. The twins eventually get imprisoned by Preservation and Ruin who were roaming the cosmere prior to creating Scadrial, thus explaining how Agaris and Makkal aren't free to directly interact with the world but without leaving the Decay plot completely unresolved as it is in the current story.

And that's all I can think of right now.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Weltall

[Landis963]

Well, for starters, I don't think we need a "to be continued" stinger such as Makkal and Agaris reforming.  Next up, Alean's disposal is quite problematic, and Leane needs some comeuppance (Also, those names need to be changed to be less confusable for each other).  I'd move toward splitting the book in two:  One section for the politics, the identity hijinks, and Raeth coming to power.  The second section for the metaplot, and perhaps a few targeted mirrors toward the first book, seeing Raeth find himself on the opposite side of choices made about him previously (e.g. I really, really, really want to see how he handles choosing his sons' Places).  Obviously there would need to be some plot rejiggering for the first half to work correctly - maybe one of Leane's early bids for power goes off instead of the Pool bubbling up?  

[Seonid]

On 7/26/2017 at 6:42 PM, Landis963 said:

(Also, those names need to be changed to be less confusable for each other).

Just noting that the confusion could be just as easily resolved by giving Alean a nickname that she goes by most of the time she's mentioned. However, unlike other Sanderson worlds, the cultures in this one are not nearly as well fleshed out, and so things like naming practices can be easily altered.

[Calderis]

Just finished it and I pretty much agree with you @Pagerunner. I enjoyed the book right up to the false victory. Pretty much everything after fell flat. 

[Ironeyes]

I think Aether probably could have been fixed fifteen years ago, but Brandon has spent that whole time cannibalizing it. I spent the whole time reading it going, "Hey, that's from [fill in the name of Cosmere novel]"

[Weltall]

Well yes, but the point is that he hasn't done that because he's had other things he wanted to write, so the question is more 'with what we know now, how would you do it?'

Though in terms of 'Hey, I recognize that from X' I figure this is a good time to repeat my prediction from an earlier topic that Duskr from the Liar of Partinel draft was conceived as a cooler-sounding name for Night. And that after not getting to canonize the word Amberite from there or from Mythwalker, that the word will finally see the printed page whenever Brandon does the Aether rewrite. He could advertise it as 'a word twenty years in the making' or somesuch. I don't know why I find that word so interesting but I do.

On 7/27/2017 at 6:00 PM, Seonid said:

Just noting that the confusion could be just as easily resolved by giving Alean a nickname that she goes by most of the time she's mentioned. However, unlike other Sanderson worlds, the cultures in this one are not nearly as well fleshed out, and so things like naming practices can be easily altered.

Brandon has also tweaked names in rewrites (see White Sand) so I won't be terribly surprised if a few changes are made. Things like Ynaa (poems) or the Irae as the local term for their temples seem likely examples, especially the latter as it's close to the Ire and the Iriali. And I dunno if it was intentional or not but the name immediately makes me think of Dies Irae which is... just a bit on the nose, given the reveal at the end that they're behind the Forgotten.

Anyhow, changing one of those two so their names aren't quite so similar wouldn't be unexpected, though givine Alean a nickname of some kind would work just as well.

[Leiasqz]

While I really liked the book, I thought quite a lot of the dialogue was "too easy". 

For example, when Raeth gets Taenen on "his side" it seems the words he used was now powerful enough somehow to bring about the change in the man. Also, Raeth and D'naa share way too much information with each other too quickly for it to feel right.

So, if I was to rewrite it, I would work a lot on the dialogue, and probably throw in a lot more scenes between two people before they were suddenly best friends. I think, however, that Brandon has gotten way better at this later in his career.

[Ness]

On 7/26/2017 at 8:42 PM, Landis963 said:

 Alean's disposal is quite problematic, and Leane needs some comeuppance

Couldn't agree more. Alean's disposal is just shy of organized rape, if it doesn't completely fall into that category. Given her character and history, I see no reason this couldn't just be reworked into them discovering a previous, consensual affair.

 

And yeah, Leane seems to have been forgotten at the end.

[Elenion]

Here's a few things that need to be tweaked that I don't think have been brought up yet:

1. We need to see Darro get wasted a few times. You hear a lot about how he goes carousing a lot and ends up with different women, but until you hear about the Alean 'incident' and find Darro dead drunk out of despair I don't think the reader understands how senseless he is when he's out drinking. Darro needs to stumble into the castle completely wasted a couple of times so that you know that when he's out drinking, he doesn't have much control over himself. It also gives Raeth a chance to bond with him more.

2. Disposing of Alean: what happened to her was definitely not ethical, but after all of the sleeping with people that she did I can't say that I didn't find it satisfying. I don't think uncovering an affair of hers would end it well, though, because that makes the plot feel forced: the people didn't uncover the affair until exactly when that info is needed. What needs to happen here is that Darro gets her drunk, has his friends haul her into an unoccupied bed in one of Darro's friends' houses, and then calls the royal guard. The royal guards discover Alean dead drunk in someone's house, make a few assumptions, and get her sent away in shame because a bride fit for the emperor should not be sleeping with other men. Alean, of course, denies the claims, but nobody believes them nor Alean's allegations about Raeth's identity.

3. Tae, the Ferrous bride, needs some more page time. She's a viable candidate for marriage because she's from an influential house; and Raeth is likely to find her a better candidate than the Verdant or Mahallen brides because the latter two are trying to catch him with their feminine wiles. Tae is the most conservatively-dressed of all the brides so she's not trying to seduce Raeth, would win Raeth support from Ferrous--usually a Verdant ally IIRC, and would help Raeth avoid any political missteps because of her practicality. As the book stands, Raeth can't see any other options than D'Naa because he has zero chemistry with any of the other brides, and so it's obvious from the get-go that he's going to have to choose D'Naa. Adding more of Tae would force Raeth to weigh his personal feelings for D'Naa against his political knowledge, which tells him that Tae is the perfect compromise choice.

4. Whatever happened to the Bestarin bride? We should at least hear her mentioned periodically, and when Raeth says he's narrowed his choices to Verdant, Mahallen, or Ferrous it should hurt him hard politically with the Bestarin, making the choice even worse than

5. Mixed signals about the Vo-Dari. He points out quite a bit that he would never have made a good Dari, but then the Patriarch tells "Hern" that Raeth could have become Vo-Dari. Either the Patriarch was playing a political game and trying to suck up to "Hern", or the Vo-Dari aren't as exclusive of an order as the rest of the book and particularly Raeth's time in the Irae makes them out to be.

[Naurock]

I really enjoyed this story as well @Pagerunner! My only qualms were that:

1) The defeat of Decay was a little anti-climactic and kinda confusing. Somehow it became a battle between Agaris and Makkal, which again was wrapped up a little too easily considering the whole book kinda built to that moment.

2) It was never explained why Vaetayn gave Hern a better quality Amberite bud than Raeth. I can understand that Raeth didn't have a quality connection to Amberite but it's pretty clear his bud was not as good of quality as Hern's.

But honestly it was really neat to see the similarities in storyline and magic from Elantris, Warbreaker and Stormlight. I couldn't stop reading this though, every break I had from work and the past few nights have been spent reading this. Fix those two issues and IMO this is better than most of Brandon's books.

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, Naurock said:

1) The defeat of Decay was a little anti-climactic and kinda confusing. Somehow it became a battle between Agaris and Makkal, which again was wrapped up a little too easily considering the whole book kinda built to that moment.

Outside of the Prologue and a mention by the Former, Decay was not a part of the story. It was all between Slaughter and Despair, who were Agaris and Makkal. As far as the buildup... The return of the fell twins was the result of that buildup. If this had been published, that ending definitely implies a sequel. So we probably would have learned more of Decay and the Former, after we saw Slaughter and Despair's war resume. 

23 minutes ago, Naurock said:

2) It was never explained why Vaetayn gave Hern a better quality Amberite bud than Raeth. I can understand that Raeth didn't have a quality connection to Amberite but it's pretty clear his bud was not as good of quality as Hern's.

Their buds came from the exact same source. We don't know what allows a strong or weak bond, but the information given shows no reason to think Vaetayn intentionally gave Raeth a weak Bud. 

[Naurock]

52 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Outside of the Prologue and a mention by the Former, Decay was not a part of the story. It was all between Slaughter and Despair, who were Agaris and Makkal. As far as the buildup... The return of the fell twins was the result of that buildup. If this had been published, that ending definitely implies a sequel. So we probably would have learned more of Decay and the Former, after we saw Slaughter and Despair's war resume. 

Their buds came from the exact same source. We don't know what allows a strong or weak bond, but the information given shows no reason to think Vaetayn intentionally gave Raeth a weak Bud. 

Then I guess it needs to be explained why Makkal was able to escape his prison. Time? Vo-Dari constantly bonding Illumination? Made a deal with Decay? My original point was still that Raeth "sacrificing" himself and now the threat is over is a weak ending. How is a tiny piece of Night infused with Agaris's conscience that he bonded enough to equal a literal shard pool and destroy them both? I was disappointed in how the conflict ended.

Are we sure their buds came from the same source?

Quote

“How do newborn Aedin get their Aethers?” D’Naa asked.

    “With Buds from a Line Head,” Hern said.

    “And High Aedin children?” D’Naa asked.

    “From their Line Head as well,” Hern said, frowning slightly in confusion.  “And?”

    “Don’t you see?” D’Naa said, leaning forward slightly.  “What if it isn’t about the race, what if it’s about the Buds?  Aedin children have weak Bonds because they receive their Buds from regular Aedin, who are also weak.  High Aedin are strong because they get their Buds from strong Bonds.  If you took a High Aedin Bud to a regular Aedin, I’ll bet they’d be able to create a Bond just as powerful.”

This conversation seems to imply that Hern and Raeth should be equally powerful and the only difference should be their ability to bond with their Aethers. But after Raeth's bud was split the new piece wasn't able to bond a new host or regrow.

Also, does anyone know the age that Aedins are given a bud? Is it shortly after birth? Because I wouldn't wanna see the terrible twos a magical armored child, that can choose any weapon of destruction.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Naurock
Mistaken name

[Calderis]

35 minutes ago, Naurock said:

Then I guess it needs to be explained why Makkal was able to escape his prison. Time? Vo-Dari constantly bonding Illumination? Made a deal with Decay? My original point was still that Raeth "sacrificing" himself and now the threat is over is a weak ending. How is a tiny piece of Night infused with Agaris's conscience that he bonded enough to equal a literal shard pool and destroy them both? I was disappointed in how the conflict ended.

I don't think it was just "a little piece." 

The appearance of the faces shows that the attention of the... Splinters? Was there. Any night bond entering the pool would have created the confrontation as a Shardpool links to the Spiritual Realm. 

The fact that other than Raeth, all night and illuminous bonds were killed shows that it wasn't a little piece but a full confrontation. 

The dreams that some Vo-Dari had show how they were influenced by Makkal, who was able to touch their minds. Just like he was promised by Decay in the opening.

40 minutes ago, Naurock said:

Are we sure their buds came from the same source?

Quote

“How do newborn Aedin get their Aethers?” D’Naa asked.

    “With Buds from a Line Head,” Hern said.

    “And High Aedin children?” D’Naa asked.

    “From their Line Head as well,” Hern said, frowning slightly in confusion.  “And?”

    “Don’t you see?” D’Naa said, leaning forward slightly.  “What if it isn’t about the race, what if it’s about the Buds?  Aedin children have weak Bonds because they receive their Buds from regular Aedin, who are also weak.  High Aedin are strong because they get their Buds from strong Bonds.  If you took a High Aedin Bud to a regular Aedin, I’ll bet they’d be able to create a Bond just as powerful.”

This conversation seems to imply that Hern and Raeth should be equally powerful and the only difference should be their ability to bond with their Aethers. But after Raeth's bud was split the new piece wasn't able to bond a new host or regrow.

If this conversation was correct, and strength is purely a product of the bud itself, then it either was something that would have been brought out in the plot, or was a plot line intended to be addressed in a sequel, because in it's current form, that conversation is it. That's all the evidence we have. It's a compelling argument due to the strength of D'naa's Verdant bond, but that's all. 

I don't think you're wrong. We just don't have anything else to go off of. 

[Naurock]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't think it was just "a little piece." 

The appearance of the faces shows that the attention of the... Splinters? Was there. Any night bond entering the pool would have created the confrontation as a Shardpool links to the Spiritual Realm. 

I guess I didn't really think of it in a way of the 3 realms (which almost everything about shards and magic systems should be kept in the forefront of your mind when his books). Thanks for reminding me of it. Even with this new perspective I'm still left wanting more. Near unstoppable force destroyed by something a foolish Dari that bonded Night could have done accidentally or out of curiosity. I guess I wanted either a quick but kinda epic battle or some battle of wits or wills shown on the Spiritual realm between the brothers. The armies final battle had a near whole chapter, and it ends up being pointless because as Pagerunner points out with his flaws that the army regenerates anyway.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Naurock said:

I guess I wanted either a quick but kinda epic battle or some battle of wits or wills shown on the Spiritual realm between the brothers. The armies final battle had a near whole chapter, and it ends up being pointless because as Pagerunner points out with his flaws that the army regenerates anyway.

Trust me I understand. It felt very anticlimactic. The reveal at the end lessened that some, in that all it really did was neutralize the pools and allow the twins freedom, but that just leads into a story we don't get to see... So... 

[Agent34]

On 8/7/2017 at 4:01 PM, Elenion said:

5. Mixed signals about the Vo-Dari. He points out quite a bit that he would never have made a good Dari, but then the Patriarch tells "Hern" that Raeth could have become Vo-Dari. Either the Patriarch was playing a political game and trying to suck up to "Hern", or the Vo-Dari aren't as exclusive of an order as the rest of the book and particularly Raeth's time in the Irae makes them out to be.

Raeth didn't think he would make a good Dari but that doesn't mean he couldn't be one or become a Vo-Dari. Self perception isn't always a true image. The Patriarch said he had the potential to become great.

[Weltall]

12 hours ago, Naurock said:

Then I guess it needs to be explained why Makkal was able to escape his prison. Time? Vo-Dari constantly bonding Illumination? Made a deal with Decay? My original point was still that Raeth "sacrificing" himself and now the threat is over is a weak ending. How is a tiny piece of Night infused with Agaris's conscience that he bonded enough to equal a literal shard pool and destroy them both? I was disappointed in how the conflict ended.

I think it was nothing more than Raeth being the first potential host that Makkal has ever come across. The thinking goes sort of like this, as I imagine it on Makkal's part: 'Here's a person who's bonded to one of 'my' Aethers who I can touch through the perpendicularity (or whatever we want to think of the pools) and who didn't fall completely through it. And he's not touched by Agaris' influence.' Remember that the Patriarch mentions how all the Dari that are picked to bond Night have been visited by 'Vae'? I think that they could bond Night and create the Forgotten but since they were first touched by Agaris, they couldn't be used as a vessel by Makkal.

Not that I disagree that the ending could be greatly improved, and like I said I think that when it's rewritten we'll get something a lot more satisfying since Brandon will be envisioning it as a standalone project instead of the springboard to a longer series.

Quote

This conversation seems to imply that Hern and Raeth should be equally powerful and the only difference should be their ability to bond with their Aethers. But after Raeth's bud was split the new piece wasn't able to bond a new host or regrow.

We're told that Aethers weaken if they're not used (the Patriarch) so we know that the strength of the bud you recieve isn't fixed as your power level for your entire life. My working assumption is that Raeth for some reason simply wasn't compatable with the Amberite bud or got some quirk of sDNA that made him less suitable to use his world's magic system and so he required a direct infusion of power from Makkal to allow him do do the kind of impressive stunts that other Amberites could easily accomplish. And consequently, the bud that D'Naa took from Raeth was useless rather than ridiculously powerful because it had decayed from its strength when he'd recieved it.

[Agamidae]

On 07/08/2017 at 8:01 AM, Elenion said:

What needs to happen here is that Darro gets her [Alean] drunk, has his friends haul her into an unoccupied bed ... and then calls the royal guard. The royal guards ... make a few assumptions, and get her sent away in shame

This, so much this. And she wouldn't be able to deny it, since she's no longer a virgin.

If you think about it, she's kinda in the right here. Impersonating an Emperor is a worse crime than screwing him before marriage. What Darro did to her was pretty disturbing.

[Agamidae]

This post is going to be pretty long, so here's a TLDR of potential solutions:

1. The forgotten can only be created at the pool of Night, so there's a reason for them to march on the capital.

2. The pool of Light is depleted or inaccessible, so Dari can't create Light-Forgotten from it.

3. Twins are dead and the conflict is between Aethers (this is just if we actually want the story to be published among other Brandon's novels so it doesn't repeat the whole Ruin-imprisoned-in-the-shardpool thing)

I only finished half an hour ago so these are fresh impressions. The story didn't feel to me like two seperate books, perhaps, because I pretty much expect from high fantasy (and Brandon especially) to start with war among men and end with war among gods. And I did like the second army of Forgotten reveal, I half-expected it and it made things that much scarier. The deaths of soldiers weren't for nothing, they bought time. The whole story is just one big ticking bomb, after all.

What breaks the story is that Dari could create the Forgotten anywhere they wanted. "Some of us hoped you can be reasoned with" doesn't explain why they had to march them all the way to the city. They could've just killed some High Aedin in their sleep, shown how helpless they are and announced their demands.

1. So let's say the Forgotten can only be created from the pool. Since Dari are controlling them it actually explains why they have to stop at night, because people need to sleep. And perhaps we just don't know about the second army coming because Vo-Dari are controlling where the scouts are Sent and time the movement when they aren't looking.

But then the question is, why didn't they just create similar warriors from the pool of light? Explaining it with Intent ("because this is the power of creation, you can't kill with it") wouldn't hold up, since you can easily suffocate somebody with Verdant vines or Send them high up in the sky.  And in theory the pool should be as powerful as it's oppposite.

2. Let's assume Dari can't use it then. Either the power was used up in the war or the location was buried under rubble and nobody knows where it was. Following the established rules, they only need a little of Light to bond with. Maybe they are storing it in a Holy Grail of sorts. And since Dari spend a lot of time meditating, they are more succeptible to hearing the Aether talk to them.

These are small changes that keep the story the same but try to fix some of the more glaring problems. Now here's something different, so it doesn't read like a rehash of other ideas (even if it's the other way around)

3. Decay and the imprisonment of gods has to go away. Yes, it's kind of a parallel to Raeth being trapped in his position, but it's not really expanded on besides a few lines of "I want to be free" and we already have Ruin escaping his prison.

Former could be kind of like Harmony, call him Twilight: he splits his power between his sons, so one gets Light, and the other Night, they fight, create weapons and eventually destroy each other. Now, just like Gol and Shateen continued living as discarded weapons (and I personally loved that part of worldbuilding), perhaps Aethers keep on fighting even after their creators perish.

If this is part of Cosmere, we know investiture can create an intelligence of its own when left without a holder. It was implied thorughout the book that Aethers have emotions and are connected to something bigger. I really like the concept of intelligent magic. Perhaps, unlike spren, each Aether is one rudimentary mind which learns from thoughts and feelings of people it's bonded to, which in turn affect its personality. Aether of Night, who only touches a few people a year and instantly kills them, probably isn't very intelligent, which is why Dari can exploit it. Aethers would probably view people as hosts and actually want to spread to non-High Aedin, which ties into the story well. And the idea that magic uses people to fight is kinda cool.

What do you think? I enjoyed the book and think it still has some potential. I'm really glad we have an opportunity to read these unpublished novels. Big thanks to Brandon.

Edit: Also, can Raeth be a bit smarter? As soon as he thought Night is opposite to Sending, I assumed he could teleport himself. I mean, it's kinda obvious. When we learned that the Forgotten stop every night, I expected the army would kite them with archers or spill oil in front of them and try to burn them, try to abuse their behaviour in any way possible.

Throwing animals was quite gruesome and unorthodox, but I kept wondering, could you Send a Vo-Dari to the ocean and order him to Send a blue whale back to the battlefield? Yeah, it's crazy and hard to pull of, but probably within the realm of possibility?

Edited August 13, 2017 by Agamidae
a typo

[Agent34]

3 hours ago, Agamidae said:

Throwing animals was quite gruesome and unorthodox, but I kept wondering, could you Send a Vo-Dari to the ocean and order him to Send a blue whale back to the barttlefield? Yeah, it's crazy and hard to pull of, but probably within the realm of possibility?

The Vo-Dari would have to have been out to sea if I'm not mistaken so they can Send another Vo-Dari there. Not sure if you'd find any willing though since it'd end up being a one way trip for the whale Sender.

[Agamidae]

Unless you Send another Dari bonded to Night so he can teleport them both back.

[SilverTiger]

I agree with that the second part of the book- everything from the Forgotten reforming onward- felt wrong. It didn't fit. Also, the whole Dari thing felt off. People don't turn on their families that easily. I don't think that many people would think destroying about 70% of the Aedin is a good idea either. The idea about the magics using people is a good one though. Especially if it could bring the other peoples into play more. I was looking forward to seeing more the sub-kingdoms' unique cultures. Also, other groups like the Shentis, Harrmen, Seaborn, and the non-human species, seeing how they felt about the conflict. After all, who says the Forgotten are going to leave them alone? It was kind of assumed they were neutral, but why? "The Forgotten are only after the empire" is a somewhat weak argument, when dealing with an apocalypse.

[Master Knapper]

I don't know about the characterization and pacing issues, I trust Brandon more than myself to try to fix them.  My thoughts are around how you can keep the majority of the story intact as cannon, with so much of the larger picture canibalized for other books.

Assumptions:
-  Former is a Shard, short for Formation (borrowed/superseded by Preservation &/or Cultivation)
-  Decay is another Shard (borrowed to become Ruin)

 

I like the idea of splinters of a shard being treated like sons by the shard, and the intent of the splinters being perpendicular, if not in outright conflict, with the intent of the shard (Formation vs Slaughter and Dispair). 

 

In my opinion, Formation is no longer available.  Looking at Rider of Storms’ Theory in the cosmere theories board, I am thinking if Formation is replaced with “Justice”, you could have the same Fell Twins that the shard created and then lost control of.  The splinters are battleing each other, and the people are forced to be the game pieces/ scorecards in the battle between them.  I don’t know if you need another shard trying to manipulate the twins.  If needed for the story, if could be Autonomy (Trell) or one of the unknown shards.  I think Odium would be more direct.  If there is a Chaos shard, it would be a good candidate.

[Landis963]

21 hours ago, Master Knapper said:

I don't know about the characterization and pacing issues, I trust Brandon more than myself to try to fix them.  My thoughts are around how you can keep the majority of the story intact as cannon, with so much of the larger picture canibalized for other books.

Assumptions:
-  Former is a Shard, short for Formation (borrowed/superseded by Preservation &/or Cultivation)
-  Decay is another Shard (borrowed to become Ruin)

 

I like the idea of splinters of a shard being treated like sons by the shard, and the intent of the splinters being perpendicular, if not in outright conflict, with the intent of the shard (Formation vs Slaughter and Dispair). 

 

In my opinion, Formation is no longer available.  Looking at Rider of Storms’ Theory in the cosmere theories board, I am thinking if Formation is replaced with “Justice”, you could have the same Fell Twins that the shard created and then lost control of.  The splinters are battleing each other, and the people are forced to be the game pieces/ scorecards in the battle between them.  I don’t know if you need another shard trying to manipulate the twins.  If needed for the story, if could be Autonomy (Trell) or one of the unknown shards.  I think Odium would be more direct.  If there is a Chaos shard, it would be a good candidate.

The thing is, a lot of the competition between Slaughter and Despair was cannibalized to create the conflict between Preservation and Ruin in Mistborn.  (Notice how angry and saddened Preservation is about Ruin doing anything in Mistborn, and compare to the Former's relative nonchalance in Aether) So you may have less to work with than you think.