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BotS - pt. 2/2 - Paracosmic_Nomenclator - 7/24/17 - 4308 words


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Here's part 2. I'm unhappy with this story's current length. Do you think I should try and expand it to a novella (17500+ words), or condense it to a short story (7500- words)? It's currently sitting around 8700. Leave that and other feedback below. Thanks!

Edit:

Recap of pt. 1:

Our POV character, Trebor, is imprisoned, convicted of beating his own daughter into a coma, and murdering a city guard. He does not deny these charges. The night before his execution, Trebor unwittingly consumes the blossoms of a tree with magical properties. It causes his skin to ignite, while simultaneously healing his burns.

Trebor, along with two other prisoners, are taken to the Mnemos monastery, the location where these magic blossoms are grown. Their guide, the priest Esirta, reveals that these prisoners will be used to test the effects of new breeds of mnemosyne blossoms. At the monastery, Esirta shows Trebor a particular breed of tree, the soulblossom, the effects of which are unknown. Immediately after consuming the soulblossom, any person at all affected by mnemosynes dies. It is also revealed that those who sleep near the soulblossom experience strange dreams, and that blossoms on the tree point towards the nearest person. While Trebor and Esirta are there, a large number of the blossoms suddenly point at a focus in empty air, something which they have never done before. Bothered by this unusual behavior, Trebor and Esirta choose to leave.

Edited by Paracosmic_nomenclator
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As I go: The narrative shift to diary in the middle of a short is a bit jarring. It shifts the reader’s mentality.

Also, E’s faith isn’t consistent. His speech follows the pattern of a devout, but his thoughts and emotions lie elsewhere. If E truly believed that the recruitment process was divine, why would he consider it barbaric? Also, he’s consistently portrayed as doubting the testing process, which is odd of it is part of his religion. If it isn’t (it’s kind of implied that the priests chose to do this) then this fate is no worse than the death penalty. It’s find for a man of the cloth to doubt the death penalty, but that’s not directly what he’s doing.

The confession scene is well done, it makes me think you’ve read a firsthand confession. I’m no expert on this subject, but all the emotions that T describes himself experiencing as an accurate depiction of real life abuse. The priest also does a good job of acting like a psychologist, though my Jungian-fueled psychoanalysis would chalk up his change in behavior to guilt rather than a 180 redemption shift. Like I said earlier, I’m no expert in this subject (and I do not wish to be), so take all that I say in this paragraph with a grain of salt.

The T and Y conversation is done as well as the earlier talk. The only problem I have with it is it makes me feel that T wasn’t as bad a parent as he claims he is earlier in the story (which is entirely possible that he’s lying earlier, out of a guilt complex).

The final conversation is interesting. I assume that T can see E’s dream somehow because … reasons? Well, that aside, we again come to E’s faith crisis. The dialogue here is a good inverse of the earlier confession, but it overlooks the fact that E did it to a few other hundreds. I’m not sure this makes for a more satisfying ending then the Y waking up.

Overall: This is an emotionally complex piece that you did justice to. A lot of dialogue, but none of it was tedious or just exposition. Well done.

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4 hours ago, aeromancer said:

The narrative shift to diary in the middle of a short is a bit jarring.

Agreed. It basically happened because I realized that the story was getting too long, and needed to condense what was going to be several scenes into a few paragraphs.

4 hours ago, aeromancer said:

If E truly believed that the recruitment process was divine, why would he consider it barbaric?

I could have explained this better. E truly believes that the blossoms are divine, and that testing them is vital. At the same time, though, he worries that the prisoners are not truly being offered a chance at redemption, and that he is in essence practicing human sacrifice, which he considers barbaric. His issue is less with the fact that the prisoners die, and more with the idea that he may be failing to offer them redemption.

4 hours ago, aeromancer said:

it makes me think you’ve read a firsthand confession.

Nope, just seen it on TV shows.

5 hours ago, aeromancer said:

T and Y conversation is done as well as the earlier talk.

Yay! Thanks!

5 hours ago, aeromancer said:

I assume that T can see E’s dream somehow because … reasons?

Indeed... Very logical and well explored reasons... /sarcasm

5 hours ago, aeromancer said:

This is an emotionally complex piece that you did justice to. [...] Well Done.

Thank you very much! I immensely appreciate the feedback, and I'm glad you liked it.

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This was another good submission. The writing pulls me along, though I'll agree the journal entry was a bit jarring. Maybe if it was separated from the text...

I didn't have a problem with E being inconsistent in faith. I think it lends a good complexity to the character. To me, he's a scientist as well as a priest, taking advantage of the roles offered in this society. A little problem with the forgiveness at the end of the confession, but that may be my dislike of organized religion talking.

Interested to see where this leads from here on. T has fulfilled his original goal of saving his girl, so I'm wondering what the next step is.


Notes while reading:

pg 1: murder -> murderer

pg 2: "You’re final consumption"
--your

pg 7: “The man I know has changed as I watched him.
“The man I know is redeemed.”
--hmmm...E has known T for six days and thinks he's a changed man because he's done good for a scientific community in isolation? Would T even believe that?

pg 10: "He would have killed me no matter what. When I stayed silent, he felt weak, and tried to prove he wasn’t..."
--how old is Yra? That's a lot of analysis about something for a little child.

The last few pages need some more dialogue tags. I got a little confused with who was speaking.

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7 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Interested to see where this leads from here on.

This was it. It's a short story which I submitted in two parts.

7 hours ago, Mandamon said:

E has known T for six days and thinks he's a changed man because he's done good for a scientific community in isolation? Would T even believe that?

E thinks T has changed because he grows more willing to suffer personal pain for the sake of others. T doesn't believe it until after he saves his daughter.

7 hours ago, Mandamon said:

how old is Yra? That's a lot of analysis about something for a little child.

Don't have a specific age, but around 8. Children that grow up in abusive relationships often develop surprisingky good analysis skills as a survival mechanism.

7 hours ago, Mandamon said:

The last few pages need some more dialogue tags. I got a little confused with who was speaking.

Got it. Will change.

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9 hours ago, Paracosmic_nomenclator said:

This was it. It's a short story which I submitted in two parts.

Oh--yeah, now I see that, looking up top. Well then...good job on fulfilling promises!

I think there's plenty of material here for a novella. I'd love to see just a little more of what E and T find out about the blossoms.

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The jump to diary style does seem pretty extreme for a shorter work, I agree with @aeromancer and @Mandamon there.  I would also liked to have seen some of the interactions summarized there actually play out, since they would go a long way towards making T more sympathetic. 

I'm also a little confused by the POV in the early sections, as it seems to wobble a bit. Lines like ", both of them feeling guilty " seem to me to have an outside narrator, which conflicts with the limited third perspective that's elsewhere. 

The majority of this section is also very heavy on the dialogue, and like @Mandamon I was confused in places. Moreover I feel like something of the setting and feel of the first part of the story has been lost when there is nothing but dialogue and no other sights, sounds, smells, feelings or actions.  Within this dialogue there seems to be fair bit of Character X commenting on Character Y's feelings, instead of Character Y actually demonstrating or conveying those feelings themselves.

It is a good story, and done well, but I think it could be even better if the front and back parts of these stories harmonized with each other a bit more. 

 

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- The notes are interesting, but I can't help but feel it's a little more "tell" than "show", especially where Trebor is concerned.

- Why does Trebor call Estira "Father" later? It feels a bit too formal. I like when he calls him without the honorific the first time because it denotes the bond between the two men, and without, it feels a bit more cloistered.

- Trebor's explanation for beating his kids falls short. I'm not sure how you could justify it, but I think it needs to be something a bit more heatfelt.

- I really, really like everything afterward. This is a good story - the setting and the concept really engaged me. It might need a bit more tweaking, but its a good start.

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Welcome back!

Overall

As with before, the writing is solid and enjoyable. The text reads smoothly. I think my overall comment is mostly about absolution, which is the theme of this piece, and how it comes too easily to everyone. Forgiveness is one thing, absolution is another, and even forgiveness seems to not really be earned. I think a little more work might need to be done in that area to help it resonate more. In contrast to everyone else, I didn't mind the journal style. Overall though, well done!

Your questions

I would suggest expanding it. You need a bit more to the story so the forgiveness aspect is actually earned

On 7/24/2017 at 5:11 PM, aeromancer said:

The confession scene is well done

I agree. Though the language was a little stilted, the actual confession was good.

On 7/26/2017 at 8:09 AM, Mandamon said:

I'd love to see just a little more of what E and T find out about the blossoms.

Yes this! I'd love a bit more on the blossoms, too!

23 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

Trebor's explanation for beating his kids falls short. I'm not sure how you could justify it, but I think it needs to be something a bit more heatfelt.

I agree here as well.

 

As I go

- 97% of his weight? How is that possible??? Did his bones melt away? I need details, otherwise it just seems highly implausible

- first page has a number of minor typos. Might be worth reading the text aloud to catch these things

- the conversation between the priest and Trevor comes off just a little stilted. Not horribly stilted, but just a bit

- page four: there's head hopping going on here. Unsure whose POV we are in

- page five: I am cautiously wary of the abuser apologist tone coming from this area, but it's not too strong yet. I'll keep on

- page seven: noting the horribleness of Trebor's crimes, I don't see how consuming a few blossoms really absolves him. The absolution comes too easy, I think.

- I don't believe Yra's forgiveness at all. What happened to her was 100% her father's fault, and since we haven't been shown that she has severe Stockholm Syndrome or something, again, this comes off as too easy absolution

- page 12: the explanation of Trebor moving the tree ends with 'he did it', which is a bit anticlimactic. I think a little bit more would be nice here

- top of page 14 is a little confusing. I'm not sure who Trebor has met in his dreamscape

- the absolution of E comes off a little too easy too, I think

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Well, I'm certainly keen to find out what happens, and reassured in opening the file that even if I have issues with something, I'm in for a solid and well-written piece.

Comments, as I read. I hope you get as far as the summartion at the end!

  • Tre, in particular, has been incredible” – this is an unscientific word for Er to use, who seems very particular about his process.
  • lost ninety-seven percent of his weight” – I don’t understand. I may be missing something due to WRS, does this mean the weight of his soul, or something like that? Not his physical weight, surely?! Does he regain it? Confused.
  • I was not present for these measurements” – This is interesting. It’s rather contemptable that a scientist is not willing to witness the effects of the experiments he is leading, but that’s good here, because it shows us a flaw in Er. It’s hard not to sympathise with his lofty goals and earnest endeavour, having this moral balance with the treatment of the prisoners, and then this added dimension of a personal flaw (arguably) in Er is well done, I think.
  • surprised to see a murderer” – I'm others pointed it out, but still.
  • scheduled to consume the soul blossom” – I think you have set up this moment very effectively. You explained last time that this was a death sentence, based on previous results, and you’ve shown a death (Na); also, you’ve shown Tre being exceptional. So, I’ve got some real expectations about this trial.
  • You truly believe that” – repetition of ‘truly’ in close proximity, sounded off to me.
  • You’re Your final consumption
  • how valuable your services here have been” – I’ve explained my anticipation of the coming scene, but I am perplexed. If Tre’s services have been so valuable, why put him through the rest that is likely to kill him, why not continue to use him for non-fatal tests? I’d like to see more of the rationale as to why they are not preserving him.
  • You’re a strange one, Esirta” – comma.
  • She was in a deep sleep when I left the city” – See, I think my problem last time came from a lack of clarity over whether the daughter was alive or not. Some said to Tre ‘you’re a child killer’ (paraphrasing) and it wasn’t refuted. So, I assumed he’d killed his daughter. This since has been refuted, but I wish he’d refuted it in his mind at the time, clarified that he had killed the guard, but not his daughter. That would have made all the difference to me.
  • you have two daughters, as well as three sons” – This just reinforces my chagrin at the sparsity of Tre’s internal monologue in the first part of the story. This kind of new information, this late in the story, niggles with me. I’m not saying spell out the names and ages of his family, but I think it’s reasonable to expect him to think, when in prison, about the fact that he has other family, or to refute, internally, that he attacked his own daughter.
  • “Yra.” He whispered.’ > “Yra,” he whispered. – Really, editors will hate that :)
  • both of them feeling guilty towards the other” – I kept picking away at this phrase, because it doesn’t sound right to me. In addition, I think it’s an opportunity for a more evocative moment. ‘each suddenly and acutely aware of the debt he owed the other.’ – just something, more. It seems like a key moment between the two main characters.
  • Trebor paused to breathe
  • I can feel the power in this moment, but I think Tre’s confession needs some work. “if I could hurt them then that also proved I could protect them” - I don’t expect to be able to understand why he beat his children, but I’m still struggling with the pacing of the revelation through the story. Also, paragraphing the dialogue in that way is confusing. I don’t see the problem with keeping one strand of dialogue as a block.
  • they would say that they understood, that they still loved me – I don’t believe this, it’s too convenient for the purposes of the story. He beat five kids and they all forgave him?! It lumps them all together and doesn’t allow for them being individuals.
  • because I killed her” – and there’s my favourite bugbear again. This is factually incorrect. I know he can be allowed to speak metaphorically, and by this point in the story, we know that she’s still alive, but him doing this in the first part of the story, and the guard reinforcing it, gave me completely the wrong impression.
  • Children grow out of the damnation things so fast” – Lol, true dat. I feel his pain here.
  • ran into the guard on by accident
  • And I just stood there and watched. I was scared” – this is a problem for me, I don’t know how to identify or accept this. Given the courage of sorts that Tre has displayed at certain point of the story, I don’t believe this reaction.
  • My daughter died” – BUT SHE ISN’T DEAD – this constant and deliberate contradiction is very frustrating.
  • Its flowers were open, focusing at an empty point” – this really is an excellent detail and piece of word-building.
  • What happened to me wasn’t your fault, Dad” – meh.
  • Don’t be. As you proved, the only thing you could accomplish by getting involved was to get yourself killed too” – I don’t recall seeing this being proved.
  • At least one of us would have survived that way” – how old is the child supposed to be? I’ve been picturing 6-8, but she sounds much older, and these are older concepts and expressions, I feel.
  • The lack of dialogue tags in the quick exchanges leads me to lose track of who’s talking.
  • Why am I stuck here?
  • Then you’ll disappear” – This is a very effective way of ramping up the tension at this point in the story. Nicely done. Time-bombs are such fun – as a writing device!
  • looked at her softly” – I'm not sure what that looks like.
  • the way she talked, he sometimes forgot how young she was” – Hmm, yeah, okay. Per my comment above.
  • But you’ve taught me a lesson” – I think there’s a big issue here. I was really put off by the bit about all his children loving him even though he beat them. I mean, seriously? I think that holds back the story significantly. If it was not as well written as it is, I would have stopped reading at that point, because I think there is a very distasteful idea there. I don’t see how would it hurt the story if his children despised/hated and feared him for beating them.
  • ad, he watched as his daughter suffering” – typo.
  • She was alive” – But she was always alive.

This is a very effective story, well written, with a good, strong economical style. I’m glad a read it. I think there are key aspects that let it down which, if edited, would transform it into an even better story.

(a)    there is a pretty much constant see-saw back and forth between Y being dead and Y being alive – I think it’s misleading and I don’t think it serves any purpose. I am by no means remarkable, so, if I’m having that reaction, one-in-eight (or however many people on RE read it and don’t feel the same) of year audience will have the same reaction, I think.

(b)   Tre’s emotions, I think, are not strong enough.  I don’t feel his regret strongly enough, imho. I think the pay-off would be much more powerful if we learn about what happened with his daughter much sooner. Also, I don’t appreciate being led to sympathise with a child-beater for it to be revealed that late in the story. There’s enough tragedy in that aspect that I think you could reveal it much earlier and still have people read on.

(c)    Because of how Tre is set up, and I think there is a lack of clarity around him feeling weak and powerless (I didn’t get that impression early on) I didn’t believe his lack of reaction, his fear when the guard was beating his daughter. I have a daughter (23 now). Tre is a violent man already, and we are told he loves his children – I don’t feel these things add up to him standing back. I would need to feel his fear of the soldiers much more strongly at the beginning, I think.

(d)   The children still loving him after the beatings, and reassuring him, feels part to me, author intervention for story purposes. Also, I don’t see it adds.

(e)    Dialogue tags and paragraphing. These things add up to make the long dialogue sections hard to follow. There’s no need for all the paragraphing of single blocks of speech.

Great story, thanks for sharing.

<R>

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On 25/07/2017 at 3:18 AM, Paracosmic_nomenclator said:
On 24/07/2017 at 10:11 PM, aeromancer said:

The narrative shift to diary in the middle of a short is a bit jarring.

Agreed. It basically happened because I realized that the story was getting too long, and needed to condense what was going to be several scenes into a few paragraphs.

I though it was fine. it's a bit jarring at the start of the submission, but given the length of the story, having a different narrative worm in there helps to break up the flow, in a sort of mini scene-sequel sense. I think that's good, especially if you decide to go to novella length. On that point, personally, I would go to novella. WE's advise on this (or MRK's anyway) likely would be to consider the MICE quotient and how many characters, settings, ideas you have. I think there are enough in this story to support a longer (clearer in place, see my comments) narrative.

On 24/07/2017 at 10:11 PM, aeromancer said:

The only problem I have with it is it makes me feel that T wasn’t as bad a parent as he claims he is

Yeah, I think this matches up with my reaction of disbelief to the children being so ready to accept beatings and respond with understanding and love. I think it erodes the readers ability to be convinced of The as a character.

On 25/07/2017 at 7:57 PM, Mandamon said:

I didn't have a problem with E being inconsistent in faith.

#iagreewithmandamon

On 25/07/2017 at 7:57 PM, Mandamon said:

how old is Yra? That's a lot of analysis about something for a little child.

#iagreewithmandamonagain

On 27/07/2017 at 7:40 PM, industrialistDragon said:

I'm also a little confused by the POV in the early sections

I had a wobble myself, once or twice, in terms of POV, but you really have to have those switches, I think, to do justice to the shift to the soul 'plane'. I found myself able to accept it, although it sometimes was noticeable.

On 28/07/2017 at 0:43 AM, rdpulfer said:

Why does The call Es "Father" later? It feels a bit too formal. I like when he calls him without the honorific

I forgot to recap on this. I was pretty much only ever confused by the change in titles through the piece. The dropping the honorific works, and Es not liking it also works. But I think one or two of the early reference to different titles are confusing. I think if you simplify it to Es being 'your grace' (i.e. different from the other priests) but not liking it, it would play out better.

11 hours ago, kais said:

how it comes too easily to everyone. Forgiveness is one thing, absolution is another

Yeah. We've got a child-beater here. I don't think I want him to be forgiven. I think a fitting punchline would be for him to go to the fiery place anyway. He can still forgive Es - perhaps that would be more poignant an ending. Tre does the right think for his daughter, but still had to pay the price for his sins. Otherwise, everyone has a happy ending. I think this story is complex enough that it deserves a more challenging ending than 'they all lived (or died) happily ever after'.

Edited by Robinski
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On 7/28/2017 at 3:48 PM, kais said:

97% of his weight? How is that possible??? Did his bones melt away? I need details, otherwise it just seems highly implausible

Yup. Just like there's one that turns you invisible by making light not interact with you, this one makes gravity not interact with you, making you weightless. 'Cause, you know, magic!

On 7/28/2017 at 3:48 PM, kais said:

first page has a number of minor typos. Might be worth reading the text aloud to catch these things

- the conversation between the priest and Trevor comes off just a little stilted. Not horribly stilted, but just a bit

Thanks. Will fix.

 

On 7/29/2017 at 2:44 AM, Robinski said:

why not continue to use him for non-fatal tests? I’d like to see more of the rationale as to why they are not preserving him.

They had him test all the other blossoms before this one. The only way he could test more is if he waited years for more blossoms to be bred.

On 7/29/2017 at 2:44 AM, Robinski said:

there is a pretty much constant see-saw back and forth between Y being dead and Y being alive – I think it’s misleading and I don’t think it serves any purpose. I am by no means remarkable, so, if I’m having that reaction, one-in-eight (or however many people on RE read it and don’t feel the same) of year audience will have the same reaction, I think.

The rationale is that in this society, most people in comas don't ever wake, so they're as good as dead. I could have made that more clear though; in the second draft, I'll add a line between T and E to this effect. 

On 7/28/2017 at 3:48 PM, kais said:

I am cautiously wary of the abuser apologist tone coming from this area,

On 7/29/2017 at 2:44 AM, Robinski said:

they would say that they understood, that they still loved me – I don’t believe this, it’s too convenient for the purposes of the story. He beat five kids and they all forgave him?!

Yeah, I can't claim to filly understand it myself. That said, I heavily based the T/Y relationship on one of my friends and their parents. Despite being physically abused routinely, they definitely still loved their parents, and viewed the abuse as just sort of 'something that happened,' like it wasn't even their parent who was doing it. Apparently, some of their siblings went a step farther, and viewed the beatings as their own fault; they often thought that they deserved it. I did some research, and found that neither of those two attitudes are uncommon in children who have been physically abused, especially from a young age.

That said, for the rest of us who haven't been abused, these sorts of attitudes feel shocking and implausible. For that reason, I'm probably going to have Y be less forgiving in draft two.

While I was talking to my friend about their parents, the concept that struck mex and inspired me to write this story was that a child abuser could still love their children; that they could be a good person despite repeatedly doing something so inexcusable.

I'm having a hard time presenting that message without appearing to dismiss the horror of child abuse, but I want to find a way to. The idea really struck a chord with me, and I wanted to share it with others.

Thank you all for your feedback. It's been immensely beneficial, and I look forward to expanding this into a novella with your critiques in mind. This community has been more helpful and supportive than I'd ever hoped. Thanks again,

~PN

Edited by Paracosmic_nomenclator
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