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Blainejstephenson-7/24-Chapter 1-Vortex of Shadows (v,g)


Blainejstephenson

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So this is my topic for feedback! A note about that...

I want to know what you honestly think, but I would appreciate more than just an "I didn't like your character." That's remarkably unhelpful, and as I'm desperately seeking to become more confident with my art, it doesn't help. Please be honest with your responses, but keep in mind that this is a work in progress, not a finished draft. 

Sorry if I'm seeming strict or harsh, I've simply had too many groups attack me instead of the work.

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Thoughts:

Pg.1: The ‘junk-desk’ chair makes an odd contrast to what’s clearly some form of a military program, along with rooms which are essentially bunkers. This gives me the feel that it’s a program working on little funding, like a last-resort program, or such like that.

Pg. 2-3: Protagonist swaps to being ‘terrified’ after not being terrified in the opening sentence. The President line is a good way to introduce gravity of the situation early in a book, but it could a better reason for being pulled out, perhaps by having protagonist being obstinate to an nth degree.

Pg. 4-5: Backstory is introduced alongside protagonist’s motives. As an aside, from the text, WWIII has been ongoing for 11 years. That’s an awfully long time to have a war assuming there are nukes involved. Even with ludicrous technology advancements, military will almost always give credence to offense over defense, so I hope there’s a thorough explanation eventually as to how Earth isn’t a radioactive fallout zone.

Pg. 6-8: The writing is a bit awkward here, especially when the guard is brought up. We also get an explanation of why swords are still in use, and a lot of exposition. 

Pg. 9-16: Fight scene. I find it somewhat surprising that the protagonists haven’t undergone any form of hostage rescue training, which (from my understanding) is done is special forces everywhere. Also, I’m thinking aliens when the guard transforms. I mean, it’s nothing a human would ever do to another human, and looks like in requires alien super genetic altering know-howTM. Also, point of order. Katanas are short. They’re around three feet of blade, usually smaller. I’d recommend an iaido blade, if you want to stick to Japanese weapons, and a bastard sword overall, because they‘re far better than either iaidos or katanas. For the future of this character, really short sword will be either a gladius, dirk, or wakizashi.

Pg 17-18: As much of a cliché as ‘business-suit-stranger’ is, I’m intrigue. I’m going to assume this is good alien race.

Overall, there are a few flaws, but nothing a little polish couldn't fix. I think the door-locking part of the fight scene was well done, it shows us the main character isn't just stubborn and dislikes obeying rules he deems foolish, but he does genuinely want to help people, adding a bit of complexity, which can easily be expounded further on. The setting was also intriguing, as it gives way to many possibilities, of which I'm assuming aliens. It's a good start to a novel.

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26 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Thoughts:

Pg.1: The ‘junk-desk’ chair makes an odd contrast to what’s clearly some form of a military program, along with rooms which are essentially bunkers. This gives me the feel that it’s a program working on little funding, like a last-resort program, or such like that.

Pg. 2-3: Protagonist swaps to being ‘terrified’ after not being terrified in the opening sentence. The President line is a good way to introduce gravity of the situation early in a book, but it could a better reason for being pulled out, perhaps by having protagonist being obstinate to an nth degree.

Pg. 4-5: Backstory is introduced alongside protagonist’s motives. As an aside, from the text, WWIII has been ongoing for 11 years. That’s an awfully long time to have a war assuming there are nukes involved. Even with ludicrous technology advancements, military will almost always give credence to offense over defense, so I hope there’s a thorough explanation eventually as to how Earth isn’t a radioactive fallout zone.

Pg. 6-8: The writing is a bit awkward here, especially when the guard is brought up. We also get an explanation of why swords are still in use, and a lot of exposition. 

Pg. 9-16: Fight scene. I find it somewhat surprising that the protagonists haven’t undergone any form of hostage rescue training, which (from my understanding) is done is special forces everywhere. Also, I’m thinking aliens when the guard transforms. I mean, it’s nothing a human would ever do to another human, and looks like in requires alien super genetic altering know-howTM. Also, point of order. Katanas are short. They’re around three feet of blade, usually smaller. I’d recommend an iaido blade, if you want to stick to Japanese weapons, and a bastard sword overall, because they‘re far better than either iaidos or katanas. For the future of this character, really short sword will be either a gladius, dirk, or wakizashi.

Pg 17-18: As much of a cliché as ‘business-suit-stranger’ is, I’m intrigue. I’m going to assume this is good alien race.

Overall, there are a few flaws, but nothing a little polish couldn't fix. I think the door-locking part of the fight scene was well done, it shows us the main character isn't just stubborn and dislikes obeying rules he deems foolish, but he does genuinely want to help people, adding a bit of complexity, which can easily be expounded further on. The setting was also intriguing, as it gives way to many possibilities, of which I'm assuming aliens. It's a good start to a novel.

Thanks for your suggestions! Yeah, page 1, there isn't much funding for simple things, it's a high cost program. Glad that got through.

i guess I need to make it clearer that ditching is a very common thing that happens, I'll have to look at that.

there is a credible reason why earth isn't destroyed already, nukes were banned by both sides at the beginning after a few were used. That's gonna come up soon.

the awkward writing is something I'm trying to fix, it's being stubborn for me. (Honestly I also didn't expect to get in this week, thought I'd have another to edit it)

hostage rescue training, I need to do more research on that before I apply it to him, but the girl had a gun pointed at her head, there wasn't much he could have done, at least from what I've seen. Also this might be an odd time to point out that this is a fantasy novel... that needs to be a little more apparent.

thanks for your pointers!

Edited by Blainejstephenson
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Quick heads up - the sub guidelines request attaching a document. This is especially helpful for those of us without continuous internet, who may read on planes and such. If you could submit by attaching the document in the future, I would appreciate it!

Overall

I had to DNF this one. You hit a lot of tropes early on, and I didn't get a sound sense of setting, which is pretty normal in a draft so I could deal with that. Your use of females, however, was very concerning to me, and I had to stop reading. I think some time looking at tropes, as well as how you use women in your narratives, would be useful for your next draft. Keep at it! We all need to revise, so no shame in that.

As I go

- I think your opening line could be stronger, especially for your cold open. Not being terrified isn't much of a hook

Man, I was terrified - This should probably be shown better. He seemed sarcastic, not terrified, especially since the opening line said he wasn't scared.

He’d been the strongest supporter for the genetic modification supersoldier program when they’d first started it. This should come much earlier. Like, second sentence or at the very least, second paragraph. Taking too long to ground the world can mean you fail to hook readers (and agents!).

- another contradiction - our protag says he was dragged into this, but only a few paragraphs up he said he joined willingly (if not ignorantly) at seven?

- I think I'm on page five-ish (no page numbers, and in Google docs), but I'm not connecting with Ben or his father at all. Ben seems mostly whiney and I don't have enough background yet to know why I should care about him. His father doesn't seem to emote at all. 

- Where are we, exactly, when Bianca comes up? I don't really have a feel for setting yet. Bianca comes out of nowhere

- Wait, what? There's blood in Ben's room and someone is talking about revenge. I am so confused. Too many characters introduced in one chapter, and I don't have any motivations so the actions don't make sense

- Bianca...took her shirt off to fight? No no no. That's not practical. It'd be just as distracting if Ben did it. Heck, it'd be more distracting, potentially, if Ben took of his pants, but he's not doing that. I am not on board with this. I wonder now if Bianca will pass the Sexy Lampshade Test

- Little girl tied up in corner? No. I'm afraid I'm going to have to bow out of this one. We're hitting too many tropes on the head too frequently, and your use of females is concerning. I'm very concerned about where the narrative is going, noting our adult female is shirtless and our young female is a victim. 

 

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1 hour ago, kais said:

Quick heads up - the sub guidelines request attaching a document. This is especially helpful for those of us without continuous internet, who may read on planes and such. If you could submit by attaching the document in the future, I would appreciate it!

Overall

I had to DNF this one. You hit a lot of tropes early on, and I didn't get a sound sense of setting, which is pretty normal in a draft so I could deal with that. Your use of females, however, was very concerning to me, and I had to stop reading. I think some time looking at tropes, as well as how you use women in your narratives, would be useful for your next draft. Keep at it! We all need to revise, so no shame in that.

As I go

- I think your opening line could be stronger, especially for your cold open. Not being terrified isn't much of a hook

Man, I was terrified - This should probably be shown better. He seemed sarcastic, not terrified, especially since the opening line said he wasn't scared.

He’d been the strongest supporter for the genetic modification supersoldier program when they’d first started it. This should come much earlier. Like, second sentence or at the very least, second paragraph. Taking too long to ground the world can mean you fail to hook readers (and agents!).

- another contradiction - our protag says he was dragged into this, but only a few paragraphs up he said he joined willingly (if not ignorantly) at seven?

- I think I'm on page five-ish (no page numbers, and in Google docs), but I'm not connecting with Ben or his father at all. Ben seems mostly whiney and I don't have enough background yet to know why I should care about him. His father doesn't seem to emote at all. 

- Where are we, exactly, when Bianca comes up? I don't really have a feel for setting yet. Bianca comes out of nowhere

- Wait, what? There's blood in Ben's room and someone is talking about revenge. I am so confused. Too many characters introduced in one chapter, and I don't have any motivations so the actions don't make sense

- Bianca...took her shirt off to fight? No no no. That's not practical. It'd be just as distracting if Ben did it. Heck, it'd be more distracting, potentially, if Ben took of his pants, but he's not doing that. I am not on board with this. I wonder now if Bianca will pass the Sexy Lampshade Test

- Little girl tied up in corner? No. I'm afraid I'm going to have to bow out of this one. We're hitting too many tropes on the head too frequently, and your use of females is concerning. I'm very concerned about where the narrative is going, noting our adult female is shirtless and our young female is a victim. 

 

Thanks, I think that needed to be said. Forgive me for saying that this was a hard one for me to take. Not that I don't see what you're saying, those were, in fact, the parts I wasn't sure of.

You'd say not enough setting detail or emotions? (Well, not emotions but reasons to care and relatability and such?)

I guess the argument didn't make sense then, Ben's point there was that his dad deluded him into joining. He was lied to. I'd thought I'd made that clear with him saying "You didn't tell me what it would feel like," But I guess I need to be a little clearer. Balancing subtelty and blatantly saying stuff is something I'm working on. Your vote is too subtle.

I'd love to hear what tropes you noticed besides what you mentioned.

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I'll second the request to email the document, especially as I'll be on a plane later this week!

Whoof--the first few pages of this were hard to read, given our country's current situation. However, the writing is solid and draws me on. There might be a little too much tell instead of show, however. 

pg 9: the blocking and timing between seeing the guard and getting into the fight is a little confusing. I'm not sure where the rooms are and how the hallway is situated. Also, I thought the guard was fine, and then a couple seconds later his skull is visible?

pg 10: Taking off the shirt: hmmm...no. You just say how her jacket is armored, and then she removes it first thing in a fight?

Pg 11: The neck is a very sensitive area. You can't build muscle there. If someone got a clean punch on a vulnerable neck surface, the other person is going to notice. If something magic is going on, Ben should remark his punches aren't working right.

I'll second @kais on using a little girl as bait. Plus, what is she doing in a super soldier facility? Is she one of trainees?

pg 16: "His speed nearly doubled suddenly. I managed to block two blows, but there was a rip and my leg nearly gave out."
--"Nearly" repeated

pg 16: Ben probably can't stand, and certainly can't lunge, with a hamstring cut.

The fight at the end drags out. It covers almost half the chapter, and I was starting to get tired of reading it. There's a bit too much of "now I'll show my real power" and "he can't move that fast."

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17 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

I'll second the request to email the document, especially as I'll be on a plane later this week!

Whoof--the first few pages of this were hard to read, given our country's current situation. However, the writing is solid and draws me on. There might be a little too much tell instead of show, however. 

pg 9: the blocking and timing between seeing the guard and getting into the fight is a little confusing. I'm not sure where the rooms are and how the hallway is situated. Also, I thought the guard was fine, and then a couple seconds later his skull is visible?

pg 10: Taking off the shirt: hmmm...no. You just say how her jacket is armored, and then she removes it first thing in a fight?

Pg 11: The neck is a very sensitive area. You can't build muscle there. If someone got a clean punch on a vulnerable neck surface, the other person is going to notice. If something magic is going on, Ben should remark his punches aren't working right.

I'll second @kais on using a little girl as bait. Plus, what is she doing in a super soldier facility? Is she one of trainees?

pg 16: "His speed nearly doubled suddenly. I managed to block two blows, but there was a rip and my leg nearly gave out."
--"Nearly" repeated

pg 16: Ben probably can't stand, and certainly can't lunge, with a hamstring cut.

The fight at the end drags out. It covers almost half the chapter, and I was starting to get tired of reading it. There's a bit too much of "now I'll show my real power" and "he can't move that fast."

Alright, thanks. 

The issues you mentioned, those were next on my editing list. I guess I should have given myself the extra week to edit instead of jumping at the first opportunity to post. Also, I thought I did attach it to the email...? Wait did I attach a link to a drive page instead? Darn that's probably what I did.

Ok, I know what went wrong here. I was trying to use a bit of an unreliable narrator through Ben, he thought the guard was alright, but then later on realized what had happened. Not enough/the right info about the facility and other things, and not enough work on making the fight scene fit/flow.

Thanks

Edited by Blainejstephenson
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Hello and welcome to RE! We can be tough, but I think we do try to stay constructive. :) 
 
On a formatting note, my email program flagged the link to googleDocs as a malicious link and I had to spend a little while convincing it otherwise. If you're writing in gDocs (I do too!), then you want to make sure you use the File->Download As option to save your piece as either a .docx, .rtf, or .pdf for this list. If you go the .docx route, you'll then need to open it in some other writing program (I use openOffice but there are a fair number of better ones out there if you don't want to buy in to Microsoft's monopoly) and re-save it to convert it to the old-style .doc.  gDocs does some formatting weirdness fairly regularly so it's a good idea to open the files it makes and scan them for oddities regardless of format.
 
Moving on to as-i-go comments!
 

Be careful with using italics for emphasis. We all do it, and it's tough nowadays with the way we chat informally on the interwebs, but in more formal prose (such as writing like this), italics for emphasis should be used pretty sparingly. 

If it's so important to keep tabs on these student/subjects, why not use some kind of microchipping or GPS anklet or locator bug in their phones or some other superscience/sci fi gadget instead of relying on what seems like the honor system, some mook  guards, and the work ethic of modern teenagers? 

While the argument between Be and his father does a good job of coming across as natural, it is also feeling to me to be very as-you-know-bob (also called Maid-and-Butler here). I'm also wondering about the father. For a government guy it's weird he's holding his minor son to any kind of binding agreement. As a father, it's a parenting minefield asking his 18-year-old to be beholden to his 7-year-old self. It just sounds really off to me. 
 
I am very confused by the dead guard reveal here. I have no idea at all of where these people are located or how they moved to be in that position. Bi just seems to disappear and reappear at random, and the bad guy's initial dialogue feels so cheesy I think I need some crackers and maybe a bit of wine to go with reading it.
 
Oh dear, and now his shirt is coming off? That seems very illogical and fanservice-y to me. The characters are both randomly getting naked? I guess that's better than only one or the other, but how is that solid battle training for fighting world war 3? This is made all the more bizarre for the fact that I have no connection to Bi and little to Be at this moment. The feel very generic hero-kids to me. I'm really unfazed by this amped up mook taking his unspecified revenge on these two right now. 
 
also, if the villain was good enough to sneak in to a highly guarded government facility, kill a guard, sneak into the dormitory and splatter blood all over the room without getting any on anything else, why didn't he just take out the people he wanted to kill immediately and avoid all this unnecessary nearly-naked fighting and posturing?
 
Why is there a little girl? Why is she being used as a sponge? Why is there enough blood to have her be used as a sponge? what in all the world does kidnapping a random mook's family have to do with getting revenge on... any of the characters we've been introduced to so far?  It feels like she's only there to make Be give up a weapon. I'm so confused. 
 
I really wish Be's interest in dance had been explored more. That was an interesting bit of his character and I had hopes it would lead to something more for me to latch on to, interest-wise. I'd happily trade this villain for a fun dance-and-chat (or even a dance-and-chat-and-fight). It seems to have fallen by the wayside though, and that makes me sad. 
 
" bullet had split the ropes " I'm not sure that's physically possible, with bullets...
 
"He’d thrown away his greatest weapon" Point in fact, katanas are kind of junk as far as swords go. they're monotaskers and prone to snapping.
 
I have really not much connection to anyone or anything that's going on here. This evil tranforamtion of evil is coming out of nowhere for me and I don't find it very interesting.
 
"s katana had fallen to the ground" It was stated earlier that the bad guy purposefully dropped it. Also Be said that the superkids received *rapier* training, not katana training, and the two are not compatible. Again, however cool they might sound, a katana is not something that holds up well under stress and requires specific knowledge to use. There are so many better swords out there, I agree with @aeromancer here. 
 
What exactly has this kid done besides cut classes, especially to warrant this kind of ultra-violent revenge? This feels like crazy overkill since the only thing he's done so far in text is smart-mouth his dad and cop to ditching class.  I am so confused and still not really connecting to any of the characters. Bi might as well be a coat-rack in a bra at this point; she just stands there and interferes with Be's movement occasionally.
 
" both weapons s" I thought he only started with one sword and a gun? I am confused. Now I count three swords, two knives, a pistol, a metal-lined jacket, three times the random shirtless posing and i'm so very very lost. The villian's dialogue has turned downright silly at this point.
 
Okay, I give up. I'm sorry. I really tried.  I made it to page 16, but really, I couldn't follow any of it once the baddie appeared. I'm not invested in any of the characters besides maybe the villain, and then only up until the point he hulked out for no apparent reason. I have very little grasp of why any of this is happening, where it's happening or why I should care it's going on at all.
 
Technically the writing is good.  The piece clearly shows writing skill and a level of technical mastery. There's nothing inherently wrong with the super soldier or the child soldier tropes, either, but I need more than just those things blandly on their face in order to be interested in a story that's relying so heavily on archetypes and cliches, even down to the dialogue.
 
The thing to remember here is that Tropes Are Not Inherently Bad. They're also not inherently GOOD, either. They're tools, and shorthand, and some are far more problematic than others. They can be deliciously subverted, or comfortingly met. They can be horrifically overused and terribly written, too. Any way they are used, though, the author should be aware of them in the work. If the tropes are desired in the work, then how is the author differentiating their characters and plot from all the others using the same archetypes? How is the author turning the work from just another Trope X tale into something uniquely their own? That's what readers of genre fiction look for in trope-heavy stories. They want to see how this story makes something new out of something familiar.  Or at least, that's what I look for. I'm not sure this piece is quite there yet, but keep at it! I look forward to your next submission!
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Welcome to the group, Blaine!

- "He was right there" . . . I like the opening, but this feels a bit too conversational. You need to establish the setting a bit more and avoid generalizations.

- The dialogue between Ben and his father really throws the reader into the middle of it. I get that Ben is mouthing off out of frustration and anxiety, but it doesn't feel very realistic, since his father really doesn't say anything that sets him off.

- i don't think Ben would be so defiant if he was also terrified. We're not really seeing this in his behavior - other than his unwillingness to put his feet on the desk - we're just being told this. 

- "With body armor improving rapidly, hand to hand combat was becoming a larger part of war." This doesn't quite work for me. If body armor was improving, why would you engage in hand-to-hand combat? What weak point would body armor have that could be exploited via close quarters combat? 

-  Zack does a little too much "mustache-twirling" for me. He comes out of nowhere and is just evil for the sake of evil. Maybe build up whatever he's thinking revenge about prior to his inclusion?

- The action is very good. It's what I like best about this story. But I think for a chapter one, it's a bit all over the place. It just throws the reader into the story, and not necessarily the most interest part either. It needs a bit of reworking to get to know this character, his relations, and the world he inhabits - and maybe this needs to happen gradually instead of just in chapter one.

Hope this helps! 

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On 25/07/2017 at 2:16 AM, kais said:

Quick heads up - the sub guidelines request attaching a document. This is especially helpful for those of us without continuous internet, who may read on planes and such. If you could submit by attaching the document in the future, I would appreciate it!

Yes - seconded.

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Ha-ha, so I see that I read this before back in October. I haven’t checked my comments then; fresh approach and all that. Plus, I can’t remember anything from the title, but I dare say it will come back to me as I read. On with it then.

  • I find the use of ‘mad’ confusing, because I wasn’t sure if you meant angry or insane. This early in the story, we don’t know enough for that to be clear. Good opening sentence, but I found the stuff about friends and bit awkward.
  • When I read ‘combat training’, I sigh. I’ve lost count of the number of stories I read on here where people are having combat training or magic training.
  • This chair was nice, molded cushions and leather covers.” – This word right here – it doesn’t mean anything, it doesn’t convey anything at all, you really need to tell/show us why the chair is ‘nice’. It’s like saying ‘the coffee was good’. Why? Is it warming, strong, weak, cream instead of milk?
  • I’m having problems with the tone. The call to the president is weird. Very unpresidential. If you’re doing this for shock, okay, but it just makes me dismiss the president as a joke. You don’t sell him as being the president because there are none of the trappings, there’s no ‘wow’. He phones the president, they have a chat, ‘Bye, Pres, catch you later.’
  • Also, supersoldier. You bandy that term around a fair bit, but the story has done nothing to earn it. Why should I accept this guy is a supersoldier just because you tell me he is?
  •  “We’re at war” – I’ve really heard nothing to sell me on this, either. The president was really chatty and nonchalant for a leader burdened with the never-ending toll of war.

I had to stop here, I was not at all invested in the characters or the set up (what little there was).

There’s an awful lot of telling in there and almost no earning the emotions and conflicts that you’re discussing. We’ve seen nothing of what ben’s life is like, what his daily experience is, we’re just told about it. That is not a good way of getting the reader on board, because how can we feel what Ben’s feeling or sympathise with it if we don’t see anything of his experience?

I think you need to show us (not tell us) what Ben’s life is like, what life is like in this country; hardship; conflict; battle; threat; death; famine; disease. Or show us how hard Ben is worked, what his capabilities are, how much stress he is under, before you ask us to empathise with him. There’s nothing to empathise with at the moment, imho.

You made a comment about subtlety above. That is not a word that I would apply to this piece. Telling the reader this big, glaring facts without showing anything of the emotional or personal cost is not the ideal set-up for subtlety.

The point about him being 7 when he joined, and the discussion around it, also was strange to me. How is a 7 year-old supposed to be a cogent and informed decision about something like that? A 7 year-old does not have the tools to make any sort of judgement like that. Notwithstanding that, Ben is being incredibly naive. How was his father supposed to tell him what it would feel like? No one is able to tell anyone how something is going to feel to them, not really.

<R>

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