Uses of Hemalurgy

[Hawkido]

Just now, The Flash said:

well they have life force that can be spiked. I would have to use a needle. A hemalurgic needle lol

That is kinda what made me think about Hemalurgic tattoos... where the Spike on that system was the ink injected... and Nalthis uses ink

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Hawkido said:

That is kinda what made me think about Hemalurgic tattoos... where the Spike on that system was the ink injected... and Nalthis uses ink

I think it would be more likely that you'd be spiked by the needle itself. using the ink as a spike sounds... weird. 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, The Flash said:

well they have life force that can be spiked. I would have to use a needle. A hemalurgic needle lol

Hemalurgy was inspired by acupuncture, so that's very fitting. 

[Hawkido]

30 minutes ago, The Flash said:

using the ink as a spike sounds... weird. 

So, does this sound messy enough for Ruin?  And there are several Inks and Dyes made from metallic compounds, perhaps you could make your spike a fluid.

Force the proper color dye into the bloodstream/bodypart (I.e. eye) of your victim, as it kills them you draw out the blood/bodyfluid  and use it as a tattoo ink upon the recipient, depending on where you put the tattoo determines what portion of a heightening you steal.  The equivalent of Spiking through the victim into the recipient would be running the Ink through them and into the target as they died.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Hawkido

[+hwiles]

1 hour ago, Hawkido said:

So, does this sound messy enough for Ruin?  And there are several Inks and Dyes made from metallic compounds, perhaps you could make your spike a fluid.

Force the proper color dye into the bloodstream/bodypart (I.e. eye) of your victim, as it kills them you draw out the blood/bodyfluid  and use it as a tattoo ink upon the recipient, depending on where you put the tattoo determines what portion of a heightening you steal.  The equivalent of Spiking through the victim into the recipient would be running the Ink through them and into the target as they died.

Injecting metal flecks into someone's bloodstream probably wouldn't be sufficient to confer a hemalurgic charge to the metal, as it wouldn't "pierce" their bindpoints, it would just flow through them.  You could theoretically grind a hemalurgic spike down into a powder, however, I believe it's been established that smaller spikes suffer more rapid degradation of their charge, so a powdered spike would very rapidly lose its potency.  Since ink in a tattoo doesn't generally contact flowing blood, I don't think it would be able to confer power to the recipient..however...neither do earings, and those can grant powers, so I guess maybe?  It would still run into the problem of not "piercing" a bind point, but lying across it, which may not be sufficient.

Overall, I'd say your proposal might be possible depending on the nitty-gritty specifics of how hemalurgy works that haven't been revealed yet, but overall, it would be a lot of extra work for (probably) a lot less power.  Considering you typically have to murder someone any time you want a new hemalurgic power, I would think that conservation and efficiency would be a very high priority for any dedicated practitioner...

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Injecting metal flecks into someone's bloodstream probably wouldn't be sufficient to confer a hemalurgic charge to the metal, as it wouldn't "pierce" their bindpoints, it would just flow through them.  You could theoretically grind a hemalurgic spike down into a powder, however, I believe it's been established that smaller spikes suffer more rapid degradation of their charge, so a powdered spike would very rapidly lose its potency.  Since ink in a tattoo doesn't generally contact flowing blood, I don't think it would be able to confer power to the recipient..however...neither do earings, and those can grant powers, so I guess maybe?  It would still run into the problem of not "piercing" a bind point, but lying across it, which may not be sufficient.

Overall, I'd say your proposal might be possible depending on the nitty-gritty specifics of how hemalurgy works that haven't been revealed yet, but overall, it would be a lot of extra work for (probably) a lot less power.  Considering you typically have to murder someone any time you want a new hemalurgic power, I would think that conservation and efficiency would be a very high priority for any dedicated practitioner...

It still disregards this WoB that I posted on the previous page that states plainly that other systems still require spikes. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#120

Quote

ODIUM'S_SHARD

Lastly, less pressingly, do Spirit Points (hemalurgic spots) apply to ever magic system, and through the Cosmere at large? Ie. could Hemalurgy be used to take any other magic systems aspects, and do other magic systems also have these 'Points', such as Body Focuses, that work in similar ways?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hemalurgy crosses magic systems. You could steal things from people on other worlds, if you knew the right places for the spikes.

 

[+hwiles]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

It still disregards this WoB that I posted on the previous page that states plainly that other systems still require spikes. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#120

 

Right, that's actually the point I was trying to make.  Obviously it didn't come across as clearly as I had intended...Meant to underscore that, unless you're piercing people's bindpoints and contacting blood, hemalurgy probably shouldn't work unless you're somehow hacking it somehow.

I don't like to slam the door on the possibility of charging spikes in ways other than stabbing bindpoints that establish the network of connections (lower case) between a being's physical, cognitive, and spiritual aspects, as Sanderson has said that, if you really know what you're doing, you could probably get any type of Investiture into a spike.  However, the idea of someone using hemalurgy in a real non-standard way onscreen is, in my opinion, extremely unlikely.

[Calderis]

@hwiles didn't mean to come across as saying you were agreeing with it. 

It just bothers me when the knowledge we do have is contradicted without some form of supporting evidence. 

The Cosmere is as fascinating as it is because of it's rules. If those rules are going to be broken, there needs to be a logical explanation of how those rules have been circumvented.

I've yet to see that in any of the theories that say hemalurgy somehow changes on other worlds. 

[+hwiles]

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@hwiles didn't mean to come across as saying you were agreeing with it. 

It just bothers me when the knowledge we do have is contradicted without some form of supporting evidence. 

The Cosmere is as fascinating as it is because of it's rules. If those rules are going to be broken, there needs to be a logical explanation of how those rules have been circumvented.

I've yet to see that in any of the theories that say hemalurgy somehow changes on other worlds. 

Ah, understood, thank you for the clarification.  I thought Hawkido's hemalurgic tattoo idea was inventive and interesting enough to warrant some exploration even though I don't believe it would obey all of the currently understood rules of hemalurgy.

But back to the original question:

I think people get way too hung up on the idea of using hemalurgy for stealing magical abilities.  The root problem with hemalurgy is that Ruin (Harmony) can seize control of any hemalurgic construct with too many spikes.  The number of spikes is somewhat variable, but it's still a huge problem.  What this means is that if you want to really use hemalurgy to gain power for yourself, you ought to consider spiking other people (or animals) and giving yourself as few spikes as possible, maybe none if you can help it.  Rats, pigeons, and other pests that can easily be bred in massive quantities would be great sources of low-quality spikes that could then be used to warp higher lifeforms, like people, dogs, or alligators and bears into mindless killing-machines.  In SoS we see that these types of constructs can possess the intelligence and sense of purpose required to carry out a complicated ambush (a fairly delicate attack maneuver), all while still being resistant to mind-control, but also possessing some measure of loyalty to their creator.

If I was an evil worldhopper, I wouldn't be gathering Investiture to stab into myself, I'd be stabbing it into other things and building an army.  Just look at pre-catacendre koloss: they could eat dirt, meaning virtually zero upkeep is required.  A legion of pigeon-bear-rats that could subsist on nothing but dirt, obey complicated dynamic commands, and resist shardic mind-control would be utterly terrifying.  Honestly...I don't know what could even be done about them, their owner would simply have to be obeyed...

[Hawkido]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

The root problem with hemalurgy is that Ruin (Harmony) can seize control of any hemalurgic construct with too many spikes.

Actually That vulnerability is open to anyone, not just a shard.  and Hemalurgy can also grant resistance to such control (Kandra Blessing of Stability).

But selective traits when combined would be ideal:

Healing:  You would want/need a way to heal from near instantly fatal wounds.  I believe Double Gold is better than Stormlight, as I believe a windrunner will just die if you decapitate him, or burn him to a skeleton.  (Sanderson changed his mind about being able to heal shard blade spinal kills, as Szeth was originally struck in the neck and his eyes burnt, but he revised it in a latter printing, either that conflicts with another event, or he doesn't want false resurrection hopes to be flogged about, #repeatedly-resurrected-hero-syndrome).

Speed and/or Future sense:  Nothing will get you out of a tight jam better than knowing what is coming, or being able to outrun what is coming.

Sustainability: Being able to easily top off your reserves.  Breaths are not a very sustainable energy source, Like waiting for trees to grow, Stormlight well it can be a while between storms, and Gems Of Unusual Size aren't that common or easy to keep handy.  But eating... well you have to do that anyway, so, sorry Lift?

Transportation:  Something to make WorldHopping Easier.  Why walk or even fly to a perpendicularity? ElseCall, it pretty much already needs an anomaly as an anchorpoint anyway.  How to do this via Hemalurgy, we don't know yet, but we can think it might just be possible.

Longevity:  TLR, Atium gave him a long life via Atium Compounding, and with the Well filling every 1000 years I am sure he could have reset the clock so it would be easier to make the next 1000 years, but if he had 2,000 breaths it would be Much Much easier to make that rare atium last, if it were even needed.  I don't know if Hemalurgy would be needed to get breaths, I don't believe so, as General Demeux seems to have weathered the past 300-500 years pretty good, but I would get 2000, by any means.  No Disease, and almost Poison-proof, and no more ageing.

Now how to fill the offensive side of my battle card?

Edited July 25, 2017 by Hawkido

[+hwiles]

Magic users are usually spaced few and far between for defensive purposes. I maintain that an army of 1,000,000 flying bear-rats, divided in squads a few thousand strong could devastate most planets in the Cosmere with their current capabilities. Sure, Susebron could fight and kill any number of them personally, but his range is limited. While he and the knights radiant were killing one batallion, another would be harvesting a different city for new-recruits.

Once you have enough constructs to populate your own world, you just leave and start your own interstellar empire away from your former enemies. Maybe invade them periodically to mix things up. Odium seems to be having a good time, so I'd copy his model.

[Oversleep]

2 hours ago, Hawkido said:

(Sanderson changed his mind about being able to heal shard blade spinal kills, as Szeth was originally struck in the neck and his eyes burnt, but he revised it in a latter printing, either that conflicts with another event, or he doesn't want false resurrection hopes to be flogged about, #repeatedly-resurrected-hero-syndrome).

Actually that remained unchanged. The previous version still works.

[+Extesian]

Oversleep is right of course.  The new ending is for character reasons but doesn't change any realmatics or anything. Both editions are canon

Quote

AGROOSTER (REDDIT)

Highprince Sando,

Thank you for the hundreds of hours of entertainment you've provided me with your works. I am currently fascinated by your decision to alter the ending to WoR. I understand it was especially necessary for you considering how intent and self realization are inherently tied to the surgebinding magic system. It must have been a tough decision to move forward with a mass change like this nonetheless. What are the logistical implications? Do you know the time frame or if it will be possible at all to change the audiobooks? I'd think at the earliest those wouldn't be possible until the third book comes out (since Michael Kramer and Kate Reading will already be in the booth) but I'm just guessing at this point. How will the roll out of WoR 2.0 proceed?

BRANDON SANDERSON (REDDIT)

Thanks!

It was a tough decision. I think Lucas has ruined doing things like this for a lot of people, and I was certain many readers would dislike it. (Turns out, there have been fewer voices against it than I'd assumed.)

One of the things I'll be doing is making sure Book Three works with either version of the ending. I consider the changes minor. The big reason I made the swap, however, was that (I hope) these books will be read for years to come, and I wanted to get the right ending.

It shouldn't be TOO bad logistically. Remember, the changes shouldn't matter too much for the story as a whole. We will be changing the audiobooks if we can, however, but you're probably right--book three will be when it happens.

I don't plan this to be a common occurrence, but at the same time, I was increasingly certain I wanted this tweak made. So I did it for my own peace of mind, though I figured the majority of fans would rather I not.

 

[AbsentKeeper]

4 hours ago, hwiles said:

Magic users are usually spaced few and far between for defensive purposes. I maintain that an army of 1,000,000 flying bear-rats, divided in squads a few thousand strong could devastate most planets in the Cosmere with their current capabilities. Sure, Susebron could fight and kill any number of them personally, but his range is limited. While he and the knights radiant were killing one batallion, another would be harvesting a different city for new-recruits.

Once you have enough constructs to populate your own world, you just leave and start your own interstellar empire away from your former enemies. Maybe invade them periodically to mix things up. Odium seems to be having a good time, so I'd copy his model.

This was quite possibly this best thing I've read this week, even if it is a departure from the other discussion 

Not sure that I can say it's off topic though, as the title is 'uses of hemalurgy.' I can definitly say that it's silly and brilliant though 

 

[+Extesian]

3 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

This was quite possibly this best thing I've read this week, even if it is a departure from the other discussion 

Not sure that I can say it's off topic though, as the title is 'uses of hemalurgy.' I can definitly say that it's silly and brilliant though 

 

I think that spiking into an entire population a love of eating chicken, and then denying them chicken, is the ultimate weapon.

But flying bear-rats have their undeniable charm

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

I think that spiking into an entire population a love of eating chicken, and then denying them chicken, is the ultimate weapon.

But flying bear-rats have their undeniable charm

I've always been partial to the catquisitors myself. 

[+hwiles]

34 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

This was quite possibly this best thing I've read this week, even if it is a departure from the other discussion 

Not sure that I can say it's off topic though, as the title is 'uses of hemalurgy.' I can definitly say that it's silly and brilliant though 

 

Why thank you. I'm surprised no one raised the objection that spiking one million bears might requiring extincting them entirely on a planet, which would be really sad. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I believe that would be roughly all the bears on Earth...granted, there used to be a lot more, and they used to be a lot bigger...if you think I'm mistaken feel free to fact check this, zoology was never my strongest subject.

That said, for an immortal with access to many planets, it wouldn't be a crazy feat, just time consuming 

[AbsentKeeper]

4 minutes ago, hwiles said:

That said, for an immortal with access to many planets, it wouldn't be a crazy feat, just time consuming 

No one said it would be easy, just entertaining.

Hey, a worldhopper's gotta have a hobby, right?

[+hwiles]

4 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

No one said it would be easy, just entertaining.

Hey, a worldhopper's gotta have a hobby, right?

Exactly! For an immortal godlike space-wizard, I assume the humdrum of standard scientific investigation, raising a family, and building positive relationships, would eventually get maddeningly boring, despite the many obvious and recognizable charms.

This is why SimCity had a "create disaster" button.

Someday, somewhere, someone in the Cosmere will achieve immortality and knowledge of hemalurgy and crippling boredom, and their natural curiosity will eventually lead them to some dark places. It might take a long time, but someone will create my gosh darn army of flying bear-rats.

[+Extesian]

Do the bear-rats like chicken?

[Agent34]

30 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Do the bear-rats like chicken?

That likely depends on the types of bears and rats as well as the individuals.

[+hwiles]

If they don't, we'll splice them with alligators; those things go wild for chicken.

[StrikerEZ]

13 hours ago, Extesian said:

Do the bear-rats like chicken?

For some reason I read this as "Do the bear-rats like children?"

I was severely confused.

[Calderis]

24 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

For some reason I read this as "Do the bear-rats like children?"

I was severely confused.

Well they're bear-rats, so I'd assume that meat is meat is meat. 

Chicken, children, what's the difference right? 

[StrikerEZ]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Well they're bear-rats, so I'd assume that meat is meat is meat. 

Chicken, children, what's the difference right? 

Yeah, that was my second thought. 

But my first was "Why would a bear-rat like children and hug them and stuff?"

For some reason I thought it was like as in liking something, not liking the taste of something.