kalaxin

Uses of Hemalurgy

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The essay in Arcanum Unbounded about Scadrial mentions that in all likelihood Hemalurgy is the form of Investiture on the planet that can likely have the most impact on the greater cosmere. This is obviously because Hemalurgy can be performed by anyone, but it made me start wondering whether it could steal abilities from non-Scadrian magic system. It seems to me that it should for abilities that are genetic in nature (despite that many major magic systems aren't).

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Yes, Hemalurgy can steal anything. Not only stuff that's genetic. It can steal anything that's in the Spiritweb - for example you could steal a Shardblade that way: spike him for his end of the bond end.

There's also an interesting WoB about spiking spren but I have a feeling somebody will come along and quote it. Maybe @Calderis, maybe @Extesian, they love that WoB. Wouldn't want to Ruin their fun.

Edited by Oversleep
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I was going to throw this one out in support of what @Oversleep just said. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#42

Quote

KURKISTAN

Can Hemalurgy be used to steal Shardblades directly, transferring ownership from the victim to the spike's recipient without a need for the recipient to physically take the Shardblade first?

BRANDON SANDERSON

A novel use of Hemalurgy which is not outside the sphere of its powers.

The other one is up to @Extesian, I can never find it for some reason. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

I was going to throw this one out in support of what @Oversleep just said. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#42

The other one is up to @Extesian, I can never find it for some reason. 

Because it's not in theoryland yet. Extesian actually helped transcribe it - it's from Krakow Signing in Poland.

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This one

Quote

Q: Can spren be pierced by hemalurgic spikes? Will it give some effect?
A: Yes. A spren can be pierced by invested metal…
Q: Could it be spiked?
A: Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well.
Q: Could you steal from a spren?
A: Yes you could steal the investiture of a spren. Any investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren.
Q: Because I thought you said hemalurgy needs moving blood.
A: It needs, uh, yeah…there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form.
Q: The Cognitive Realm?
A: Yeah if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently.
Q: So you could spike in the cognitive realm?
A: Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any investiture into hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for hemalurgy. Let’s just say that.
Q: We do not concern ourselves with common uses.
A: Yeah I know you don’t. But yeah hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you…you’ll see when we get around to it.

And this one

Quote

Questioner: With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths when they get to the other planets?
Brandon: So, spikes rip off pieces of the soul, and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul.  You could maybe get a divine Breath, but I haven’t really decided on regular Breaths, they’re kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm, which is not something the spikes are dealing with.  Divine Breath potentially, because that’s like something that’s actually melding on to your soul

And this one

Quote

Q: If Hemalurgy can be used to transfer Investiture regardless of the planet, is someone gathering pieces of different Investitures the way Hoid for example got lerasium bead.
A:  Yes. 

And this one

Quote

Q: You've said before that if a sentient computer were developed, it would call a soul into itself. Could it be hemalurgically spiked?
 
A: Theoretically, yes, but I have no idea yet how the logistics of that would work.

And this wonderful one

Quote

Q: Is it possible to steal more than just spiritual DNA with hemalurgy? If you, say, infused someone with a hundred hemalurgic spikes charged from people who liked chicken, would the spike person enjoy chicken as well?
 
A: You can steal quite a lot with Hemalurgy. Anything encoded on a person's soul, really. Not sure if chicken liking counts, though...

 

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Sorry for the sidetrack, but this isn't worth it's own thread

@Extesian this WoB you posted 

Quote

Questioner: With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths when they get to the other planets?
Brandon: So, spikes rip off pieces of the soul, and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul.  You could maybe get a divine Breath, but I haven’t really decided on regular Breaths, they’re kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm, which is not something the spikes are dealing with.  Divine Breath potentially, because that’s like something that’s actually melding on to your soul

It kills the sacrifice angle I thought of with the Returned. The Divine breath is fused into the spiritual aspect of the returned, not the Cognitive, so the act of giving up their Divine Breath to heal someone should leave their Cognitive aspect intact to go beyond. 

It's a much happier ending for the returned, but I find it less compelling, and wonder why anyone would turn Endowment down. 

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I wonder how would a spren react if you stole a nahel bond with hemalurgy. probably not well. and probably the nahel bond will break unless the new user behaves with his spren.

I also wonder if you steal a nahel bond and then you break it, if the spike would still be functional, or if it would just revert to a piece of metal. same goes for a divine breath that is acquired that way and then spent.

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3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I wonder how would a spren react if you stole a nahel bond with hemalurgy. probably not well. and probably the nahel bond will break unless the new user behaves with his spren.

I also wonder if you steal a nahel bond and then you break it, if the spike would still be functional, or if it would just revert to a piece of metal. same goes for a divine breath that is acquired that way and then spent.

It seems likely that in most cases the Spren would inherently reject the bond at that point. 

I think you'd be left with the spiritual residue of a broken bond, because the spike can't differentiate between an active and broken bond. It just holds a chunk of a soul. 

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Reminder we have conflicting WoBs about steling Breaths by Hemalurgy.

Also, nice job, @Extesian! Although you forgot to include that Hemalurgy "doesn't really work on trees".

(Hmm... I tried to source that claim and it seems to come from here.)

Edited by Oversleep
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2 hours ago, Extesian said:

Q: If Hemalurgy can be used to transfer Investiture regardless of the planet, is someone gathering pieces of different Investitures the way Hoid for example got lerasium bead.
A:  Yes. 

 

I've never read this one before.  Sound like an endgame villain to anyone else?  

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20 minutes ago, OscarTheSingingHobo said:

I've never read this one before.  Sound like an endgame villain to anyone else?  

It could. Then again, it could be a still functioning Steel Inquisitor with a load of spikes already...

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38 minutes ago, OscarTheSingingHobo said:

I've never read this one before.  Sound like an endgame villain to anyone else?  

16 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

It could. Then again, it could be a still functioning Steel Inquisitor with a load of spikes already...

The problem with this plan is they need some way to shut out outside control. 

The way that Ruin controlled the inquisitors isn't exclusive to Ruin, its available to anyone of sufficient power who has an ability to reach out and touch their mind/emotions. The more spikes, the more vulnerable they are. 

A villain full of spikes would be inviting control by either a Shard or someone with an ability to interfere. 

Yes they could be a major threat, but they have a very very big weakness. 

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22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The problem with this plan is they need some way to shut out outside control. 

The way that Ruin controlled the inquisitors isn't exclusive to Ruin, its available to anyone of sufficient power who has an ability to reach out and touch their mind/emotions. The more spikes, the more vulnerable they are. 

A villain full of spikes would be inviting control by either a Shard or someone with an ability to interfere. 

Yes they could be a major threat, but they have a very very big weakness. 

well, as for emotional control, a simple tinfoil hat is enough to take care of that.

as for control of a shard, I'm a bit hazy. A shard has the power to move planets, it also has the power to incinerate somebody on the spot; so if the shard wants to stop that person, it does not need to take control of them through hemalurgic spikes. In some case there is a problem with the shard's intent, but I always seen the whole point of when and what a shard will do as a somewhat weak point in the cosmere.

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7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

well, as for emotional control, a simple tinfoil hat is enough to take care of that.

You'd have to also block off the spikes themselves as they give a direct route to the soul. 

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

as for control of a shard, I'm a bit hazy. A shard has the power to move planets, it also has the power to incinerate somebody on the spot; so if the shard wants to stop that person, it does not need to take control of them through hemalurgic spikes. In some case there is a problem with the shard's intent, but I always seen the whole point of when and what a shard will do as a somewhat weak point in the cosmere.

The only time we've seen a Shard able to do this is because they were completely unopposed. 

TLR used a portion of Preservation's power while Ruin was actually held trapped by Preservation. Harmony didn't have anything in his way either. 

Someone held Preservation in opposition to Ruin at all times and so he was unable to simply end Scadrial as he wanted. 

Bleeder had a way to stay hidden and uncontrolled from Harmony. 

A Shard is pretty much only limited by it's own intent, and other Shards. 

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2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

as for control of a shard, I'm a bit hazy. A shard has the power to move planets, it also has the power to incinerate somebody on the spot; so if the shard wants to stop that person, it does not need to take control of them through hemalurgic spikes. In some case there is a problem with the shard's intent, but I always seen the whole point of when and what a shard will do as a somewhat weak point in the cosmere.

Maybe. At the same time, then why did Ruin have to use Ironeyes to kill the messenger that Spook sent? Why didn't he kill Elend and Vin and all of the others? Why didn't he just kill anyone and everyone who could stop him?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

Since this thread is about uses of Hemalurgy, here are some questions:

Would it be possible to use Hemalurgy on a Dakhor Monk? I can see two obstacles:1. In monks who were fully developed (not like Hrathen), the bone structure might get in the way, stopping a spike from having a channel to go all the way through. 2. The abilities seem to be tied to the warping of the bones. Almost like a part of the Dakhor magic is based on the physical, not just the spiritual.

Would a Dakhor spike steal the Dakhor-ness, or would it only steal some aspect, like strength, speed, agility, or anti-AonDor-ness?

Would a Dakhor spike leave you looking like normal, or would your bones also shift and twist, etc? Most of the examples of spiked people still looked the same, but Kandra and Koloss are examples of when a spike changed you physically. Also, Forgery also rewrites the spirit-web, and it too changes things physically.

 

What about an Elantrian Spike? Would it give you the ability to draw Aons as well as the body of an Elantrian? Or would you have to get multiple spikes to get all of the aspects of an Elantrian?

If Hemalurgy became prevalent on Sel, would it become possible for a Forger to have Essence Marks that give you Hemalurgical Spikes, without needing to spike someone?

 

PS: We really need a way to spit the two meanings of "spiking" someone. There is both spiking someone to steal an attribute, and spiking someone to give them an attribute. Anyone have good terms that could differentiate between the two meanings?

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1 hour ago, Knight Oblivion said:

It could. Then again, it could be a still functioning Steel Inquisitor with a load of spikes already...

"There's always another secret" springs to mind as someone who might go running around trying to collect all the power he can. 

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6 hours ago, Extesian said:

Q: Could you steal from a spren?
A: Yes you could steal the investiture of a spren. Any investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren.

To me, this sounds like something he's already considered, and maybe used behind the scenes.

Might be worth thinking about that we don't know exactly how spren are trapped in gemstones to make fabrials, or how its done by the listeners. I think that the reason it would be easy to use the investiture of a spren this way is because you could simply trap the spren in the spike, rather than needing to physically spike it.

Edit: Just realized that I was assuming in my head that hemalurgic spikes can be made from things other than metal, which I have no proof for, but I don't see why any invested object with a piece of a soul attached (or a whole one, in the case of a spren) wouldn't do.

Edited by Cowmanthethird
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7 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Yes, Hemalurgy can steal anything. Not only stuff that's genetic. It can steal anything that's in the Spiritweb - for example you could steal a Shardblade that way: spike him for his end of the bond end.

There's also an interesting WoB about spiking spren but I have a feeling somebody will come along and quote it. Maybe @Calderis, maybe @Extesian, they love that WoB. Wouldn't want to Ruin their fun.

So you could possibly spike a Spren to gain surgebinding abilities but if you spiked the person with the Nahel bond the spren could just break the bond afterwards? That seems to kinda make sense

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I have a bit of catching up to do J

@Oversleep, I can’t find anything more formal for the ‘hemalurgy doesn’t work on trees’ claim. Reddit user Phantine has put it up a few times, it seems it’s @Phantom Monstrosity on the forums? Phantine I know you haven’t posted in 3 years, but if you see this and have a transcription or formal reddit answer I’d love to see it. I’ve wondered about this one for a while. We do have confirmation about Kwaan understanding realmatics and wanting to interact with trees’ cognitive aspect.

 

The conflicting WoBs on stealing breaths with hemalurgy are on my Unmaking the canon thread

I think it leans towards normal breath being impossible, because it’s physical, and Divine Breath being non-canonized, Brandon’s making up his mind, as that WoB I posted is very new. If Divine Breath is on the Spiritual Realm, unlike normal Breath, it should be spikable unless there’s something more going on.

 

@Calderis, I don’t think the bit about Divine Breath being spiritual undoes the theory of Returned dying completely when they give up their splinter, in fact it’s the very reason I agreed with you on that. If a Divine Breath is integrated into the Returned’s spiritweb, then expending the Divine Breath to heal is actually expending part of the investiture that makes up the Cognitive Shadow.

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1 minute ago, Extesian said:

Calderis, I don’t think the bit about Divine Breath being spiritual undoes the theory of Returned dying completely when they give up their splinter, in fact it’s the very reason I agreed with you on that. If a Divine Breath is integrated into the Returned’s spiritweb, then expending the Divine Breath to heal is actually expending part of the investiture that makes up the Cognitive Shadow

See, I think this is where Brandon's use of the word "soul" is confusing. If it's tied directly to the spiritweb, I think it would consume the "soul" it's attached to, but would allow the Cognitive aspect, the expanded "soul" that normally remains in a traditional Cognitive Shadow. 

I would really like the word soul to only apply to one aspect or the other. 

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While spiking was the method for Hemalurgy on a planet that uses metal as a focus, I am in the camp that thinks it would be different on a planet with a different focus.  However I still think it would involve blood.  So would Hemalurgy on Nalthis be via Tattoos (Tears of Edgli make Dye, dye plus blood equals tattoo)?  Breaths seem to be too easily transferrable, other than perhaps using hemalurgy to somehow steal the breaths, but as the breath of a normal person doesn't expire, I would assume that hemalurgy would instead forceably convert someone into an awakened form of themself subject to command phrases, therefor "Ruining" them and leading to atrophy.  thus you can awaken something without having the requisite breaths by stealing the inherent breath of the host in the process.  But that would mean that a drab could not be taken in this way.  Questions and looney theories are why I am here.

Edited by Hawkido
Clarity.
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Why would Hemalurgy not use metal on another world? Allomancy still requires metal when it's used away from Scadrial.

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33 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Why would Hemalurgy not use metal on another world? Allomancy still requires metal when it's used away from Scadrial.

My viewpoint on it is that metal is probably not a 'spiritual match' for other forms of invesiture. It only acts as a conduit for stealing allomantic and feruchemical powers because the metals are the conduit those powers draw investiture through from Preservation.

Edited by Cowmanthethird
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5 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

My viewpoint on it is that metal is probably not a 'spiritual match' for other forms of invesiture. It only acts as a conduit for stealing allomantic and feruchemical powers because the metals are the conduit those powers draw investiture through from Preservation.

Hemalurgy is its own magic system. It does not hijack the focus of other magics, it developed between Scadrial and Ruin and thus uses metal as its focus. 

It should function exactly the same cosmere wide, just like any other system. Allomancy uses Metal on Roshar. Awakening is fueled by Breath. Surgebinding requires a Spren and Stormlight. 

Hemalurgy uses metal spikes. It is it's own system. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Hemalurgy is its own magic system. It does not hijack the focus of other magics, it developed between Scadrial and Ruin and thus uses metal as its focus. 

It should function exactly the same cosmere wide, just like any other system. Allomancy uses Metal on Roshar. Awakening is fueled by Breath. Surgebinding requires a Spren and Stormlight. 

Hemalurgy uses metal spikes. It is it's own system. 

I've seen Brandon RAFO several questions about whether materials other than metal can be used in hemalurgy. Its my personal opinion that hemalurgy has been mistaken, in universe, as a metallic art, when its really just a universal way to manipulate investiture. There really is no proof either way until we see someone steal something other than allomancy or feruchemy, or Brandon finally answers that question though.

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