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Shadesmar,voidbringers, and soulcasting, a correlation.


Con578

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This is a small theory about the creatures shallan sees in shadesmar/her drawings .My curiosity is way that the creatures were introduced to characters. The characters are:

Shallan(obviously) :In shallan' s case, it was relatively blatant that she could only see the creatures through her drawings.

Gaz: He sees them in the "darkness" (where he can't see due to the unfortunate lack of an eye) and this is mentioned a few times late after kaladin's arrival at the warcamps

Elhokar: We see this in his fear of assassin's, Quote page 1902:

“Yes,” Elhokar replied. “And yet they are savages, and easily manipulated. It would be a perfect distraction, pinning the blame on a group of parshmen. We go to war for years and years, never noticing the real villains, working quietly in my own camp. They watch me. Always. Waiting. I see their faces in mirrors. Symbols, twisted, inhuman …”

This is very similar to the description's given by shallan about the creature's from shadesmar.

Now let's turn back the clock a bit. We see elhokar's fear of assassins, shallan' drawings, and Gaz's lack of an eye, all show hints at these creatures. This means that there is something in common guaranteed, due to other big plot points in Sanderson's other books being given 1 or 2 hints, so 3 is basically a guarantee. 

So, each of these hints show key points in a character, revealing the creatures from shadesmar.

what does this mean? Suprisingly, we still don't know enough about kaladin's backstory to determine much from his relationship starting with syl. But let's assume that he's never seen the creatures as he has never soulcast  and never been to shadesmar. This means that only certain types of radiants can soulcast. Now having all three of these well set up characters all have the same power seems a bit of a waste to me. This means that multiple types of radiant's can soulcast, but in kaladin's case( and lift's ) not all types can soulcast. We pretty much already knew that though, right? So let's extend.

Soulcasters. We see from dalinar's trip to fever stone keep that no soulcaster's dropped down from the radiants when they betrayed their oaths. What did all of these radiant's have in common?  They were all once in the front lines in battle. These were the radiant's returning from the front lines. They weren't bond-smiths Light-weavers, and truth-seekers. These were edgedancers wind-runners and sky-breakers.  So. There you have it right? Only some radiant's can soulcast and this theory was useless because we already knew this.

now getting back on topic, The main part of the theory originates from these two quotes from WoK

Blood of my fathers, Dalinar thought, gripping the stone railing, leaning forward. Those aren’t stones. They’re creatures. Massive creatures, easily five or six times the size of a person, their skin dull and grey like granite. They had long limbs and skeletal bodies, the forelegs—or were they arms?—set into wide shoulders. The faces were lean, narrow. Arrowlike.”

The darkness becomes a palace. Let it rule! Let it rule!”

now, as I have said, two hints at one thing is a near confirmation in the way of Sanderson. What I am stating is that the figures shallan,elhokar, and gaz see are the same Guant stone creatures we see recurring a few times, namely at the the start of the series from the herald's perspective.

first of all, we know these creatures have something to do with soulcasting. How? Kaladin hasn't seen them or been to shadesmar, and he doesn't soulcast. (Neither does lift). Meanwhile shallan has, and she soulcasts. Elhokar and gaz just don't give enough information, but have the same description of the creatures. So, quote 1 analyzed. The second one refers to the creatures, in my point of view, as darkness. Why? The creatures described are always dark, and in the pure lake were dark as well (dalinar's visions). Even if this is inaccurate, dalinar's visions represent them as a dark stone like creature. So then they form a palace, let it rule! Sound familiar? What could form a palace from nothing? Soul casting.the creatures shallan sees, share a vague description( being only in the spiritual realm( shadesmar)  and then the creatures dalinar's sees in his visions are soulcasting. And shadesmar is a soulcasting "hotspot" if you will. Now for one final touch.

This I don't have the exact quote for, and am re reading the books to find it. But I remember one of the heralds saying that the parshendi/parshmen aren't the voidbringers. Something else is. I dismissed when I first read it, thinking that the herald had been driven insane or something other. Now I think he is right, and moreover, that these creatures are. The creatures were also lying dead on the battlefield, and most scholars agree that the desolations were wars between the voidbringers and man. So those creatures are guaranteed the voidbringers. So that's my theory. The creatures in shadesmar are the same as those in dalinar's visions. Just in a different form due to shadesmar.

And hey if I'm wrong elhokar and gaz are still potential radiant's.

here's a quote I think is important but have no idea what to do with:Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.” An odd ritual to become a radiant?

I think death ramblings can predict the future due to this:

Doesn't Szeth do this in wor?

“In the storm I awaken, falling, spinning, grieving.”

 

 

                 

 

 

 

 

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First off, the fact that Shallan has seen these creatures (which I will refer to as symbol-shades), and has entered Shadesmar, while Kaladin hasn't seen them and hasn't entered Shadesmar is really not enough to imply that you need to be a soulcaster to see the symbol-shades. However, I do agree that the fact that we have had three different characters refer to these symbol-shades is a sign that they are important. I think there is a possibility (very, very small, but existent) that you have to have entered Shadesmar, or have some way to access Shadesmar to be able to see the symbol-shades.

However, we don't have anything showing any signs that Jasnah has seen the symbol-shades, and she has a lot more experience in Shadesmar than Shallan, so I doubt that it has to do with Soulcasting directly. No, your reference to the stone creatures in Dalinar's visions (combined with a theory I've recently read) makes me suspect that the symbol-shades are Cognitive Shadows, as well as voidbringers who haven't crossed into the PR yet. This brings in a correlation to Shadesmar, but doesn't really connect Shallan, Gaz and Elhokar.

Honestly, I think that you'd have better luck figuring out why people can see the symbol-shades if you focused on established similarities between Shallan, Gaz, and Elhokar. Particularly looking that how they can see the symbol-shades (drawing, mirrors, darkness, etc.) and how their different methods of vision are related and how they differ.

 

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The symbolheads Salman sees are highspren, also called cryptics. They are the rulers of spren in shadesmar,  and it would make sense they monitor the leader of the most powerful country in the physical realm. Gaz is probably not seeing the same things.

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My understanding was that the symbol creatures were just cryptics. A type of radiant spren that makes someone a light weaver. Also you are correct not all orders have the ability to soulcast only the two orders with the surge of transformation which are the lightweavers and the elsecallers (jasnah and shallan for example). I'm not exactly sure what the significance of Elhokar and Gaz seeing the cryptic spren is but perhaps it's as simple as them being chosen to also become lightweavers? I don't find this likely although it certainly would be fun to see that progression in those characters

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5 minutes ago, john203 said:

The symbolheads Salman sees are highspren, also called cryptics. They are the rulers of spren in shadesmar,  and it would make sense they monitor the leader of the most powerful country in the physical realm. Gaz is probably not seeing the same things.

Actually the high spren are the spren that bond to make people skybreakers. The cryptics, aka liespren, are the ones that shallan and elhokar see and possibly Gaz too, I'll have to re-read that section before I decide whether or not I believe he's seeing the same. But perhaps you are right and they're just there to watch people. We see their obsession with truths and knowing secrets in the first two books and they seem to keep appearing to characters who are near the action without always being part of it. Also they seem to appear to people near other radiants. Elhokar is near Dalinar and Renarin quite often so the cryptics could be monitoring the other radiants through Elhokar. And Gaz is near Kaladin a bunch at first and then once he leaves he joins up with Shallan who had the first cryptic to bond to a person since the recreance. Perhaps they wanted to see if pattern was alright and check if it was safe to bond with more people. After all if pattern has been bonded with shallan since childhood then that may be the very first instance of any spren-bond with a person since the recreance but we don't know for sure since we don't have any information on how long jasnah has been bonded with Ivory. This could show that the liespren are ambitious about trying to recreate their ranks of lightweavers so perhaps they'll be bonding more people very soon...

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I made this theory after re reading the first book, and I can see that I would've forgotten something about has jasnah or someone else saying they were cryptics and so forth, But gaz says that he sees something lurking in the darkness, not just darkness, so we can scrap the theory but as I said, itleast I shined a bit of light on elhokar and gaz. And I've just noticed that from szeth's perspective, we've never seen the cryptics, though his powers do come from a sword so I've only got 1 and a half hints for it.not a lot but as I said 3 hints are concrete in a lot of Sanderson's books, so again I'm not really getting a 100% chance that I'm right there. but I think I deleted this part of the theory where I dug myself into a hole about soulcasting and got away from the main  idea. In 

In dalnar's vision at fever stone keep, we see many radiants dropping their weapons and plate, but not any soulcasters. I thought this was because soul casters were just differently made when I first read it, but then I thought why would the equipment be able to be used by men with no Spren at all? Non radiants,? So I though about it and figured that soulcasters had to be made the same way, and that men bing able to use it was just  a failsafe from the almighty if the radiants fell. So why were no soulcasters dropped? I think it was because of the type of radiants. These were radiants returning from the front lines. So thusly they aren't oriented around soulcasting. Lightweavers and truth seekers  would have dropped them. So I think that only radiants who soulcast would have dropped them. This does stray from the main theory quite a bit, but I thought this does help it out in some aspects, though I have scrapped the theory already. Well I just read the chapter veristitalian and came across a quote that completely dances on my theory's grave :

(Jasnah speaking, talking about the Spren shallan draws.)"they are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.” She tapped the desk softly. “Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe.” I think it's sae to say my theory is wrong, but I was right about elhokar and gaz, elhokar even describes these creatures. I think we'll learn a lot about these Spren in the next book. 

Edited by Con578
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11 hours ago, Con578 said:

Lightweavers and truth seekers  would have dropped them. So I think that only radiants who soulcast would have dropped them.

Soulcasting radiants never used fabrials. The soulcaster Jasnah has is a decoy to disguise her ability to soulcast on her own. She was able to soulcast perfectly well even with the broken soulcaster that Shallan replaced it with. However, Jasnah did need the gems on the soulcasters - for some reason, soulcasting seems to require stormlight being held in the correct type of gemstone. Soulcasting fabrials are a form of surge-manipulating fabrial, one of the two we've seen. The other is the healing fabrial.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Light spine, sorry I mislead you there. I meant that they would be just materializing. Not actually on the radiant's fingers. I was just trying to give an option to how they were made. As in some of the radiants' Spren turned into soulcasters rather than swords

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1 hour ago, Con578 said:

Light spine, sorry I mislead you there. I meant that they would be just materializing. Not actually on the radiant's fingers. I was just trying to give an option to how they were made. As in some of the radiants' Spren turned into soulcasters rather than swords

The Spren were mimicking the Honorblades, so unless the Elsecaller and Lightweaver blades are shaped as Soulcasters, I doubt this is their origin. 

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7 minutes ago, Con578 said:

Oathbringer isn't out yet. Is there a link online?

It's from a transcript of a reading that Brandon did at a signing. 

All the compiled snippets we have so far are in this thread on the Oathbringer board. 

Edit: Oathbringer spoilers obviously. 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Calderis
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On 7/21/2017 at 2:39 AM, Con578 said:

Gaz: He sees them in the "darkness" (where he can't see due to the unfortunate lack of an eye) and this is mentioned a few times late after kaladin's arrival at the warcamps

                 

I always thought Gaz was somehow sensing Syl

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  • 2 weeks later...

Anna, If we take the possibility of gaz being a radiant out of it, we'd have to presume gaz was a horneater, or had extremely weak genes of one. Now it could be possible, however you have gaz as lanky, dark haired, and he doesn't seem to have any of the typical horneater idiosyncrasies. I mean there could be something else that can sense spren, I mean taravaniga's intelligence is quite interesting.

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On 8/18/2017 at 1:50 PM, Con578 said:

Anna, If we take the possibility of gaz being a radiant out of it, we'd have to presume gaz was a horneater, or had extremely weak genes of one. Now it could be possible, however you have gaz as lanky, dark haired, and he doesn't seem to have any of the typical horneater idiosyncrasies. I mean there could be something else that can sense spren, I mean taravaniga's intelligence is quite interesting.

The only instance I can find without re-reading Way of Kings is from the end of chapter 30: Gaz is talking to Kaladin and he senses something moving in the darkness, which is why I assumed it was Syl.  My guess is that losing his eye might have heightened his ability to sense things from the cognitive realm

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1 minute ago, anna said:

The only instance I can find without re-reading Way of Kings is from the end of chapter 30: Gaz is talking to Kaladin and he senses something moving in the darkness, which is why I assumed it was Syl.  My guess is that losing his eye might have heightened his ability to sense things from the cognitive realm

Yea, I doubt that he is of Horneater origin. If he was, then why did it take him this long to see Syl. As for his missing an eye leading to his seeing spren, I can't take that, at least not on it's own. There has to be a realmatic reason behind it. I'm not sure what it is about Horneaters, but something in their history gave them that, and there is a realmatic reason for it. Now, I'm not saying that he has to be a Radiant. That's just the simplest explanation. There could be others that we aren't aware. Actually, even if he isn't a Horneater (or of Horneater decent) the fact that Horneaters can see radiantspren implies that there is a way for a non-radiant to gain that ability, which can be handed down through genetics. So maybe (and this is a long stretch) Gaz got the ability to sense spren the same way the original horneaters did.

Or he isn't seeing spren at all, but something else we haven't seen.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Or he isn't seeing spren at all, but something else we haven't seen.

Or he's just never accepted the lost eye and it bothers him. 

I personally don't think Gaz is seeing anything outside of his own mind. 

Edited by Calderis
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15 minutes ago, john203 said:

I was 90% sure that the occasional horneater ability to see spren came from their listener blood, but I can't find anything to back that up.

Considering he confirmed their Parshendi blood in response to that question I think it's a safe assumption. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1084#9

Quote

QUESTION

Both Parshendi and Horneaters are able to see spren ordinary humans can't. Is there a connection between these abilities, or do they come from completely different sources?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Horneaters are human/Parshendi hybrids. (There are several Roshar races that have Parshendi blood in them.)

 

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7 hours ago, Calderis said:

Or he's just never accepted the lost eye and it bothers him. 

I personally don't think Gaz is seeing anything outside of his own mind. 

This recent WoB from @Darkness' beautiful Sydney effort is the most compelling I know to establish that

Quote

Darkness: Did any metal break off when Gaz lost his eye?

Brandon: Did any metal break off?

Darkness: Like… in him…

Brandon: Oh in him… you mean… no he doesn’t have a hemalurgic spike. Gaz is mostly what he seems to be.

It was specific to hemalurgy but the last sentence indicates that (and that's always been my head-canon).

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Calderis, I don't think it would be nothing. I mean why write it into the book? Why make gaz insane. I mean when we could look at mad men as being able to communicate with shards. Like with ruin and kelsier was able to communicate with mad men from the cognitive realm. That could be a reason, but personally I think the parshendi blood or he is a radiant.

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49 minutes ago, Con578 said:

Calderis, I don't think it would be nothing. I mean why write it into the book? Why make gaz insane. I mean when we could look at mad men as being able to communicate with shards. Like with ruin and kelsier was able to communicate with mad men from the cognitive realm. That could be a reason, but personally I think the parshendi blood or he is a radiant.

And I think it's the precursor to show he never accepted the loss of the eye, which means as Shallan's squire he may be able to regrow it (if he actually ends up as a squire). 

Beyond that, it was a view into the mindset of a, at the time, minor antagonist. His ticks made him more interesting. 

That's it. If gaz has enough Parshendi blood to see spren, there should be some physical sign. And if he's attracted a Nahel spren at that point of the story, the sniveling little wretch that he was... I'll be very disappointed. 

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