Shards. Heralds. Agreements. Roshar. Desolations. And a WoB mini-archive.

[+Extesian]

nb: Theorizing will follow, but the thing I hope will be useful is the list and summaries of several dozen WoBs and canon sources on the Rosharan system, the Oathpact, the Heralds, the Rosharan system Shards and planets, and the Desolations. Scroll to the end if you need them.

WHAT'S UP WITH ROSHAR?!?

Introduction

So I started this endless post to test the idea that the Heralds are from Braize, and I ended up looking at the Desolations, the Oathpact, the Heralds and Odium’s Braize habitation. I ended up with quite a collection of canon and WoB material on the Heralds, Braize, Odium, the Oathpact and the Desolations which are probably worth sharing. I want to say first of all, this has become far more, and far less than a theory. I think a lot of what I suggest is so tenuous that it's probably at best a collection of unusal ideas of the history of th eRosharan system and the realmatic aspects of the Oathpact and desolations. Not a theory.  It's pretty unpolished because, well, I've spent enough time on this! I actually thought about not posting anything, because I don't like wild speculation, but it would seem a waste to not do anything with the WoBs. 

So think of this as...a story. Rather than the expected expectations for Rosharan history, future and realms, it's my piece of fan worldbuilding that I've tried to keep realistic, against what we know. Not likely, but realistic.

An important thing to note here is I created the WoB catalog first, then wrote the theory. So if I've made any clear claims casually in the theory, they should be based on the WoBs I've summarised below. If not, call me out on it. But don't call me out on it until you've checked the WoBs

I am also spoilering every WoB for length reasons, and I am doing the same with some tangents in the theory. There are no Oathbringer spoilers here. But there are of course vast spoilers for Stormlight Archive. There actually aren't too many spoilers for the other books though, more the Cosmere in general.

So, here goes, with quite literally an explanation of my thought processes and structured as such.

What causes a Desolation

All I wanted to do was answer why the Heralds go to Braize to be tortured, and why a Desolation starts when they break?

So what causes a Desolation, I asked mysef? The Heralds (all 10) being ‘in existence’, presumably on Roshar or at least in the Physical Realm. Then who has abandoned Roshar? Who is so important that the time where 10 angelic beings of power come to help you out is regarded as the time of abandonment? God. Surely? But why and how?

So what causes a Desolation?  And at this stage, I’m only dealing with normal Desolations, not the Final Desolation, which is happening differently to the previous ones.

1)      All 10 Heralds being on Roshar? 9 were around for 4000 years and no Desolation. But previous Desolations happened so often that it seems likely they started as soon as one Herald ‘broke’. So I believe a Desolation is caused when no members of the Oathpact remain in Damnation (assuming that is where the Heralds go for their torture). I believe the Oathpact is realmatically powerful enough to enable just a single Herald in Damnation to hold back a Desolation.

2)      Even at the end of a Desolation, if the Heralds do not go back, if they remain too long, ‘another’ Desolation starts. Again, this must mean the Heralds who are still part of the Oathpact. So the Heralds have a time limit for being on Roshar.

3)      We have been told something else that could cause a Desolation (though it’s from the mouth of a mad Herald, via another mad Herald) – If humans discover the ‘greater power of the Oaths’ without Honor their to regulate the Oaths, there is a smallchance that what comes next would allow Voidbringers to again jump between worlds, causing a Desolation. Obviously Nale is wrong about the Desolation, it has in fact begun, but even through madness he must be realmatically aware for this theory to make sense.

So, whatever a Desolation truly is, we know it involves Voidbringers jumping between worlds, either before or concurrently. And we know it’s caused (traditionally) by any member of the Oathpact being on Roshar/no member of the Oathpact being in Damnation.

How do Voidbringers get to Roshar?

First thought would be that the Oathpact involves the Heralds staying on Braize to trap Odium there, that Taln has been maintaining Odium’s prison for 4000 years. But two problems with that – why would the breaking of just one Herald in the past change this when there are nine left to maintain the prison, and we know from WoB that Odium being trapped is ‘not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it’. But the Oathpact could be an all or nothing deal, and that WoB leaves room to move. But how does that actually let Voidbringers jump to Roshar?

One option is that when a Herald breaks and returns to Roshar from Braize, this creates some kind of realmic 'pathway' from Braize to Roshar, either for the Herald to be transported there or for the Herald/Honorblade to be powered with investiture, but through which Voidbringers can follow, probably in the cognitive realm.  But does it add up?

• If this pathway enables Voidbringers to come to Roshar, why would the Heralds not just all kill themselves immediately, shutting the pathway? Firstly, their Oaths I assume. But they broke their Oaths to break the cycle of Desolations, so I don’t think that can be it. I think once the pathway is opened by a Herald Returning, it stays open for a certain amount of time, before naturally closing unlessthe Heralds fail to go back to Braize in time – in which case the pathway forms again. Or it closes quite quickly but not before a whole army of voidbringers come. But then what makes it reopen if the Heralds stay too long?
• The Heralds that broke the Oathpact remained on Roshar, but this did not cause a Desolation to start again. This means that only members of the Oathpact are relevant, only someone still bound to the Oathpact being on Roshar can form this pathway. We’re assuming Taln has prevented this pathway from forming for 4000 years by holding strong, but that any time he finally broke (and I’m assuming this means his will was broken) he would have been sent to Roshar and the pathway would have formed.
• Does it fit with the idea that the greater power of the Oaths could lead to something that enables the Voidbringers to jump? Each Oath brings the spren more into the Physical Realm, and seems to give the surgebinder greater access to kinetic investiture. I think this is basically because the person and spren intertwine their spiritwebs more and more, which gives the surgebinder greater innate investiture, stronger Connection to Honor/Cultivation/Both. If Nale is right (and assuming I’m not missing steps in between – a big assumption) this indicates that either the increased Connection to the Shards, or the increased use of kinetic investiture (or both), creates a pathway, a means for the Voidbringers to jump. But how does the use of investiture on Roshar form such a pathway?I think it must be in the Cognitive Realm. Spren seem to be desperate for it there, I think that by having thousands of people bonded to spren, blurring the lines between the Realms, pulling in so much investitiure and giving it to the spren, it's dramatically weakening the walls between the Realms, and that's where the Odiumspren break through to Roshar. So, a pathway through the Cognitive Realm. But...why from Braize?

Possible Realmatics of a pathway from Braize to Roshar

So (deep breath), what is the common link between the Heralds (who are parties to the Oathpact with Honor, who are a type of Cognitive Shadow, who have a piece of Honor’s soul in the form of Honorblades) returning to Roshar, and Nahel-bonded surgebinders gaining greater and greater access to the investiture of Honor/Cultivation/both? I believe it’s a flow of investiture from Braize to Roshar to fuel the Heralds’ existence in the Physical Realm (much like a Nalthis Returned needs to consume investiture to keep their body stapled to their Cognitive Shadow), or more likely to fuel the surgebinding performed by surgebinders with the ‘greater power of the Oaths’ unregulated by Honor. I think Honor used to restrict the system to fewer Oaths than is possible, but later Oaths open up incredible access to investiture (and this is also the reason Ishar forced the original surgebinders to have organization thrust upon them and become orders of Radiant). Basically I see the later Oaths as spren enabling Radiants to become like Heralds, mimicking the system by which Honor made the Oathpact

But why, why would greater use of investiture in Roshar cause investiture to flow from Braize?If not from Braize, basically, why would open up the possibility of Voidbringers going from Braiaze to Roshar? Because (and you’ll all shout at me now, coz here’s where the theorizing becomes speculation), maybe, Honor is still invested in Braize. Not exclusively, but there is still a significant portion of the Shard's investiture there. We know there are Shards whose shardpools are not on a planet they currently inhabit. Vorin mythology involves the Voidbringers invading the Tranquiline Halls, kicking out God and men.

Is Braize the Tranquiline Halls, Damnation and Odium's Prison? What of the Oathpact?

I think Honor and Cultivation originally set up on Braize – that Braize is both the Tranquiline Halls and Damnation. When Odium invaded, I think they both bolted for Roshar but they left a trap first. They forced Odium to invest in Braize and then did something additional to prevent him from divesting. I don’t like the idea, because it feels derivative from Mistborn, but I think that Honor splintered off part of his investiture and left it on Braize to counteract Odium (similar to Preservation’s trap). Of course that wouldn’t be enough to trap Odium, the entire power of Preservation couldn’t do that, and Honor needed to be intact to setup a new world on Roshar.

So he coopted 10 people to shore up things, to reinforce the prison. He made the Oathpact with the Heralds. The condition for the Heralds was that they last as long as possible in Damnation, binding Odium there using the binding power of Honor’s investiture (using, perhaps, the Dawnshards?). Odium tortures them in an attempt to make them return to Roshar. When one does, perhaps the link between the Heralds and Honor’s investiture on Braize creates this pathway which, once open, allows Voidbringers through (at which point the other Heralds leave for Roshar immediately). The Heralds’ proving day then was to prove they could not be broken like an ordinary person. In exchange, Honor gave them immortality by infusing their spiritweb with investiture via the Honorblades, making them Cognitive Shadows – but they would automatically be rebirthed on Braize to keep their end of the bargain - to keep Odium contained while they can, to fight Voidbringers when they can't, until Braize can be retaken.

But when they return to Roshar, how is Odium kept imprisoned? Honor takes the place of the Heralds. Honor returns to Braize to keep Odium trapped, or pulls a lot of his investiture away to Braize. Either way, this is why it’s called a Desolation. Desolate is latin for ‘abandoned’. Since Honor leaves during this time, or at least withdraws enough of his investiture, Roshar has been abandoned or feels like it has been. And this is why there is a flow of investiture from Braize, because Honor actually moves there (yes I know Shards can’t move around easily but I’m assuming things are different within a solar system, for the same reason Odium can affect Roshar and Ashyn, even though he’s on Braize). But Roshar has an investiture cycle, an ecosystem that rapidly recycles investiture. So perhaps, when Honor is on Braize, the investiture cycle returns investiture to him on Braize. To keep Roshar operating properly (as it is so dependent on this system), and to enable the Heralds and surgebinders to do their thing, there needs to be enough investiture. Because all expended investiture is returned to Honor on Braize during this time, after a certain number of years, after a certain amount of investiture has been withdrawn from Roshar, Honor is forced to open up the pathway again, send investiture back to Roshar, unless he is relieved by the Heralds.

Cultivation? Part of the trap?

But what about Cultivation, you ask. What’s her role? Why does Hoid call her ‘Slammer’? Why does Brandon say that Odium has a full-intact, fully-alive, very powerful Shard opposing him? I think Cultivation has basically walled-off Roshar from Braize in the Cognitive Realm. Not completely, Odium can still affect it. But mostly. I think Cultivation is called Slammer not because she keeps Odium trapped on Braize, but because she keeps Odium out of Roshar – she’s built a prison that keeps the bad things out, rather than the bad things in. When a Herald breaks and goes back to Roshar, she must make a hole in that wall to allow the Heralds to return and to allow Honor to take their places. The Voidbringers force this open and follow, but before too long Cultivation seals the hole. The Desolation consists of humanity fighting the Voidbringers who managed to get through in time. If the Heralds then stay too long, because (theorizing) they’re like Returned and need investiture to stay in their bodies, and to fuel their surgebinding, this forces Honor to remain on Braize, feeding investiture to Roshar, and if it happens for long enough it weakens Honor enough that Odium can force out of his prison a bit and restart the pathway, despite Cultivation’s efforts. It’s basically a finely balanced system of keeping Odium trapped through a combination of Honor, the Heralds (wielding Honor’s bonding power) and Cultivation shielding the Cognitive Realm.

This is why the normal Desolations were time-limited. The Heralds together would bind Odium. One would crack from the torture, return to Roshar and break the cumulative bond, weakening the prison. The others return because it’s all or none. Honor takes their place to keep Odium trapped. He can’t do so entirely, but Cultivation shores up things from the Rosharan end. If the Heralds stay too long, too much investiture is drained, Honor must open up the pathway to send more back, and the Voidbringers again follow this – new Desolation.

Edit - I've decided to split this into three posts because it's super long! 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Extesian
Splitting into three posts

[+Extesian]

Part 2

Summary so far

So to summarise so far (noting the extraordinary number of assumptions/questionable evidence that leads to each step): H&C are on Braize with humans; Odium invades; H&C escape to Roshar with humanity but H leaves an investiture prison in place, while C walls off the Rosharan Cognitive Realm from Braize; H creates the Oathpact to have the Heralds use his power to keep Odium trapped; when a Herald breaks and returns to Roshar the Oathpact’s effects on Braize dissolve and H returns to Braize to take its place; Voidbringers use this chance to jump to Roshar before C seals the hole; Heralds and surgebinders use up so much investiture on Roshar (a closed system) that, if the Heralds don’t return to Braize in time, H must remain on Braize, open up the pathway again and send more investiture to Roshar and the loop starts again.

Tenuous, but let’s check against other things we know.

Spoiler

 

Ishar’s claim that the greater power of the Oaths would lead to a Desolation? Maybe. If the greater power of the oaths lead to huge kinetic investiture usage, that could drain Roshar’s investiture ecosystem and the Connection to Honor and Cultivation both drains the investiture from Odium’s prison and the investiture of Cultivation’s wall, requiring either Honor to dilute the prison by sending investiture to Roshar (Voidbringers follow) or simply degrade the whole trapping system emough that Odium can push through, sending Voidbringers.

The way the Final Desolation is actually going down (involving odiumspren-bonded Listeners calling the Everstorm)? Yeah I think it does. Honor by now is splintered so the only things keeping Odium confined to Braize are Cultivation’s wall, and stormin’ Taln and his eternal awesomeness. Taln finally breaks under the pressure of keeping the prison intact. Cultivation holds out but the prison is now weak enough that Odium can force a pathway the other direction, from Roshar to Braize.

Honor being splintered thousands of years after the Oathpact was broken, but at least hundreds of years before Taln broke? Yeeeah maybe. Perhaps Taln being by himself meant that Honor had to help him shore up the prison, weakening Honor, putting more of his investiture on Braize and enabling Odium to more easily attack him directly as his prison progressively weakened.

We know that the abandonment of the Oathpact is, at most, tangentially related to Odium’s ability to splinter Honor. Related, but not the reason it happened. Does this match? Well, yeah I’d say. It’s tangentially related because Taln had the entire burden of it on himself, and Honor had to divert some of this efforts there. But the Oathpact of course wasn’t abandoned completely, and either way there are several steps between.

We know that Odium being confined to the system (the WoB says Roshar, but I believe Brandon means the system) is not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it. Does that fit? Yeah. H&C confined Odium. The Oathpact was just designed to free up Honor a bit.

What about the delightful WoB that whether Hoid has visited Braize or not is the biggest RAFO? Yep.

What about Cognitive Shadows being tied to an area? Yeah I think so. It’s all the same system firstly. More than that, if Honor has kept investiture on Braize, even if much of it is on Roshar, that combined with the Oathpact would fit the Heralds being able to respawn in Braize.

Does it fit with what we know of the Heralds’ origin? It doesn’t clash. We know they’re not from Nalthis. We don’t know if they’re originally from Roshar. We do know they all come from the same place. If they were humans already living on Braize at the time of Odium’s invasion, that squares.

Does it fit with the Heralds having 'other advantages' than just the Honorblades? Sure, if the Heralds were originally inhabitants of Braize, with Honor and Cultivation invested there, they could have access to a different magic system, just as Ashyn has a different magic system.

Honor's  perpendicularity moves though right? So firstly it could just be that it moves from Roshar to Braize. But I think it's that there is one on Braize and one on Roshar, and they literally move around on each respective planet to face each other. I like that version of it.

 

Knights Radiant and the Recreance

Hold up. What about the elephant in the room? The Knights Radiant and the Recreance. And why does everyone hate on surgeebinders? Ishar wants them dead to avoid a Desolation. The Diagram talks about destroying them, but knows the Desolation is unavoidable. And they all broke their storming Oaths for some reason important enough (in their minds at least). By this theory, that's simply that the more investiture is drawn upon from Honor, the more is drawn from Braize, the more easily such a pathway opens up. And I think it may be imortant that the spren are being pulled more into the physical realm, blurring the lines between the Realms. Roshar already has weaker boundaries between the Realms than other planets, and I think the mass bonding of spren and pulling them big time into the Physical Realm weakens the Cultivation's wall, blocking off the Braize Cognitive Realm from teh Rosharan Cognitive Realm. The Knights Radiant found at that if they kept drawing upon that power, kept weakening the separation between the Realms, it would let Voidbringers jump en mass, and perhaps even release Odium's full potential. I don't want to believe the Recreance was selfish, about avoiding a fate as an actual shade fighting Odiumspren on Braize. For every Radiant, except those from one order, to break their bonds over that feels unlikely. I think it was for a selfless reason. This one may not be likely, but I prefer it!

What about Honor's splintering and the Final Desolation

The Final Desolation then is different to the others. Previous ones were a window of time when Voidbringers could cross, before the walls were put up again in the Cogntiive Realm. Odium had to try to win through total victory with limited troops and a lack of ability to bring his Shardic power to bear. Honor said that Odium is winning, letting Roshar weaken itself slowly. If any of that theorizing is correct, he had 4000 years to weaken Taln, requiring more of Honor's investiture (and perhaps even presence) to hold Odium in place, weakening both the prison and Honor, and perhaps Cultivation if enough investiture was being pulled from Braize as to make a pathway.

This continues for thousands of years until Honor is weak enough that Odium kills him and splinters the Shard. And of course Odium wouldn't stuff the Shard into the Cogntivie Realm, like on Sel, because that's how his spren get from Braize to Roshar. I suspect that wouldn't stop Honor's investiture in Braize continuing to do what it was doing (a la the mists) but the lack of mind controlling it would still make a difference, weaken the prison, weaken the lines between the Realms perhaps, perhaps force Cultivation to work harder. Until a millenium (big give or take) later, the whole system is weak enough for him to act more forcefully, doing things like (pure speculation here) Scouring Aimia, and unleashing the Unmade and controlling them carefully. Things get destabilized enough that the spren know the crem is about to hit the fan, and some start to make plans to renew the Nahel bonds.

Once the spren begin this, multiple people have been bonded and are starting to surgebind, pulling investiture from the splintered Honor Shard, Odium...breaks Taln. Which he could have probably done at any time in the last 1000 years, but he's a patient Shard. Taln returns, the prison breaks, the pathway is open, but it's still limited. But what else has Odium been doing? He's been corrupting the Listeners of course. So the pathway that was opened by Taln's return suddenly becomes a huge, permanent link between Braize and Roshar, when the Odiumspren, who can now make the jump and control the Listener's bodies unleash the Everstorm (which I won't speculate on the realmatics of).

And now Roshar needs to deal with all the Odiumspren coming, all of them, bonding with every Parshman, leaving a hole in the spiritweb for Odium to control.

Conclusion

I know, I can't believe it either. This post is concluding! I haven't dealt with the Dawnshards. I haven't dealt with Cultivation properly because I just don't know. I haven't dealt with a big one - Feather's idea of Odium intercepting Rosharan's Cogntiive aspect after they die and before they get to the Beyond. (When I started this, that was one of the big things I wanted to address. And I feel this rambling theory may even help support that idea, with it's connections between Braize and Roshar, weaknesses in the Realms, Rosharans being invested by Shards that were originally on Braize...But it's too much. 

I hope, if you read this, that you enjoyed this piece of alternative Rosharan Secret History fan-fic  I will be delighted if any of it turns out to be right, I'll be very happy if some is intriguing enough to spark some good conversations. On to the part of this post that  think will be far more useful, the collection of Wos I used

WoB list to follow

[+Extesian]

WoB Summary

The Heralds and the Oathpact

The Heralds 'go back' when they die, without choice, but are supposed to 'go back' voluntarily if they don't. Taln mentions fire.

Spoiler

Quote

“When he died, he was sent back, no choice. When he survived the Desolation, he was supposed to go back as well. Back to that place that he dreaded. Back to that place of fire. What if he decided…not to go?...(Taln) would be back now, in the place where they went between Desolations. The place of nightmares…Those fires, those hooks, digging into his flesh anew each day”

WoK - Prelude to the Stormlight Archive

Ishar provided the reason for breaking the Oathpact, that one Herald still being bound may be enough to end the cycle of desolations, and that it is justified because the Heralds chose the Oathpact willingly. Kalak believes Odium will find a way around this and avoid being bound by it.

Spoiler

Quote

“A decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end…Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations…” (Jezrien). “He will not remain bound by this. The enemy. He will find a way around it. You know he will.” (Kalak). “We chose this burden willingly. Well, we can choose to drop it if we wish.” (Jezrien)

WoK - Prelude to the Stormlight Archive

Taln remembers (and currently feels) heat and fire and torture. He speaks the same words without thinking them and refers to the words not being his. He also refers to the Gift. He also says that he thinks he's too late, this time.

Spoiler

Quote

”Of fires that burned and yet were gone. Of heat he could feel when others felt not. Of screams his own that nobody heard. Of torture sublime, for life it meant…The Gift and words. Not his. Never his. Now his.”I am Talanel’Elin, Herald of War.” Voice. He spoke it. He didn’t think it. The words came, like they always came. “I think…I think I am late…this time…” How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? How long had it been? Too long.

WoR interlude 7

Rosharan mythology has the Heralds coming down from the Tranquiline Halls

Spoiler

Quote

“But no, that was Dalinar. Like…one of the Heralds themselves, coming down from the Tranquiline Halls” (Adolin)

WoR ch 85

Rosharan mythology refers to the Heralds' Proving Day (presumably some sort of tests to determine who could become a Herald.

Spoiler

Quote

“Reasonable? Your demands are about as reasonable as the ones made of the Ten Heralds on Proving Day!” (Shallan)

WoK ch 5

Cognitive Shadows, because they exist through investiture, are generally tied to an 'area', which has happened to the Heralds, and to Odium, and Honor/Cultivaiton.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016

OdysseyCon 2016

BLIGHTSONG

Is it normal for people to become connected to an area after being there for a bit, like with Kel and wherever he was when he found the Ire, or is something special going on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It is normal for a cognitive shadow to get stuck to places, because they exist through investiture it is normal for them to get tied to an area. Kelsier was still in Scadrial when he found the Ire. This happened with Odium and the two shards on Roshar, Preservation to Ruin, and the Heralds (To Roshar? Braize?). (I think this is basically what happens with shards when they invest on a planet, so this same thing happens at smaller levels than shards.)

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1158

The Honorblades, which were pieces of Honor's soul, gave the Heralds direct access to his essence.

Spoiler

Quote

Boskone

Q: The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

A: Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades (pretty sure he means Honorblades here) were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Q: Like Vin and Elend?

A: Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Q: 1) In their place of torture, are the Heralds able to communicate with each other or with other people/spren outside of that place? E.g. how is Ishar able to maintain his threat of severing the Nahel bond if he is being tortured for hundreds of years? 2)When the Heralds return to Roshar, do they appear like Schwarzenegger in Terminator (nude) or do they appear with the clothing they wore when they signed up for the Oathpact? 3)Are the Honorblades involved in the torture of the Heralds? Again, thank you for taking the time to interact with us fans and readers.

 A: I have to RAFO questions along the lines of what you're asking. These are things that are relevant to books 6-10, which probably won't even be written for a decade. Talking about them too much now would be counter-productive, I feel. Sorry.

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/csfjn09/

A Desolation ending involves the departure of the Heralds.

Spoiler

Quote

Q: What ends a desolation? Is it mainly about winning the battles or is the fighting just about holding out and buying time for something else? 

 A: It involves the departure of the Heralds.

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cpdr1vl/

Heralds must consume Stormlight just as inefficiently as others when using Honorblades, but they have 'other advantages'.

Spoiler

Quote

Q: Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

 A: Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

 https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/ctq8abe/

The Heralds are reborn when killed. The Heralds are technically a variety of Cognitive Shadow; Cognitive Shadows are bits of sapient magic, endless and eternal, but which can have their personalities destroyed in certain ways.

Spoiler

Quote

Q: How the heck old is Kriss then? Will we ever get an answer as to why every worldhopper is flipin immortal?

 A: There is some time-dialation going on. I'll explain it eventually; we're almost to the point where I can start talking about that. Suffice it to say that there's a mix of both actual slowing of the aging process and relative time going on, depending on the individual. Very few are actually immortal.

 Q: Implying that some are actually immortal?

 A: Depends on which definition of immortal you mean.

Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.)

Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.)

Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.)

Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.)

Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The sleepless.)

Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)

Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.)

And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in.Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of cognitive shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/5dpic4/oathbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_5/dak70et/?context=3

At least some of the Oathpact is still functioning,. Honor's splintering was at best tangentially-related to the 'breaking' of the Oathpact (but if pinned Brandon would say it's not),

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Oct 14th, 2013

Steelheart Signing Report - Shardlet (Verbatim)

WETLANDER

Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

WETLANDER

Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, indeed.

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1078

A Desolation starts because the Heralds can no longer be in existence after a certain period of time. A new Desolation starts if they are there too long, and a Desolation will not end until they have left. But as long as one of them remains, a Desolation will not restart. The Oathpact is also not broken.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Mar 19th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - darkanimereal1 and luke (Verbatim)

QUESTION ()

What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end.

QUESTION

Oh. So they've got a time limit.

BRANDON SANDERSON

They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

QUESTION

So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080

The parties to the Oathpact were the Heralds, and Honor.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Mar 19th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - darkanimereal1 and luke (Verbatim)

QUESTION ()

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080

Taln is 'Rosharan' bu RAFO to whether he is native to Roshar - but all the Heralds are from the same place.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Sep 4th, 2014

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Verbatim)

QUESTION

I asked a question at the panel, I asked if the person you refuse to say who he is, I was trying to talk about Taln.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh!

QUESTION

Not Hoid.

BRANDON SANDERSON

So what about Taln?

QUESTION

Is there anything you'll tell us about him?

BRANDON SANDERSON

What do you want to know? Ask me a specific question.

QUESTION

Is he Rosharan?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Is he Rosharan? Taln is Rosharan.

QUESTION

[audio obscured]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Define Rosharan, how about that?

QUESTION

Native to Roshar.

BRANDON SANDERSON

That I have to RAFO.

QUESTION

Are the Heralds...

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds are from the same place that Taln is from.

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1094

The place that all the Heralds come from is not Nalthis.

Spoiler

Quote

 

INTERVIEW: Feb 17th, 2016

Calamity-Seattle

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds-- You’re wondering if the Heralds come from Nalthis?

QUESTION

Yeah.

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds do not come from Nalthis, but that is an excellent question.

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1152

The Heralds have spoken to Tanavast. The Heralds feel it is partially Tanavast's fault, what has been done to them.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Oct 1st, 2013

Steelheart Signing Report - Argent (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

None of the Heralds mention or address the Almighty in the opening scene of The Way of Kings; it's a little strange, considering they are his champions. Have they seen or spoken to the Almighty?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, the Heralds have spoken with the Almighty. They also feel that what has been done to them is partially his fault.

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1037

The Heralds cannot surgebind without Honorblades, but that doesn't mean there's nothing else they're capable of.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Mar 20th, 2014

WOR Signing Report - IronCaf (Paraphrased)

RYBAL

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and if not are they under the same restrictions that others are?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you're familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do.

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1048

 

The Desolations and the Final Desolation

The new (Final) Desolation is happening differently to all previous ones. In this Desolation the Everstorm causes the transformation of parshmen. It is implied that the previous ones had the parshmen transform before a storm came. Jasnah indicates there are records she is seeking, but that this means ancient writings can't be relied on, and indicates that the highspren told her something about this.

Spoiler

Quote

“The storm has come already? The parshmen have transformed?”. “Yes and no,” Wit said. “The storm should hit Shinovar tonight, then work its way across the land. I believe that the storm will bring the transformation.” Jasnah stopped in place. “That’s not how it happened in the past. I have learned things on the other side.” “You are correct. It is different this time”…”If it’s not happening as it did before, then everything I know could be false. The words of the highspren could be inaccurate. The records I seek could be meaningless.” He nodded. “We can’t depend upon the ancient writings,” she said.

WoR Epilogue

Honor leaves Dalinar with a vision, of Honor's fear of the True Desolation, which shows the literal destruction of Roshar, the rock disintegrating into dust. Honor believes Odium's tactic is to let Roshar get weak by in-fighting, and that Roshar is losing. Honor raises the possibility of a Champion, noting Odium (and all Shards) are bound by some rules. Honor expresses dismay that the Dawnshards are not available/there/an option.

Spoiler

Quote

That wasn’t the Kholinar of the distant past; he could see the rubble of his own palace. But there was no rock formation like the one he stood on near Kholinar in the real world…“This is what could happen…it’s what I fear will happen. It’s what he wants. The True Desolation…Most of what I show you are scenes I have seen directly…but some, such as this one, are born out of my fears”. The very rocks ahead were shattering, breaking apart, becoming dust…the land was gone. Kholinar was gone...“He’s realized that you, given time, will become your own enemies. That he doesn’t need to fight you. Not if he can make you forget, make you turn against one another. Your legends say that you won. But the truth is that we lost. And we are losing…You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And…without the Dawnshards…Well I have done what I can…Odium has killed me” – Tanavast in the vision

WoK ch 75

Ishar convinced Nale that renewal of Nahel Bonds will let men discover 'the greater power of the Oaths. Honor is no longer there to regulate the Oaths. There is a small chance that what comes next would allow Voidbringers to again jump between worlds, causing a Desolation and the end of the world.

Spoiler

Quote

“But…” said the male initiate. “Is it really…I mean, shouldn’t we want them to return, so we won’t be the only order of Knights Radiant?” “Unfortunately, no,” Darkness said. “I once thought as you, but Ishar made the truth clear to me. If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the Oaths. Without Honor to Regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation, and even a small chance that the world will be destroyed is a risk that we cannot take”.

Edgedancer ch 9

Melishi, a Bondsmith, defeated the Voidbringers (presumably, changing them into Parshmen) with something related to the unique attributes of his Order, related to the 'very nature of the Heralds and their Divine duties.

Spoiler

Quote

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbrigners upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address” – From Words of Radiance, Chapter 30, page 18

WoR ch 58

 

The Rosharan System's Shards and Planets

About "half-ish" of the Shards have been 'killed'.

Spoiler

Quote

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 26th, 2016

Bands of Mourning Release Party

LITTLE WILSON

How many Shards are whole at the time of Shadows of Self?

BRANDON SANDERSON

RAFO. Ish. (He's too tired to do math, but he says it's about half-ish).

LITTLE WILSON

You mentioned that "half-ish" of the existing Shards are whole at the time of Shadows of Self. Is that counting splinters?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Splintered is one of the ways they are not considered whole. (He's thinking about Dominion and Devotion and says that's the opposite of whole)

LITTLE WILSON

I was thinking about shattered versus splintered, and going with shattered with Devotion and Dominion. And then splintered would be Honor separating a piece of himself to create the spren (pre-Shattering).

BRANDON SANDERSON

On Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. Things on the spiritual realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other. All those spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Yes, they're splinters of Honor, but they're still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world. There's no diminishing that. So we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole.

LITTLE WILSON

Are there any Shards we don't know of that are Shattered?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. (Zas' sister says "Four....ish...right?") Eh....Honor is gone. Devotion and Dominion are gone. There are others. The question is is Cultivation gone or not? I haven't answered that for you. There are others. So this is why I'm not going to give you answers on this.

 

Source

 

Cultivation is alive, was close enough when Honor was splintered to know how to fight back, learned from the experiences of others.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Dec 6th, 2016

Herald Washington Library Center-AU Tour (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Did Ambition fight back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

And...Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got [Splintered] Honor, to know how to fight back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Heheheheh. I would say yes.

QUESTION

And Cultivation, is she--

BRANDON SANDERSON

She is still there. Alive and kicking.

QUESTION

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, maybe. She has learned from the experiences of others.

Source

 

Odium went after Ambition first, couldn't find him/her, killed Devotion and Dominion instead, then found Ambition - then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Dec 6th, 2016

Herald Washington Library Center-AU Tour (Paraphrased)

ARGENT

I want to take us back to some Shards before we skip me for the fourth time. So there were a few of the Shards that RayseSplintered, included Ambition, Dominion, and Devotion.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

ARGENT

And those were all way back in history. So, we know that the Shard’s personality overrides the Vessel’s personality over time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Strongly influence, and depending on the Vessel, override.

ARGENT

So, did Rayse choose those Shards because--

BRANDON SANDERSON

He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

ARGENT

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person.

BRANDON SANDERSON

In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But, he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

ARGENT

Which is segue to Shards Investing in Shardworlds. So is it kind of a...passive...the more a Shard stays on a world, the Investiture kind of seeps…

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, it does. Once you’ve got a Perpendicularity, you are starting...That’s trouble for going other places. But you’ve gotta remember, going other places means multiple things to someone actually holding a Shard. They can exist in the Spiritual Realm, where all things are one. And they can even kind of comprehend it.

 

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1182

Odium being trapped in 'Roshar' is not a direct result of the Oathpact. But the Oathpact is a part of it.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 2015

Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

QUESTION

Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

HTTP://THEORYLAND.COM/INTVMAIN.PHP?I=1160

Rosharan mythology is that mankind lived in heaven until Voidbringers captured it and cast out God and men.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Aug 29th, 2011

Literatopia Interview (Verbatim)

LITERATOPIA

In April The Way of the Kings will be published in German. What's in store for the reader? What kind of topics do you deal with in the novel, what's your focus?

BRANDON SANDERSON

One very common story in fantasy, ever since Tolkien, is how the magic is going away. In the Stormlight Archive I wanted to write a story about the magic coming back. According to the mythology of the world, mankind used to live in heaven until a group of evil spirits known as the Voidbringers assaulted and captured it, casting out God and men. Men took root on Roshar, a world of storms, but the Voidbringers chased them there, trying to push them off of Roshar and into Damnation. To help men cope, the Almighty gave them powerful suits of armor and mystical weapons known as Shardblades. Led by ten angelic Heralds and ten orders of knights known as Radiants, men resisted the Voidbringers ten thousand times, finally winning and finding peace. Or so the legends say. Today, the only remnants of those supposed battles are the Shardblades, the possession of which makes a man nearly invincible on the battlefield. The entire world, essentially, is at war with itself—and has been for centuries since the Radiants turned against mankind. Kings strive to win more Shardblades, each secretly wishing to be the one who will finally unite all of mankind under a single throne.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=620

Actual knowledge of the other planets in the Rosharan system influenced Rosharan mythology.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Oct 14th, 2013

Steelheart Signing Report - Shardlet (Verbatim)

QUESTION

So there are two other planets in the Roshar system, are they the Tranquiline Halls and Damnation that you mentioned in The Way of Kings?

BRANDON SANDERSON

(After consideration) There has been in the past knowledge of other planets in the system and that has indeed influenced the mythology of the world.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1078

The Cosmere's religious versions of heaven are different to the actual afterlife, and the Tranquiline Halls are different again.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Aug 9th, 2014

When Worlds Collide 2014 - Khyrindor (Paraphrased)

KHYRINDOR

Shards can talk to dead people. Are the Tranquiline Halls where everyone in the cosmere goes when they die? Or does each world have its own heaven.

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

There is an afterlife that is not heaven that the Shards don't know about, or can't look into. Each world has its own heaven depending on its religions. The real afterlife is different across the cosmere, and the Tranquiline Halls are different.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1082

Odium can influence all three inhabited planets in the Rosharan system.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Dec 6th, 2014

Orem Signing Report - Zas678 (Paraphrased)

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Odium is able to influence all 3 important planets in the Rosharan system, Roshar, Braize, and Ashyn.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1097

The other planets in the Rosharan system have a great deal of influence on Roshar.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Sep 4th, 2014

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Verbatim)

QUESTION

How much involvement does the other planet in the same system as Roshar have with Roshar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

*long pause* Your question has a fundamental flaw to it.

QUESTION

And that is?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That there are multiple planets that have an influence on Roshar.

QUESTION

I thought there were multiple planets in the system that--

BRANDON SANDERSON

There are, but you said "the other", there are more than one so the phrase, "the other" doesn't make sense.

QUESTION

How much influence do the other planets have?

BRANDON SANDERSON

A great deal.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1094

Biggest RAFO whether Hoid has been to Braize.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Mar 13th, 2014

WOR-Omaha, NE

SIR JERRIC

Has Hoid ever visited the planet Braize?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[Sing-song, delighted] RAFO. Such a big RAFO! The biggest RAFO!

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1108

Damnation exists on all three realms.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Nov 29th, 2016

Old Firehouse Books-AU tour (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Does Damnation exist in all three Realms?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, all three.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178

RAFO on whether Cognitive Shadows on Braize are KR shades.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Dec 3rd, 2016

Little City Books-AU Tour (Paraphrased)

PAGERUNNER

Are the Cognitive Shadows on Braize the mythical Shades of the Knights Radiant?

BRANDON SANDERSON

RAFO Card

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1181

Only Odiumspren are welcome on Braize. Odiumspren are different to anything we've seen so far.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Nov 29th, 2016

Old Firehouse Books-AU tour (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

Are odiumspren the only spren who live on Braize?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Only odiumspren are welcome on Braize, but they're different from anything we've seen so far.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178

RAFO on whether the smoky place in Dalinar's vision, with dark sky and an endless jagged and rough field of dull, bone-white rock, is Damnation/Braize.

Spoiler

Quote

INTERVIEW: Oct 22nd, 2016

La Dimension Fantastique

QUESTION

At the end of tWoK, in the last Dalinar's vision, he stands "in a place of smoke. He turned about, wary. The sky was dark and he stood on a field of dull, bone-white rock, jagged and rough, extending in all directions. Off into eternity". Is this place Damnation/Braize ?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That will be explained in Oathbringer. So RAFO.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1177

At least one Shard has a shardpool that is not on the planet which it currently inhabits.

Spoiler

Quote

Q: Could You tell me something about Cosmere, that we don't know?
A: Oooh boy, that is so hard, people ask this all the time and I get running out of things, hmm... There are shards whose shardpools are not on a planet they currently inhabit. At least one.

 

Cultivation is a fully-living, fully-aware and very powerful Shard.

Spoiler

Quote

Q: Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it?

A: Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course. Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.) So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used.

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/ctqh2mg/

[Calderis]

I... Have lots to say and no words to say it with. 

I'll consider and try to make sense of my thoughts. 

Edit: it's all so intertwined that I don't really know how to separate the parts that I agree with from the parts I don't. 

Edit2: OK @Extesian, with a little more than half, my biggest issues being the nature of Cultivation's prison. There's just so much. You weren't kidding. This post is a monster. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Calderis

[+Extesian]

Tell me about it bruh. That’s why I was reluctant to even post it, it’s all so intertwined and each part hinges on the initial suppositions being correct, which I seriously doubt they are. It’s also why I’m half expecting no replies on it, where do you even start?

Yeah my biggest doubt was Cultivation’s role in all this. I started with the idea that Cultivation is imprisoning Odium directly, but it didn’t make sense with the Heralds existence starting a Desolation. I tried working in that Braize was originally inhabited by a different Shard, that Odium splintered, and that the Heralds are actually of that Shard. I tried working in Endowment, due to Taln referring to ‘The Gift’. I tried all sorts of combinations, but they just didn’t work with the WoBs I found. But Cultivation is still the biggest mystery to me, and that Cognitive Realm wall is a desperate attempt to find some role for her in all this.

That’s why I feel a bit strange about this “””theory”””, it’s a lowest common denominator version of Rosharan system history, but that also is trying to come up with a non-obvious version – which makes it hard to fit in with the WoBs.

In the end, if it even raises any ideas or discussions that do have more grounding in evidence, I’ll be happy. I honestly think that, at best, 5% is true, and that the main ideas are most certainly not true. I don’t like writing theories that I don’t believe in, it makes me feel itchy inside. So feel very free to pick apart.

I do hope the WoBs come in handy though. I know I’ll be using them any time there’s questions on Rosharan planets, Shards, the Heralds, Desolations and Oathpact. And maybe someone else will be able to use them to come up with a better theory!

[Jonathon]

This is only tangentially related to your theory, but reading your theory made me realize this:

If it is called a desolation because honor is abandoning them, then the heralds didn't lie at all when they said that the previous one was the last desolation. That's because that was the last one before honor was shattered so it's the last time he could abandon them. 

So if this current desolation does not involve the abandonment of honor and the way it is happening is different, then is this desolation the true desolation? Perhaps the "abandonment" that is happening is odium finally abandoning his imprisonment on Braize by the end of this desolation due to honor being splintered and Taln having broken so no one is regulating the prison. 

Hypothetically, if this led to a battle between Odium and Cultivation then I think based on your WOB above that cultivation knows how to fight back, she would win and kill rayse. However we also have another WOB which I don't know how to find about how the shard odium survives to the second arc but the vessel might not. So someone else will then pick up the odium shard. The question is: Who?

[Fatling]

So the most tenuous parts to me are about what's going on with the heralds when they go off to be tortured. I mean, it makes sense on a lot of levels and I haven't really thought about it much, but I've always assumed that the heralds being tortured was actually a messed up way to break the heralds again and again and thereby increase their power ("breaking" or "snapping" due to some trauma, and then suddenly gaining powers is obviously a common theme in the Cosmere). As to who would be doing such a thing, I have no idea (as I said, not very well thought out, just kind of the explanation I had always gone with). It also rings a little bit off for Brandon to cast Odium as "bad guy torturing heroes" just because he tends to write less traditional villains or at least qualifies the things they do to some degree. If Odium was trying to get the heralds to leave, it seems weird to me that he woulf have power to torture them but wouldn't have power to expel them.

On the other hand, this is actually a great explanation of what's going on with Damnation, and I really like it because of that. I also like the thoughts on Honor and Cultivation and what's going on with them, most of that makes a lot of sense to me. And even if none of the theory turns out to be true, good job on compiling all those WoB and quotes

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

@Extesian

Good Job. I'm going to hold off judgement on this monster till after I have read Oathbringer. I feel like enough of the RAFOs are because OB is going to answer it that this theory will be much more polished after you've read it. Other than that, amazing job. The part about the heralds keeping Odium contained was a little confusing, and I'm not sure, but I think you've hit on a couple key points. And I think that your list of WoBs is going to be extremely useful. Hopefully you are planning on keeping it up to date too.

[ccstat]

@Extesian Great work putting this together!

Gathering and organizing all the supporting info is a big project. I also appreciate your approach of creating an alternative theory to spur discussion, even if you aren't convinced of it yourself. It does hang together quite well, even if there are parts I don't agree with.

I am totally on board with Braize being both the Tranquiline Halls and Damnation. I had entertained that idea before, but didn't find it convincing until you laid everything out here. (Among other things, the Literatopia interview you cite is a big supporting clue.) You also make a good case for Honor and Cultivation starting on Braize rather than Roshar; I'm not convinced yet that it was both, though. Maybe they settled next door to each other, then Tanavast moved in with her after his home was invaded? I'm not sure. (Wild speculation: If he did move planets after C was already established on Roshar, could that be part of why his perpendicularity is mobile?)

The two pieces of your history that don't sit well with me are Cultivation's cognitive wall and the role of the Oathpact. The wall idea, as you've presented it, makes at least as much sense as anything I've come up with, and it does an excellent job of incorporating the few data points we have. But it doesn't feel quite right to me, and as you've said, we really don't know enough yet to make sense of what's happening.

For the Oathpact, I'll reproduce and comment on several of your WoB:

Quote

A: Yes, the Heralds have spoken with the Almighty. They also feel that what has been done to them is partially his fault.(source)

This WoB in particular is one that I hadn't seen before. That the Heralds "partially" blame Tanavast for their situation implies to me that "what has been done to them" (the torture, etc.) is not what any of them expected to happen. Combine that idea with these statements:

Quote

Q: How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

A: The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

(source)

Quote

QUESTION: Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

BRANDON SANDERSON: Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it. 

(source)

To me, the conclusion has to be that the Oathpact was never about trapping Rayse or blocking him from getting to Roshar.

I propose that the Oathpact was initiated on Braize when Odium first invaded. It gave the heralds weapons and powers (via Honorblades) and immortality (via the respawning cognitive shadow mechanism), so that they could help in that fight. (Tangentially, I will note that I suspect the Honorblades are also responsible for their immortality, serving as the anchor for their cognitive shadows.) Unfortunately, when Odium chased everyone out and they fled to Roshar, the Herald's respawn point didn't get moved. Honor did Something Else to keep Odium contained on Braize, but some unintentional interaction between that and the Oathpact resulted in the situation we have now, where the Heralds aren't able to travel to Roshar without triggering a desolation.

I'll need to think some more about how all the clues fit together, and especially about how the earlier desolations were different from what's happening now. Your WoB compilation will be super helpful! Hopefully I'll be able to come up with some sort of prediction before Oathbringer hits.

(I do have to say, though, that this RAFO about all the Herald questions being reserved for the back five books is a bit disheartening. I'm sure there are tons of things we'll learn sooner, but this whole Oathpact/Desolation connection may not be one of them.)

On 7/20/2017 at 7:20 AM, Extesian said:

 A: I have to RAFO questions along the lines of what you're asking. These are things that are relevant to books 6-10, which probably won't even be written for a decade. (source)

Edited July 28, 2017 by ccstat

[Calderis]

First, thank you for posting on this, because the mountain that was the original thread was just too much for me to scale. Properly address. 

17 minutes ago, ccstat said:

I propose that the Oathpact was initiated on Braize when Odium first invaded.

I'd never considered this possibility, but I think you're right. Look at this wording from tWoK. 

Ch. 61. “Right for Wrong"

Quote

“The story mentions the Desolations at the beginning,” Navani said. “Giving them credit for having wiped out Parasaphi’s people.”

“But what were they?”

“Wars.” Navani took a sip of wine. “The Voidbringers came again and again, trying to force mankind off Roshar and into Damnation. Just as they once forced mankind—and the Heralds—out of the Tranquiline Halls.”

This implies that the Heralds had made their pact with Honor before coming to Roshar. 

20 minutes ago, ccstat said:

(Tangentially, I will note that I suspect the Honorblades are also responsible for their immortality, serving as the anchor for their cognitive shadows.) 

If they do act as an anchor, I only think it's for the physical bodies they inhabit. The repeated use and access to direct investiture from Honor should have sufficiently expanded their souls to the point that, at least in the Cognitive Realm, they shouldn't need any kind of Anchor to hang around. 

[ccstat]

Good quote from WoK. I didn't remember that one.

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If they do act as an anchor, I only think it's for the physical bodies they inhabit. The repeated use and access to direct investiture from Honor should have sufficiently expanded their souls to the point that, at least in the Cognitive Realm, they shouldn't need any kind of Anchor to hang around. 

Yes, that's what I mean. My speculation is that the Honorblade is what physically appears on Roshar, manifesting near an appropriate host. When they grab the sword, the Herald's personality is "downloaded" into them. There's no real support for this idea over others that have been proposed, but it makes sense to me.

[Riceloft]

So many words.  I will say, re-reading some of those excerpts and WoBs I now believe that Stormlight ends with the destruction of Roshar.  I'm sure this has been theorized before, of course.

[J. Grimm]

Just wanted to say thanks for,compiling all of this! I'll chime in later on with some thoughts/additional speculations.

[+Extesian]

@ccstat thanks for the detailed response! I will get back to this, it's been a busy week (and detailed responses to my own theories deserve a proper response from me).