Kaladin is more honourable than Dalinar?

[discorat]

So I was reading the Tor analysis (X) for the way of kings as I've finally managed to make two of my friends buy and read the books with me in a reread (for them it would be the first time). In the commentary the author writes that Kaladin is more honourable than Dalinar, while I've always felt that it was the other way around. Dalinar constantly tries to do the right thing and not jump to conclusions- While Kaladin is very often (in my opinion) driven by his emotions (even though he got over that in WOR after he decided to not kill Elhokar). Im just wondering how Kaladin can be more honourable than Dalinar (other than the fact that he has an honourspren and is supposed to be honourable - i just feel like Kaladins non honourable actions weigh more than Dalinars)

[Toaster Retribution]

I defenitely agree. Dalinar is probably the most honorable guy around. He has a code, and he follows it, no matter what. Kaladin is more prone to being controlled by emotions. He is a hypocrite sometimes, tbh. 

That said, Gavilar era Dalinar was probably not very honorable. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[The One Who Connects]

I'm pretty sure it's only because Kaladin has started a Spren bond already. He's further down the path than Dalinar is at that time, so logically, he is "closer to Honor." It's not really accurate to their actions, but one scale does not necessarily equate to another.

[king of nowhere]

yeah. kaladin has lapses, especially when it comes to his prejudices against lighteyes, while I've never seen dalinar do something bad in the books. he has a superhuman honesty

[galendo]

Personally, I'd weight them about the same.  Both of them generally mean to do the right thing.  Both of them sometimes wonder what the right thing actually is.  Both of them make mistakes.

The only thing that's really certain is that they're both far more honorable than anyone else.  IMHO, no one else even comes close.  (I suppose you could make an argument for Lift.)

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

The article doesn't say that Kaladin is more honorable than Dalinar. It actually says that Dalinar is "not more honorable":

Quote

He’s not more honorable than Kaladin is, but he is in a position where he is constantly tested, tempted to take the less honorable but politically expeditious route, and his choice not to has meaningful political consequences

That just means that he's not more honorable than Kaladin, but it also doesn't mean they were trying to say he's less honorable either. 

[Toaster Retribution]

16 hours ago, galendo said:

The only thing that's really certain is that they're both far more honorable than anyone else.  IMHO, no one else even comes close.  (I suppose you could make an argument for Lift.)

Adolin is up there as well.

[Andy92]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Adolin is up there as well.

That depends on whether or not you view vigilante justice as honorable or not. 

[Toaster Retribution]

4 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

That depends on whether or not you view vigilante justice as honorable or not. 

Considering that Adolins vigilante justice was a snap decision in a very heated moment, I wouldn't hold it against Adolins honor. That is not something that he would normally have done.

[Andy92]

7 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Considering that Adolins vigilante justice was a snap decision in a very heated moment, I wouldn't hold it against Adolins honor. That is not something that he would normally have done.

I think how you act on instinct reveals a lot about a person. 

I get it though, I don't think he's a terrible person necessarily. I just don't think he's as honorable as his father after that scene. 

[Toaster Retribution]

53 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I think how you act on instinct reveals a lot about a person. 

I get it though, I don't think he's a terrible person necessarily. I just don't think he's as honorable as his father after that scene. 

Considering that he was very stressed, confused, tired, wounded and scared, I wouldn't hold it against him at all. He had withstood the instinct to kill Sadeas the entire book. There are a lot of times during WoR when he is tempted to kill Sadeas, but decides not to act upon that instinct. 

He also places himself in prison for Kaladins sake, saves random prostitues and follows the Codes out of love for his father, despite not wanting too. I would say that Adolin this far has been more honorable than Kaladin. I would rank them:

1. Dalinar

2. Adolin

3. Kaladin

Of course, we can agree to disagree on this.

[maxal]

5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Considering that he was very stressed, confused, tired, wounded and scared, I wouldn't hold it against him at all. He had withstood the instinct to kill Sadeas the entire book. There are a lot of times during WoR when he is tempted to kill Sadeas, but decides not to act upon that instinct. 

He also places himself in prison for Kaladins sake, saves random prostitues and follows the Codes out of love for his father, despite not wanting too. I would say that Adolin this far has been more honorable than Kaladin. I would rank them:

1. Dalinar

2. Adolin

3. Kaladin

Of course, we can agree to disagree on this.

Is Adolin more honorable than Kaladin and Dalinar? I love Adolin, I am a die-hard fan of his, but I don't think he is as honorable as they, not considering how the book has defined honorable so far. Currently, it has been used to qualify individuals whom would stay true to their words. Kaladin, despite his momentary lapses, has stayed true to his words. Dalinar is known to keep his words: if he says he will do it, he does it. He said he would obey to his code no matter what and he is doing, accepting no compromises. As far as I am concerned, Dalinar's sense of honor is very hard to be beat.

Adolin? Yes, he is honorable. Yes, he will keep his words up until his sense of morality and his natural empathy tells him keeping his word is harming people. He will not break it to personally advanced himself, but he will break it to protect other people. 

Saving the prostitute? He was to meet a brightlord, he had an engagement, he gave his words he would see through this engagement, but he drops it in order to protect a poor girl being bullied. Was it moral? Yes. Was it right? Yes. Was it honorable? Yes and no.

Staying in prison for Kaladin? He broke a king's decree. Dalinar would not go against Elhokar. He did not agree with the punishment, he said he would do his best to mellow Elhokar, but he would not disobey the king. Adolin has no such quarrel: he did disobey. He did it for Kaladin's shake, he did it because he felt it was the right thing to do, but was it the honorable thing to do? Which word did he keep? Which word did he break?

Killing Sadeas? Well.. That was not honorable. Of course, the kid has been tossed around, bruised, shaken and injured. He was dropped into a foreign city and his world is crumbling all around him. He is scared. He is confused and he probably is physically and mentally exhausted. It sure played a role into his snapping, but in the end Adolin did the moral thing, the emphatic thing, not the honorable thing.

Hence, I wouldn't say Adolin is more honorable than either Kaladin and Dalinar. Mind, it does not make him a bad person, it just makes someone who's perhaps a better judge at when words need to be broken in order to protect the weak.

Edited July 20, 2017 by maxal

[Calderis]

Until Adolin defines his own personal code, we can't really quantify things. He has tried to adhere to his father's code and had lapses due to things that he could not abide. Once he's found his own code, I think he'll be pretty high up on the list. 

As far as "Honorable" is, by the definition shown so far, the most Honorable character is easily Szeth. He will stand by his chosen code of conduct to the detriment of all else. Himself included. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Calderis

[maxal]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Until Adolin defines his own personal code, we can't really quantify things. He has tried to adhere to his father's code and had lapses due to things that he could not abide. Once he's found his own code, I think he'll be pretty high up on the list. 

As far as "Honorable" is, by the definition shown so far, the most Honorable character is easily Szeth. He will stand by his chosen code of conduct to the detriment of all else. Himself included. 

Fair point. I do agree. Adolin can't be honorable if he doesn't have a personal code to follow. We know his father's code does not work out for him because it created injustices. We know the law does not work because it can be twisted to protect the guilty. Is there a code he could follow?

I agree about Szeth. This is a good point you make: being honorable does not mean being good.

[Toaster Retribution]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

Is Adolin more honorable than Kaladin and Dalinar? I love Adolin, I am a die-hard fan of his, but I don't think he is as honorable as they, not considering how the book has defined honorable so far. Currently, it has been used to qualify individuals whom would stay true to their words. Kaladin, despite his momentary lapses, has stayed true to his words. Dalinar is known to keep his words: if he says he will do it, he does it. He said he would obey to his code no matter what and he is doing, accepting no compromises. As far as I am concerned, Dalinar's sense of honor is very hard to be beat.

Adolin? Yes, he is honorable. Yes, he will keep his words up until his sense of morality and his natural empathy tells him keeping his word is harming people. He will not break it to personally advanced himself, but he will break it to protect other people. 

Saving the prostitute? He was to meet a brightlord, he had an engagement, he gave his words he would see through this engagement, but he drops it in order to protect a poor girl being bullied. Was it moral? Yes. Was it right? Yes. Was it honorable? Yes and no.

Staying in prison for Kaladin? He broke a king's decree. Dalinar would not go against Elhokar. He did not agree with the punishment, he said he would do his best to mellow Elhokar, but he would not disobey the king. Adolin has no such quarrel: he did disobey. He did it for Kaladin's shake, he did it because he felt it was the right thing to do, but was it the honorable thing to do? Which word did he keep? Which word did he break?

Killing Sadeas? Well.. That was not honorable. Of course, the kid has been tossed around, bruised, shaken and injured. He was dropped into a foreign city and his world is crumbling all around him. He is scared. He is confused and he probably is physically and mentally exhausted. It sure played a role into his snapping, but in the end Adolin did the moral thing, the emphatic thing, not the honorable thing.

Hence, I wouldn't say Adolin is more honorable than either Kaladin and Dalinar. Mind, it does not make him a bad person, it just makes someone who's perhaps a better judge at when words need to be broken in order to protect the weak.

I think that it has to do with how honorable is defined. I definitely think that some people would define doing what you think is right as honorable. After all, that is the following of your own personal codes, and Adolin never breaks his as far as I recall (except arguably with Sadeas).

Kaladin does. He does something that he deep inside knows is wrong. The oath he breaks is much worse than Adolins. He is basically a racist toward lighteyes. He wants Darkeyes to be treated better, but he doesn't really have issues with mistreating Lighteyes. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[the winter system]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think that it has to do with how honorable is defined. I definitely think that some people would define doing what you think is right as honorable. After all, that is the following of your own personal codes, and Adolin never breaks his as far as I recall (except arguably with Sadeas).

Kaladin does. He does something that he deep inside knows is wrong. The oath he breaks is much worse than Adolins. He is basically a racist toward lighteyes. He wants Darkeyes to be treated better, but he doesn't really have issues with mistreating Lighteyes. 

Kaladin isn't racist, he's biased. He doesn't have the power to oppress lighteyes, and he knows it.

I honestly would put Lift as #1 in the most honorable. But that's probably because we share an order. She's a thief, but she doesn't steal to hurt. She steals because she needs to eat. She risked her life to help someone she barely knew. No spoilers for Edgedancer, but I'd rate her actions there as the most honorable. Dalinar has killed so many people. Kaladin too, if not as many. Lift is a healer. She's brought someone back from the dead. To me? That's honorable. The most honorable thing one can do, even. Kaladin, if he'd found a way to save Tien and became a surgeon? He'd be honorable. Or, if he'd gone to the army, but joined with the surgeons instead. His training would've made him eligible, yet he stayed with the soldiers because "he had to." Honor is about saving lives to me. You can't protect by killing.

[Toaster Retribution]

30 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

Kaladin isn't racist, he's biased. He doesn't have the power to oppress lighteyes, and he knows it.

Fair enough. He does have prejudices (I think that's the word) against them though. 

32 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

Kaladin, if he'd found a way to save Tien and became a surgeon? He'd be honorable. Or, if he'd gone to the army, but joined with the surgeons instead. His training would've made him eligible, yet he stayed with the soldiers because "he had to." Honor is about saving lives to me. You can't protect by killing.

First of, blaming Tiens death on Kaladin is unfair. He could be the best surgeon in the world, and he wouldn't have been able to save Tien anyway. 

Second, Kaladin did save lives. He saved random people like Cenn who would have been killed without him (granted, Cenn died anyway, but just like with Tien, Kaladin could not have done anything). And he did act as a surgeon, at least for his own men. Being honorable is about having a code and following it. For you, that code might mean no killing. For others, the code will mean some killing.

39 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

Dalinar has killed so many people. 

Dalinar is the SA character with a very obvious code (The Way of Kings) which he follows pretty strictly. The only time I can think of him lapsing is when he teamed with Sadeas, and allowed him to use his bridgemen. But otherwise, he always stays on course, which is why I feel that he is the most honorable.

 

[Ceradis]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

Until Adolin defines his own personal code, we can't really quantify things. He has tried to adhere to his father's code and had lapses due to things that he could not abide. Once he's found his own code, I think he'll be pretty high up on the list. 

As far as "Honorable" is, by the definition shown so far, the most Honorable character is easily Szeth. He will stand by his chosen code of conduct to the detriment of all else. Himself included. 

I don't necessarily agree that Szeth is the most honorable. I think that is commendable, after a fashion, that he has chosen to follow rules and laws placed upon him by others, but I don't think that makes him honorable. He followed those codes despite the fact that they were dishonorable; so Szeth appreciates justice above all else. However, I think that is distinct from honor.

Syl says to Kaladin in WoR that what matters to someone that is honorable is doing whats right.

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, winter devotion said:

Kaladin isn't racist, he's biased.

Quote

They don't have a king, they have a guy who tell them what to do

Being biased against a specific ethnic group is 97% of my definition of racist.

[the winter system]

45 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Being biased against a specific ethnic group is 97% of my definition of racist.

Racism =/= bias against a specific ethnic group. Racism = systemic oppression of a specific ethnic group. You can't be racist to white people, and you can't be racist to lighteyes. I figured this was obvious? 

[Scriptorian]

1 hour ago, winter devotion said:

Racism =/= bias against a specific ethnic group. Racism = systemic oppression of a specific ethnic group. You can't be racist to white people, and you can't be racist to lighteyes. I figured this was obvious? 

I've recently learned that there are in fact two distinct uses of "racism", and that very few realize that the people they are argueing with might use it completely differently than they do.

There's the meaning I default to, probably what king of nowhere is using, that racism is a subset of personal bigotry or predejuce against different ethnicities. In this use, anyone could be racist against anyone else, regardless of societal circumstances. 

Then there's the definition winter devotion cites, that racism is a form of systemic oppression. In this case, it's a societal failing rather than a personal one. 

Neither is the "correct" definition, but it makes discourse rather difficult when we use the same word two different ways and neither side realizes it. 

To the address the topic at hand, I don't think either use of racism is actually applicable to the lighteyes/darkeyes situation. They're not really different "ethnicities", it's just a caste system with weird genetics making the distinction between the two castes physically obvious. Sure, Kaladin has what one could easily call "predijuce" towards lighteyes, but he'd still have a problem with the ruling class if they didn't have a cosmetic distinction. So "racism" never felt like the right word to me. 

Also, I get really nitpicky with semantics, can you tell? 

Edit: as far as the "honorability" of the characters, I'd go Dalinar->Kaladin->Adolin. Among other things, honor to me has to be a conscious choice to follow your "code" even/especially when other options have less reistence. Dalinar is constantly having to make the decision that goes against his natural inclinations. Kaladin is also very disciplined, and realizes in WoR that he can't protect only the people he likes. Adolin is a good person, but other than the Sadeas situation, it doesn't seem as if he's had to make any decisions that greatly challenged his ethics. So I'd say they're all "honorable", but if I had to rank them, that's my reasoning. 

Edit 2: Szeth is a whole other can of worms that's gets into whether following any given "code" is honorable. We don't know the full story, but it seems to me, that if he was really willing to stick to his convictions, he wouldn't have meekly accepted his judgment when his honor demanded that he was speaking truth. But perhaps this view is why I'd never make it as a Skybreaker. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Scriptorian

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, winter devotion said:

Kaladin isn't racist, he's biased. He doesn't have the power to oppress lighteyes, and he knows it.

Um, that's what racism is. A racially based bias. 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, winter devotion said:

Racism =/= bias against a specific ethnic group. Racism = systemic oppression of a specific ethnic group. You can't be racist to white people, and you can't be racist to lighteyes. I figured this was obvious? 

Sorry for the double post but this is wrong. 

The oppressive action of the system are due entirely to the interconnection of class and race. 

"racism" doesn't stop being racism just because the race you happen to hate is the majority/in power. 

I'm going to stop now before I start saying things that will get me in trouble. 

This is a topic that... Just yeah. I won't lie. That belief make me angry. 

[the winter system]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Sorry for the double post but this is wrong. 

The oppressive action of the system are due entirely to the interconnection of class and race. 

"racism" doesn't stop being racism just because the race you happen to hate is the majority/in power. 

I'm going to stop now before I start saying things that will get me in trouble. 

This is a topic that... Just yeah. I won't lie. That belief make me angry. 

Your belief also makes me angry but I can acknowledge that there's no way to really make you see my perspective and there's no way I can see yours.

Either way, race is obviously the wrong. word here, it's more like... chromiaphobia? Eyecolorism? Optical discrimination? Heh. 

[Scriptorian]

7 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

Either way, race is obviously the wrong. word here, it's more like... chromiaphobia? Eyecolorism? Optical discrimination? Heh. 

Misjasnahism?

Edited July 20, 2017 by Scriptorian