Forerunner

Honor Broken

25 posts in this topic

I have been wondering how and when exactly Honor was shattered. If someone has a more definitive answer that I've missed, please link it.

My theory postulates that Honor was shattered at the same time the Oath Pact was broken by nine of the Heralds in the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive. A few points of evidence I have for this theory:

  • Kalak mentions feelings something "break" inside of him once he decides to give up the Oath Pact. This could be just a creative description/visual by Brandon explaining how the Heralds could not take anymore suffering; however, I think he used the word as a double meaning to mirror another piece of Honor's shard "breaking off" or creating a crack to weaken Honor.
  • The remainder of Honor became a Cognitive Shadow known as the Stormfather. There were no mentions of Highstorms or gemstones in the Prelude and it seemed that the Herald and/or Knights Radiant could access Stormlight/Investiture without them.

Now we have a WoB saying that the breaking of the Oath Pact is only tangentially related:

Quote

WETLANDER

Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

WETLANDER

Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, indeed.

Assuming that Honor bonded with the Heralds in the same manner as spren and KR, the Heralds weakened Honor by giving up the Oath Pact. This made Honor easier to shatter by Odium, but did not directly cause it. 

Side NOTE: If this is proven false, I also wonder if the inverse is the case. The Oath Pact was broken because Odium was in the process/had already broken Honor and the Heralds bond to it and their own honor was weakened.

 

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Honor was alive when the Oathpact happened.

Quote

Question

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

Brandon Sanderson

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

Honor lived to see the Recreance.

Quote

Question

Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe after. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance.

Edit: also this

7 minutes ago, Forerunner said:

The remainder of Honor became a Cognitive Shadow known as the Stormfather. There were no mentions of Highstorms or gemstones in the Prelude and it seemed that the Herald and/or Knights Radiant could access Stormlight/Investiture without them.

Highstorms, and Stormlight in Gemstones predate Honor's arrival.

Quote

There was a point when the Heralds didn't need to draw Stormlight from gems, although the stormlight-in-gems predates Honor's arrival.

 

Edited by The One Who Connects
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7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Honor was alive when the Oathpact happened.

Honor lived to see the Recreance.

Edit: also this

Highstorms, and Stormlight in Gemstones predate Honor's arrival.

 

Thank you. I believe I limited my search too much when I was going through Theoryland for WoB on this matter. Honor kicked back too many results.

@Calderis and @The One Who Connects - Would you agree or argue that the abandonment of the Oathpact weakened Honor? Where do you stand on the theory of the Heralds bonding directly to Honor similar to the Nahel Bond the Knights Radiant have with spren?

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24 minutes ago, Forerunner said:

Honor kicked back too many results.

The trick is to never search for "Honor." The only WoBs of any merit always have a secondary term that's easier. Heralds, Recreance, Oathpact, etc..

24 minutes ago, Forerunner said:

Would you agree or argue that the abandonment of the Oathpact weakened Honor?

Possibly. I won't say that it did, but that abandonment might have affected how Honor operated from then on.

24 minutes ago, Forerunner said:

Where do you stand on the theory of the Heralds bonding directly to Honor similar to the Nahel Bond the Knights Radiant have with Spren?

I won't call it that similar, but they did have a connection to Honor for their Stormlight usage back in the day.

Quote

[04:22]

Q: The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

A: Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades (pretty sure he means Honorblades here) were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Q: Like Vin and Elend?

A: Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Edited by The One Who Connects
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@Forerunner I don't believe that the Heralds were directly bonded to Honor at all, at least not individually. The Oathpact may count as some kind of bond and their breaking of it may have weakened Honor somehow, but The Heralds abandonment, and even Honor's death did not fully break the Oathpact. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#10

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#15

Quote

QUESTION ()

What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end.

QUESTION

Oh. So they've got a time limit.

BRANDON SANDERSON

They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

QUESTION

So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

Quote

QUESTION ()

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds

As far as the Heralds ability to pull investiture from Honor, I believe this was a function of the Honorblades. After his Splintering the pool from which they drew investiture is no longer accessible, so they are forced to use Stormlight like a Nahel bond, but as it was never designed for that purpose they are now much less efficient at it. 

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The Honorblades were powerful splinters of Honor. And the heralds were bond to those.

I'm pretty sure Syl is also basically a splinter of Honor.

So both the heralds and the radiants have a similar relation to Honor.

 

There are some differences, though.

Because the Honorblades are more powerful splinters, for one. We haven't seen what an Honorblade can do when someone is properly bonded to one (Szeth wasn't ever bond to the one he used).

Also, the Honorblades were something Honor did intentionally, where the spren-bonding was more an accident. They just mimicked the Honorblades. The spren realized that a splinter of Honor/Cultivation can be bound to a human, and so they did it themselves.

Also note that the Honorblades and spren also both seem to be bound by an oath. In the case of a spren, it is the radiant oaths. In the case of an Honorblade though, it's the oathpact.

 

So... In a sense, the heralds were bonded to Honor... But I wouldn't say they were bound in way that is fundamentally that different than the way the radiants are bonded to Honor. The main difference I'd say is that an Honorblade is intentionally created by Honor and significantly more powerful than a spren.

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1 minute ago, Drake Marshall said:

There are some differences, though.

Because the Honorblades are more powerful splinters, for one. We haven't seen what an Honorblade can do when someone is properly bonded to one (Szeth wasn't ever bond to the one he used).

Nale is using his original Honorblade, and has no powers from it beyond what he should that we know of. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178

Quote

QUESTION

Is Nalan using his original Honorblade, or did he bond a spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He's using his original Honorblade. But there's an asterisk here that will come up in Oathbringer.

I'm fairly sure that asterisk mentioned is the fact that after Honor splintered, the Honorblades lost what made them stronger than the Spren blades. They no longer have a direct connection to unlimited investiture. 

 

Szeth was able to dismiss and summon his Honorblade, so why do you think he was never bound to it? 

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5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Nale is using his original Honorblade, and has no powers from it beyond what he should that we know of. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1178

I'm fairly sure that asterisk mentioned is the fact that after Honor splintered, the Honorblades lost what made them stronger than the Spren blades. They no longer have a direct connection to unlimited investiture. 

 

Szeth was able to dismiss and summon his Honorblade, so why do you think he was never bound to it? 

I believe that there's a WoB out there that says Szeth was never actually truly "bound" to the honorblade.

And Nale might be using his original Honorblade, but it is possible he is in the same position as Szeth. I believe the only way to properly bind to an Honorblade is to actually swear yourself to the Oathpact, and Nale broke the Oathpact.

But I believe that it isn't impossible that, in the future, that a character in possession of an Honorblade might conceivably swear themselves into the Oathpact, properly binding to the Honorblade, and becoming a herald.

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9 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

I believe that there's a WoB out there that says Szeth was never actually truly "bound" to the honorblade.

And Nale might be using his original Honorblade, but it is possible he is in the same position as Szeth. I believe the only way to properly bind to an Honorblade is to actually swear yourself to the Oathpact, and Nale broke the Oathpact.

But I believe that it isn't impossible that, in the future, that a character in possession of an Honorblade might conceivably swear themselves into the Oathpact, properly binding to the Honorblade, and becoming a herald.

I don't disagree that characters will progress into the level of the Heralds. I do disagree that it will involve the Honorblades. 

By this WoB it seems clear that Szeth was bonded. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#13

Quote

QUESTION ()

You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped.

In addition we have... Edgedancer Spoilers. 

Spoiler

Nale says in Edgedancer that because of the lack of Honor's involvement, surgebinders will reach the upper potential of the Oaths and cause a desolation. 

I believe 10 of hour characters will progress beyond the 5th oath, something Honor prevented in the past, and will ascend to be the new Heralds that way. 

I believe that, for the most part, the Honorblades died with Honor. 

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10 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

I believe that there's a WoB out there that says Szeth was never actually truly "bound" to the honorblade.

Brandon has been... inconsistent on the subject.

Quote

QUESTION

Can someone bond more than one Honorblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Honorblade? You can't bond an Honorblade, though it can be given to you. Shardblades, however, come from a Spren bond and it is possible to bond more than one.

Footnote

Later clarified, Brandon misunderstood the question. One may be bound to multiple Honorblades.
Quote

Question ()

You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up?

Brandon Sanderson

Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped.

Szeth is an interesting case, as he has let his disappear when dropped. (WoK I-9 Death Wears White)

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My current understanding of the "can't/can bond honorblades" issue is:

  1. Anyone can "bond" an honorblade, probably through a process similar to bonding a shardblade, and acquire the ability to summon/dismiss it.
  2. The blade can't "belong" to anyone other than the Herald it was made for.
  3. The Herald each honorblade was made for originally received some kind of additional power over what we've seen Szeth do with an honorblade that may or may not still be available to them.  This may have simply been the ability to be fueled by the Shard Honor directly, or it may include the ability to summon their blade away from someone else who has picked up/bonded it, we just don't know.

My take on the controversy is that the confusion was originally introduced because Sanderson was trying to indicate to fans that honorblades are distinct in their operation and the powers they confer from shardblades, but he wasn't ready to reveal some of the information we've received since.  IE: he wanted to clarify that there were powers that Szeth couldn't draw from his honorblade, but he didn't want to reveal why.

Just my take on the issue; I'm not aware of any actual functional changes or rewrites on the topic.

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@hwiles I've always taken it as any other powers they have came from themselves and not the blades. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1048#4

Quote

RYBAL

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and if not are they under the same restrictions that others are?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you're familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do
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6 hours ago, Forerunner said:

Thank you. I believe I limited my search too much when I was going through Theoryland for WoB on this matter. Honor kicked back too many results.

@Calderis and @The One Who Connects - Would you agree or argue that the abandonment of the Oathpact weakened Honor? Where do you stand on the theory of the Heralds bonding directly to Honor similar to the Nahel Bond the Knights Radiant have with spren?

I'll read this thread more closely later but for now

Quote

WETLANDER

Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

Edit

@The One Who Connects I feel that Szeth is consistent with the WoBs about bounding an Honorblade. He deliberately let's the blade disappear. That WoB I think is saying the difference is that with a Shardblade it will automatically disappear when dropped, with an Honorblade it won't automatically disappear but if you will it to, it will (eg if a bearer gets knocked out and dropped the blade he's screwed, but if he decides to let it disappear it will just like a Shardblade).

Edited by Extesian
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20 minutes ago, Extesian said:

He deliberately let's the blade disappear.

I assumed so, but it's been a point of contention before, so it's better for me not to state assumptions about WoB's until afterwards.

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18 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I assumed so, but it's been a point of contention before, so it's better for me not to state assumptions about WoB's until afterwards.

Aaah thanks, I hadn't seen it been argued before, I'll have a deeper look

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Wait, didn't Szeth need 10 heartbeats to summon his honorblade? Has anybody given that some thought? I doubt the Heralds were limited in such a way. Especially becausel living sprenblades, which were made to imitate the honorblades, do not require these heartbeats. Something about the honorblade has definitely been changed, but it's not exactly like a dead spren, because Kaladin does not hear it screaming. 

Seriously, what is up with that?

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8 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

Wait, didn't Szeth need 10 heartbeats to summon his honorblade? Has anybody given that some thought? I doubt the Heralds were limited in such a way. Especially becausel living sprenblades, which were made to imitate the honorblades, do not require these heartbeats. Something about the honorblade has definitely been changed, but it's not exactly like a dead spren, because Kaladin does not hear it screaming. 

Seriously, what is up with that?

It's just Szeth's Cognitive Perception

Quote

 

macros

Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don’t you read and find out what’s going on there, but remember, the characters’ perception is very important.

macros

So then that’s why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn’t.

Brandon Sanderson

Right, just like—it’s the exact same reason why Kaladin’s forehead wounds don’t heal, because he views himself as need—as having those, somewhere deep inside of him, and that can’t heal until that goes away. And it’s the same reason why in Warbreaker, when you bring something to life your intention, rather than really what you say, is what matters. It’s all about perception.

 

Edited by The One Who Connects
excess blank lines
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10 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

Wait, didn't Szeth need 10 heartbeats to summon his honorblade? Has anybody given that some thought? I doubt the Heralds were limited in such a way. Especially becausel living sprenblades, which were made to imitate the honorblades, do not require these heartbeats. Something about the honorblade has definitely been changed, but it's not exactly like a dead spren, because Kaladin does not hear it screaming. 

Seriously, what is up with that?

It was pure perception. A limit imposed by what he believed. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1050#2

Quote

MACROS

Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don’t you read and find out what’s going on there, but remember, the characters’ perception is very important.

MACROS

So then that’s why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn’t.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Right, just like—it’s the exact same reason why Kaladin’s forehead wounds don’t heal, because he views himself as need—as having those, somewhere deep inside of him, and that can’t heal until that goes away. And it’s the same reason why in Warbreaker, when you bring something to life your intention, rather than really what you say, is what matters. It’s all about perception.

Edit: The One Who Ninjas strikes again. Stronger even than my ninja. 

Edited by Calderis
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9 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

Wait, didn't Szeth need 10 heartbeats to summon his honorblade? Has anybody given that some thought? I doubt the Heralds were limited in such a way. Especially becausel living sprenblades, which were made to imitate the honorblades, do not require these heartbeats. Something about the honorblade has definitely been changed, but it's not exactly like a dead spren, because Kaladin does not hear it screaming. 

Seriously, what is up with that?

Because, for whatever reason, he expects them to it seems

Quote

MACROS

Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szethrequire ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don’t you read and find out what’s going on there, but remember, the characters’ perception is very important.

MACROS

So then that’s why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn’t.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Right, just like—it’s the exact same reason why Kaladin’s forehead wounds don’t heal, because he views himself as need—as having those, somewhere deep inside of him, and that can’t heal until that goes away. And it’s the same reason why in Warbreaker, when you bring something to life your intention, rather than really what you say, is what matters. It’s all about perception.

Edit

HA!!!! All 3 of us. Touche fellas. Touche.

Edited by Extesian
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1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's just Szeth's Cognitive Perception

Just now, Calderis said:

It was pure perception. A limit imposed by what he believed. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1050#2

Just now, Extesian said:

Because, for whatever reason, he expects them to it seems

Been a while since we've had a triple on the same WoB

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1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

Been a while since we've had a triple on the same WoB

We are one. 

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1 minute ago, Extesian said:

The One Who Excalderites

The Ext Who Caldects? 

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The idea about the Heralds being bonded to Honor in some way, and weakening him upon abandonment is something that I can kind of get behind. 

In other threads, were Odiums eventual champion is discussed, people have been stating that Odiums champion might be a way for Honor/KRs to make Odium invest himself in something, and weaken him. 

If that theory is correct then I can definitely see something similar going on with Honor. He invested in the Heralds, but when they abandoned him, that investment weakened him, and allowed Odium to strike in for the kill.

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