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kalaxin

Another Magic System on Roshar

13 posts in this topic

I noticed that in the Ars Arcanum for WoR Khriss says that her "research suggests that, indeed, there should should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric then Voidbinding." Then continues to say she thinks it's unlikely that it's the Old Magic. Does anyone have any ideas as to what this could be?

It's important to note that as an in-univers source the Ars Arcanum shouldn't be taken as completely true so she could just be wrong but that explanation doesn't seem like a very satisfying one.

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IIRC Brandon has said fabrials are a part of the 3 systems.

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1 hour ago, Agent34 said:

IIRC Brandon has said fabrials are a part of the 3 systems.

This. This this this. 

I started a whole thread just to discuss the potential of this. 

 

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2 hours ago, Agent34 said:

IIRC Brandon has said fabrials are a part of the 3 systems.

So I do recall this WoB; however, it seems quite clear that the author of Ars Arcanum is not talking about fabrials here. Her discription of these abilities as esoteric and her later discussion of fabrials make it unlikely that this is what she's referring to. Once again, though, she could be wrong

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6 minutes ago, kalaxin said:

Once again, though, she could be wrong

I think this is it. Brandon has said that Fabrials are one of the 3 big systems (along with Surgebinding and Voidbinding), but Khriss likely doesn't count them as magic, but as magitech(like Medallions).

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Ooh, Deja Vu. You wouldn't happen to be from that thread, would you?

37 minutes ago, kalaxin said:

So I do recall this WoB; however, it seems quite clear that the author of Ars Arcanum is not talking about fabrials here. Her discription of these abilities as esoteric and her later discussion of fabrials make it unlikely that this is what she's referring to. Once again, though, she could be wrong

She has no knowledge of any specific abilities, just the expectation that there should be another set of 10 to go alongside Surgebinding and Voidbinding. What 'research' could she be referring to? I think she's obliquely referencing the number of Shards in the system: three Shards, 10 sets of magics per Shard, there should be more magics. But what she doesn't realize (at least as far as I interpret it) is that fabrials aren't just spren captured in gemstones or a mechanical form of Surgebinding; these are a completely different magic system, and at the end of the day we will learn that there are 10 fundamental kinds of fabrials. But the Ars Arcanum author is looking for abilities, and not considering that the 'mechanical' magic of fabrials is what she's looking for.

I'll go into a little more spoilery detail over here, since I actually know how to format spoilers. Spoilers for (most) released Cosmere:

Spoiler

The prototypical example for Ars Arcana being wrong is Mistborn, where the in-world popular understanding of atium as a temporal metal alongside gold was included in the Ars Arcanum. But that is false; cadmium is the actual temporal metal that fills that spot on the table. But, because of the limits of Khriss's understanding (Khriss, a character from White Sand, is the author of all the Ars Arcana, as well as the Arcanum Unbounded essays; you can catch her doing some research with Wax at New Seran in Bands of Mourning), her write-ups that are included in the first three Mistborn books are wrong.

Something that comes up in the Elantris and later Mistborn Ars Arcana (as Brandon started adding more and more character to Khriss's writings) is her acknowledgement of her limitations. In Elantris, she specifically identifies she doesn't understand why someone becomes an Elantrian. In Mistborn Era 2, she speaks of how nobody really knows how the Spiritual Feruchemical metals work (at least, until we see some of them in Bands of Mourning). Since these passages are admittedly a character in-universe talking about the magic, and not something that is 'directly' from the author, then I don't think it's unreasonable for stated suppositions to be viewed with doubt. We can ask why Khriss thinks what she does, and that can be a clue in and of itself, even if she is wrong about additional abilities existing.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure that even in her essays in Arcanum, she has errors. I will need to dig through and find the specific passage, but there are contradictions between her description of Cognitive Shadows (as pieces of Investiture that imprint on a person) and Kelsier's experiences in Secret History (where he died before interacting with the Well). It was quite jarring for me to read that essay (I think it was the Threnodite System), because of how incongruent it was with the only time we had actually seen a Cognitive Shadow's point of view. But Khriss doesn't have access to that sort of information, so she'll say something factually incorrect to the best of her abilities.

This all stems, I think, from Khriss's character. She is a scientist, and part of the scientific process is making hypotheses and then evaluating their veracity. She has made a hypothesis about additional magics on Roshar. As a scientist, she will note have a 100% success rate on these theories, so it should be by no means disingenuous for Brandon to include some faulty ideas in her documentation. It is a little odd, but Brandon does odd things sometimes in his books. (His editors have been giving him a lot of flak for some of Wax's eccentricities. Wax started thinking of he and Lessie as married after the events of Shadows of Self, even though they never actually were... I think it was to keep from forgetting her as he was getting ready to marry Steris. And in Alloy of Law, Wax's POV passages have been inconsistent with Wax and Waxillium in the narration, which is supposed to be a reflection of how Wax views of himself are changing (between lawman and noble). But his editors are like, "Brandon, that never happened, and also stop switching between his name and his nickname.")

 

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Are soulcasters fabrials? Or are the ones used by the creepy stone-like ardents different from what Navani manufactures?

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Jasnah was going to have Navani repair the Davar's broken Soulcasters, right? So they are definitely similar, even if they are not exactly the same.

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On 7/17/2017 at 11:35 AM, Pagerunner said:

he and Lessie as married after the events of Shadows of Self, even though they never actually were...

Yeah they were, it just wasn't the most "official" wedding 

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7 hours ago, King Cole said:

Yeah they were, it just wasn't the most "official" wedding 

Brandon spoke on the subject here. There are intentional contradictions in the text based on Wax's unconsciously shifting perceptions.

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I assumed that she was talking about the naturally occurring spren-bonds of Roshar's native inhabitants (greatshells, skyeels, parshendi, ect.) that are used to access the surges.

I suspect that no one on Roshar, except maybe the parshendi who would be unlikely to be forthcoming with Khriss, understands how the bonds between things like skyeelss/greatshells and spren works, or even understands completely that they exist in the first place.  Khriss, as a scientist, understands that greatshells are too big to sustain life, so she correctly believes there's a magic system keeping them alive, but she doesn't understand it, and neither does anyone else, hence: esoteric magic system.  Her words seem to imply that this magic system ought to be utilized in as yet unrealized ways by the non-native inhabitants of Roshar to achieve access to Investiture.

Indeed, she appears to be correct, as evidenced by the Ryshadium.  The rules and nature of this system, and whether it is one system or many, appear to be a mystery to everyone on Roshar, which is why she had very little to say about it.

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What do we think about the Pure Lake Fishymancers? Is their supposed ability to eat fish and gain powers a hint at what the other magic system could be,or perhaps a weak vestige of the pre-shardic magic system? (like First of the Sun), or maybe just a red herring that actually has no magic ability at all?

These are the Magic Systems we Know of So Far

1) Fishymancing and the Purelake.

The tides of the Purelake were also believed by some to show the lake's attitude, as well as predicting the future.
This Cloudwatching seems reminiscent of Whitesand. A lot of the Purelaker seems like a nod to Taldain.

 

The Purelakers also believed that ingesting certain types of fish would grant supernatural healing or other abilities.

  • Kogril - Considered to be a very lucky fish, granting relief from joint pain and sometimes showing when friends would visit by looking at the shape of the clouds
  • Stumpy cort - Would somehow allow a person to be tracked or located

Possibly the endemic system that developed before the arrival of shards and humans (much like First of the Sun). This could also maybe be something to do with the proximity of a Shardpool or perpendicularity. It also could be something to do with Cultivation, as one needs to cultivate and catch the fish required. It could also possibly be an invasive magic system, much like the viruses brought to the Purelake by worldhoppers. Perhaps some First of Sun parasites managed to be transplanted in the region. 

2) Listening
Parshendi Song Singing that developed independently of a shard. This can be used outside of Roshar, and most likely predates the arrival of shards/humans (but not spren). It is unclear if bonding spren is the same magic system as Listening, or something else. The spren do predate the arrival of humans, and I believe spren were on Roshar before honor/cultivation, but I would need to find a WOB to be sure.

3) Voidinding
This is either the endemic magic system or Odium's magic system, though this might just be a corruption of Listening. It is unclear if Odium has his own magic systems, or he merely twists the systems others have invested in. There is even a possibility that Voidbinding is a new name for the magic, and this is actually Cultivation's magic system and it has been slandered by religious institutions for one reason or another. 

4) The Unmade, the Trill, the Death Rattles, and the Etcetera.
This could be void binding, a mix of void binding with other magics, or something entirely different, We aren't even sure if Death Rattles are something The Unmade produce, or is an effect caused by the Unmade's proximity to other sources of investiture. 

5) Honorblades 
This seems to honour's system though it may have a bit of Cultivation's influence seeping in. 

5b) Surges
These seem to be a mix of honour's ability adapted by the spren. Perhaps more a mix of Honor and Cultivation that honorblades themselves. 

6) Fabrials
Cultivation's main magic system, though her influence is felt in the other versions of magic as well. Perhaps the cultivation of knowledge and power plays into why this ability is granted by such shard. This magic system could also just be a hack of the Gemheart magic system itself. 

7) Gemhearts
Certain creatures cultivate gems in order to grow to monstrous size. Likely this is the same magic system as fibrials, but that is not yet confirmed. Gemhearts often use spren to function, but not always. Perhaps fibrils and gems are different magics using the same catalyst. Perhaps larking's are related to this system somehow.

8) Stoneshamans
Unclear if this is a magic system yet, but it is at least hinted at that there may be something here. Perhaps it is superstition or some vestige of surge or fabrial use. 

9) Amian Weirdness
Perhaps an offshoot of Listening, but there appears to be investiture involved. Listening mixed with cultivation?

10) Shadesmaar Cities
Roshar seems to be unique in having a civilization in the Cognitive realm. Perhaps this is naturally occurring, though it could be a consequence of spren mixing with Listening, or perhaps Cultivation and or Honour decided/were forced to invest in the spren in a much more vigorous manner than other shards have? The cities could be endemic to the region as we suspect Spren predate shards, though we also know there are spren on other worlds as well. 

11) Inexplicably Missing
A mix of Cultivation, Honor, and Odium?


Bonus: 
12) The Sicknesses
of Ashyn (likely Cultivation (growning) and Odium (pain/hate) mix?)

The Inner planet has evolved biological lifeforms that grant abilities to their infected host. WOB confirmation that Renarin doesn't have this magic system, and only the evolved bacteria and/or viruses of Ashyn grant these abilities. 

13) The 10 Gas Giants
These resemble 10 gemstones, and are said to be very influential on the Rosharan System. Are these the cage of Odium, a correlate to Fabirals/gemhearts, or something else entirely?
 

 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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On 7/24/2017 at 1:05 PM, teknopathetic said:

1) Fishymancing and the Purelake.

As much as I love "Fishymancing", it would not be the Internet if I didn't point out that the proper term is Ichthyomancy.

You're welcome. I'll be here all week. Try the prime rib.

p.s. Isn't there a Dawn-magic thing too? Dawnshards?

Edited by iamstick
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