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phoenix2563

[OB] New thought on dawnshards

54 posts in this topic

Long time troller, rare poster here.  Just read the prologue posted here for Oathbringer, and had some thoughts I haven't seen mentioned.  

The two black spheres that Gavilar mentions (and shows one to Eshonai), let's assume that these spheres are holding 2 of the Unmade, holding the "Parshendi gods" Eshonai is so fearful of.  .

Regarding dawnshards, Tanavast mentions in one of his visions to Dalinar that "without the Dawnshards, you're doomed".  What if these spheres are two of the lost Dawnshards, the purpose of which was to trap the Unmade ("known to bind any creature voidish or mortal"), which is part of the ending of a desolation?  Other posters here seem to think that the dawnshards are like shardblades, and while I agree that each contains large amounts of investiture that doesn't mean that this would take on the same form.

I also assume that since we're in Roshar that there are 10 Dawnshards, and probably 9 unmade (since 9 is the number of Odium), which leaves one dawnshard to spare for purposes of ending the desolations.  

Also, has anyone thought that perhaps the Dawnsingers were the original "god spren" that the 9 Splinters of Odium corrupted into the Unmade?  If this has any merit to it, could there be one dawnsinger left that remains uncorrupted?

Maybe these are all just crazy theories.   I'll leave to the more versed on this board to chime in :)

 

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8 minutes ago, phoenix2563 said:

Also, has anyone thought that perhaps the Dawnsingers were the original "god spren" that the 9 Splinters of Odium corrupted into the Unmade?  If this has any merit to it, could there be one dawnsinger left that remains uncorrupted

I have definitely had this thought. 

The Unmade, by definition of their name, were previously something else. 

The Dawnsingers, at least in my mind, are the obvious choice. 

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I haven't come across a lot of info on the dawnsingers, probably because there hasn't been much stuff about them yet. Are they not supposed to be weapons stronger than honorblades?

Edit:I got confused with dawnsingers and dawnshards.

Edited by Megasif
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3 hours ago, Megasif said:

I haven't come across a lot of info on the dawnsingers, probably because there hasn't been much stuff about them yet. Are they not supposed to be weapons stronger than honorblades?

Edit:I got confused with dawnsingers and dawnshards.

We don't know what they are, other than they are supposed to be able to "bind anything" which makes them sound more like a trap than an outright weapon. 

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In one of Dalinar's visions, a Knight Radiant and her squires were hunting one of the unmade.

 

How were they intending to deal with the Unmade? Perhaps your theory on Dawnshards utilisation is correct/

Edited by vikorr
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3 minutes ago, vikorr said:

In one of Dalinar's visions, a Knight Radiant and her squires were hunting one of the unmade.

 

How were they intending to deal with the Unmade? Perhaps your theory on Dawnshards utilisation is correct/

No, they were hunting a single spren corrupted by sja-anat, not the Unmade itself. 

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Ah for some reason I thought they were hunting sja-anat. Wasn't Sja-anat the only one able to raise Thunderclasts?

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5 minutes ago, vikorr said:

Ah for some reason I thought they were hunting sja-anat. Wasn't Sja-anat the only one able to raise Thunderclasts?

I don't know. I think from that vision it's able to corrupt spren somehow. That may include the ones that animate Thunderclasts but I don't know. 

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I've read in an interview with Peter that dawnshards was an old name for the honorblades. Can anyone confirm this or did I read it wrong?

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14 minutes ago, Megasif said:

I've read in an interview with Peter that dawnshards was an old name for the honorblades. Can anyone confirm this or did I read it wrong?

I've seen that... I'm not convinced. The in book references to the Dawnshards... How do the Honorblades bind any creature voiding or mortal? And why would Tanavast in the visions refer to them as something lost. "but without the Dawnshards..." the Honorblades are still around. Tanavast speaks as if they're gone. 

I suppose it could be correct... It just... Doesn't feel right. 

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I mean there's been speculation as to the special powers of the honorblades. So far, the shardblades are ostensibly more useful, having the ability to change shape etc. But honorblades are said to be more powerful. This could be due to them having the ability 'to bind any creature voiding or mortal'. This could be that it kills them instead of just trapping them.

As in, the way shardblades are dangerous to humans and other living organisms, honorblades/dawnshards could be the same to the spren, or the unmade.

Edited by Megasif
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3 minutes ago, Megasif said:

I mean there's been speculation as to the special powers of the honorblades. So far, the shardblades are ostensibly more useful, having the ability to change shape etc. But honorblades are said to be more powerful. This could be due to them having the ability 'to bind any creature voiding or mortal'. This could be that it kills them instead of just trapping them.

As in, the way shardblades are dangerous to humans and other living organisms, honorblades/dawnshards could be the same to the spren, or the unmade.

Well it's been confirmed (and I'll hunt for it and try to find it) that the Honorblades were directly fueled by Honor during the desolations zoo the Heralds didn't need Stormlight. And Honorblades "bond" to whoever is holding them... So what if the sentence there is incomplete. 

What if it should read "know to bind any creature, Voidish or mortal, to Honor." 

Tanavast's death, and the splintering of Honor would make that no longer feasible so Tanavast's remorseful words for their loss would make sense. 

Hmmm. I'll have to think about this. 

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32 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Well it's been confirmed (and I'll hunt for it and try to find it) that the Honorblades were directly fueled by Honor during the desolations zoo the Heralds didn't need Stormlight. And Honorblades "bond" to whoever is holding them... So what if the sentence there is incomplete. 

What if it should read "know to bind any creature, Voidish or mortal, to Honor." 

Tanavast's death, and the splintering of Honor would make that no longer feasible so Tanavast's remorseful words for their loss would make sense. 

Hmmm. I'll have to think about this. 

That would explain their 'loss'. So apart from the holder not needing any stormlight, would it have any other special abilities. I feel they probably do, though, besides my theory about it being harmful to the unmade, I can't think of anything else atm.

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May I be so bold and do a bit of self-advertisement? :) 

I've started another thred about this months ago:

Hope you find it useful.

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Blueshard, thanks for posting.  I read your thread and have a few more thoughts:

Remember in Tanavast's vision that his comment that "the dawnshards are lost" may have been at that time his messages were recorded.  Maybe since then 2 dawnshards have been recovered, without anyone realizing what they were?

Also, your thread seems to imply that there is a wob that Gavilar's sphere was not a dawnshard.  Can you post his exact wording here?

To Megasif:  in regards to your thought that the honor blades were the dawnshards, it seems like a stretch to me.  Your point seems to rest on that the honorblades are no longer capable of bonding to Honor, but they are splinters of Honor by definition.  Also, if honor could simply bind the unmade with his essence, why didn't he just do it long before his death?  Why are these "dawnshards" such a critical component?

I think that both the dawnsingers and dawnshards predate the arrival of Honor, Cultivation and Odium (hence "dawn"), and we're based on the previous investiture (old magic) on the planet, I'm assuming this was originally from Adonalsium  That is why the dawnshards were effective at binding the Unmade when nothing else was.

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Also, I just read in another dawnshards thread from June 4 that there is a WOB that an honerblade is not the same thing as a dawnshard.  Does anyone have the exact quote?

Edited by phoenix2563
Grammer
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@phoenix2563 I dont have the one you are looking for, bc I also seem to remember him saying that somewhere, but I have another that gets the same idea across:

What’s the difference between a Dawnshard and a Shardblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They’re actually, they… You will find out. (laughter) I can’t really reveal that right now, because that’s a RAFO. I’ve got RAFO cards that I can give you that say “Sorry I can’t answer your question.”

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=689

So by saying that you will find out how they are different confirms that they are, indeed, different. Thats how I read it at least.

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6 hours ago, Ammanas said:

@phoenix2563 I dont have the one you are looking for, bc I also seem to remember him saying that somewhere, but I have another that gets the same idea across:

What’s the difference between a Dawnshard and a Shardblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They’re actually, they… You will find out. (laughter) I can’t really reveal that right now, because that’s a RAFO. I’ve got RAFO cards that I can give you that say “Sorry I can’t answer your question.”

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=689

So by saying that you will find out how they are different confirms that they are, indeed, different. Thats how I read it at least.

This wob is not as helpful as I would have hoped, as we know for sure from the books that honorblades and shardblades are definitely NOT the same thing.

Honor blades are the 10 splinters of Honor given to the heralds, each tied to different aspects of Honor.  Anyone can use an Honorblade and have access to the related two surges associated with that splinter with no spren involvement required.

My understanding is that shardblades are manifestations of specific types of spren (still investiture, but usually of both Honor and Cultivation) that due to a certain level of oaths obtained through the Nahel bond are able to fully manifest themselves into the physical realm into a physical object that is able to mimic what an honorblade does.  The type of spren determines what 2 surges are accessible.  I don't remember exactly where this is from WOR, but this is actually what led to the forming of the knights radiant and the establishement of the 10 orders, as Ishar saw that without Oaths to bind the knights they were far too powerful with too much potential for destruction if the power was misused.

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On the subject of the Unmade (and I want to point out that I am by no means well versed in Sanderson, but I read the Mistborn books and have read and reread the first two stormlight books qhile i make my first journey through Elantris), is it possible that the Unmade are really the Heralds? I mean, there are 9 Unmade, right? 9 of the Heralds broke their bond, leaving one to suffer in Damnation (Prologue of WoK). By giving up the honorblades they could have become unmade, maybe?

Plus, there is the confirmation from Sanderson that Shalash is "unmaking" (read: destroying) likenesses of herself, and Nale is "unmaking" (read: destroying/killing) budding Knights Radiant.

Edit: words/typo

Edited by Reaperess
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18 minutes ago, Reaperess said:

I'm the subject of the Unmade (and I want to point out that I am by no means well versed in Sanderson, but I read the Mistborn books and have read and reread the first two stormlight books qhile i make my first journey through Elantris), is it possible that the Unmade are really the Heralds? I mean, there are 9 Unmade, right? 9 of the Heralds broke their bond, leaving one to suffer in Damnation (Prologue of WoK). By giving up the honorblades they could have become unmade, maybe?

Plus, there is the confirmation from Sanderson that Shalash is "unmaking" (read: destroying) likenesses of herself, and Nale is "unmaking" (read: destroying/killing) budding Knights Radiant.

I find this unlikely.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1052#64

Quote

QUESTION

Before the Recreance, there were three Bondsmiths. Did they all bond supersprens, or is Dalinar an exception?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They did something similar.

QUESTION

Can the Unmade be bonded?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Wow...plausible. Er, possible, I should say.

QUESTION

If you came up with a Radiant-like ideal, for yourself as a writer, what would it be?

BRANDON SANDERSON

What a great question! (writes the answer in asker's book).

FOOTNOTE

Does this imply that the unmade are spren?

They are splinters, and could plausibly be bonded like spren. 

In addition 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1175#5

Quote

QUESTION

He also signed my WoR and I asked him to write something about the Unmade (this one is quoted word by word. Can't add picture right now)

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Most of the Unmade are not what we would call sapient. But a few are different..."

So while we don't know what was "unmade" in their creation, they are not all of human level intellect. 

My money is on the Dawnsingers, but we know even less about them so... 

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Assuming that the unmade were once the dawnsingers (of the old magic, ie adolnasium before it shattered), and also assuming that there were 10 dawnsingers, would this imply that there is one dawnsinger that has not been "unmade"?  Perhaps that whatever this is is the third megaspren that the bondsmiths are able to bond with?  This would imply the three bondsmith spren would be the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and the remaining uncorrupted dawnsinger (maybe Cusicesh?)

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Perhaps someone should ask Brandon if Cusicesh has ever been bonded by a Bondsmith?

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5 minutes ago, phoenix2563 said:

Perhaps someone should ask Brandon if Cusicesh has ever been bonded by a Bondsmith?

While it's the obvious one, I don't believe it's right because of this

Quote

Question

Talking about the Stormfather, are the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren, Cusicesh, are they on the same level?

Brandon Sanderson

The Nightwatcher, yes. Um...uh...there are...I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that’s what Cusicesh is.`

Question

So the Nightwatcher is a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

They call the Nightwatcher a spren. Everyone in the books thinks the Nightwatcher is a spren. That’s what they would call...that’s what they would call, if they knew what Honor was, they would call Honor a spren. A spren is Investiture that is alive. So they would call Nightblood a spren. That’s the word for what all of these things are. They would probably call Adonalsium a spren. [Laughter] If...Right...So.

Question

What would Hoid call one of those? What would Hoid call the Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

Um…[long pause]

Question

If Hoid were to use a non-proper noun?

Brandon Sanderson

Unpleasant names. [general laughter]

Brandon clearly indicates Cusicesh is a spren of a different order to the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather. I think Cusicesh has some serious potential, and I'm fascinated by the changing faces. I think it has to do with the Iriali, or the Recreance (though not as a Bondsmith spren), though with little evidence. It would make so much sense for it to be the third Bondsmith spren, with it being trapped like that. But because of that WoB, and because it's almost too obvious, I think the third spren is quite different.

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I agree that Cusicesh isn't on the same level as Honor and Cultivation's spren.  But if Cusicesh is a dawnsinger that would still put it above most other spren on Roshar.  Maybe the 3rd bondsmith spren isn't as powerful as the other 2?  If not Cusicesh, I still like the idea that the 3rd bondsmith spren is the single uncorrupted dawnsinger.  To me, that's what it would take to get even close to the level of the Stormfather or Nightwatcher.

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