Calderis Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 I understand that we've been told that spikes never really heal and they always hurt. I... Don't think that's universal. The numbers and placement of spikes in inquisitors, yeah but every spike? I don't remember Spook complaining about his Pewter spike. I don't understand how someone could have a spike and be unaware if it constantly hurt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 Remember, Ruin wanted the people he spiked to ignore their spikes. As soon as the metal was inside of them he was able to influence them in small ways like speaking to them or nudging Vin to keep her earring on. In the case of Spook and Penrod I think Ruin kept them from feeling pain to make it easier to forget that they had a piece of metal stuck inside them. Ruin probably didn't care whether or not the Inquisitors felt any pain, they were under his complete control anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 That's the part that bothers me in the explanation though. Ruin's ability to control someone with a single spike is very limited, and preventing pain seems to be against the intent. The combination of those two factors is... Problematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 40 minutes ago, Calderis said: I understand that we've been told that spikes never really heal and they always hurt. I... Don't think that's universal. The numbers and placement of spikes in inquisitors, yeah but every spike? I don't remember Spook complaining about his Pewter spike. I don't understand how someone could have a spike and be unaware if it constantly hurt... That's an excellent point. We also have it that the pain caused by the spikes "responds" to intense emotions. I've always assumed that the pain increases in intensity in response to intense emotions, however, this has never been clarified as far as I'm aware. I'd guess that the pain is a reaction to the effect of the damage caused by the spikes, and therefore, should only be noticeable once the damage is significant. This is speculation, but I'm guessing 4 spikes in a human, which is generally enough to allow Ruin/Harmony to possess someone, is the threshold for which the pain becomes noticeable and persistent. My next guess would be that the pain starts once a person has enough spikes that they require the "linchpin" spike in their spine to keep their spiritweb from being ripped apart by the strain on their soul (between 5 and 11 spikes). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scriptorian Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) Remember that hemalurgy can cause pretty dramatic physiological changes (koloss, inquisitors, etc.) Considering this, it's not much of a stretch to me that some spikes could be placed in such a way as to not cause continual pain. Also, a railroad spike in your face would probably tend to hurt more than a sliver in your shoulder or an earring. So I guess I agree with the opening post that spikes aren't necessarily a constant source of pain. Ruin diverting attention probably helped too. Do we have a WoB or something saying that spikes always hurt? All I remember is Marsh saying that his hurt. Edit: ah! Ninjas! Another thought I had is that maybe the pain is spiritual in nature, specifically as the hemalurgist's soul gets more and more tattered. Maybe the soul is trying to reject the foreign sDNA like a body will reject a donated organ. This would explain at least why Vin and Spook's spikes were not as painful as an inquisitor's and why the pain responds to emotion. Edit again: or maybe it's cognitive and they only hurt because they think it should. Since Vin and Spook never thought about theirs, they didn't hurt. Or something like that. Edited July 12, 2017 by Scriptorian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Calderis said: That's the part that bothers me in the explanation though. Ruin's ability to control someone with a single spike is very limited, and preventing pain seems to be against the intent. The combination of those two factors is... Problematic. He can build up, if that construction can topple and take out two other things. Dulling hemalurgic pain so that his victim can continue to destroy should be child's play. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 5 hours ago, hwiles said: I'd guess that the pain is a reaction to the effect of the damage caused by the spikes, and therefore, should only be noticeable once the damage is significant. This is speculation, but I'm guessing 4 spikes in a human, which is generally enough to allow Ruin/Harmony to possess someone, is the threshold for which the pain becomes noticeable and persistent This is pretty much my head canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 6 hours ago, Calderis said: Ruin's ability to control someone with a single spike is very limited, and preventing pain seems to be against the intent. He can influence them to ignore the pain so that they can cause mayhem. He may be able to use the logic of "which action will cause more ruin?" to justify it to his Intent if need be. 6 hours ago, Calderis said: I don't remember Spook complaining about his Pewter spike. Come to think of it, could he not be feeling too much pain because he's burning pewter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Come to think of it, could he not be feeling too much pain because he's burning pewter? I can accept that after "Kelsier" informs him he can use pewter. It's hard to accept that he would instinctively burn a metal that he believes he's unable to. Did he use pewter prior to being informed of his gift? Edit: what am I even saying... He's a storming tin savant. Pewter or no pewter, if it hurts he should feel it. Edited July 12, 2017 by Calderis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Calderis said: Did he use pewter prior to being informed of his gift? No. He gets spiked and passes out at the end of Chap 16, and wakes up in the burning building in Chap 19. He is then led to a table with the vials, and told he can use Pewter. However, the chapter summary explains why he doesn't notice the pain before taking the pewter. His Savanthood drawbacks. Quote Summary Spook regains consciousness, and feels numbed due to a lack of tin to burn. He hears a voice that tells him he has lost a lot of blood and that he will soon die from flames, and realizes he is in a burning building. The voice guides him to a room that has a desk containing Allomantic vials, and he drinks the contents of one. He sees a figure that talks to him, telling him that the vials didn't belong to a Tineye so they wouldn't have tin, but Spook discovers that he can now burn pewter, thanks to the mysterious figure who resembles Kelsier. Spook is told to escape so that he can exact revenge. He doesn't feel the pain because he can hardly feel anything without Tin. Not to mention the blood loss probably messed with him too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: He doesn't feel the pain because he can hardly feel anything without Tin. Not to mention the blood loss probably messed with him too OK, that part totally makes sense, but now my brain is stuck on once he is burning tin, is pewter really up to countering savant level tin enhancing the pain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoidhunter Posted July 15, 2017 Report Share Posted July 15, 2017 Well...burning pewter helps him to ignore pretty much all of the other drawbacks to run savanthood. So why not. After all, when the spike gets pulled out he collapses from exhaustion and blood loss. If pewter can block all that out...a sword tip in his shoulder shouldn't be too much of a bother. Just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Where does the concept of all hemalurgic spikes being painful come from? I don't think it can be universal, because if Vin's earring hurt that would have been a huge tip-off, given that healed ear piercings normally don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 5 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Where does the concept of all hemalurgic spikes being painful come from? Marsh. After defeating the Lord Ruler, Vin asks him if his spikes hurt, and he replies with "Yes. All eleven of them hurt." I would have figured it's human nature to think a spike to the eye hurts(which is why Vin asks). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted July 17, 2017 Report Share Posted July 17, 2017 Zane mentions that his mind gets fuzzy and distracted when he thinks about his spike and he doesn't like wearing cloaks because of how they rub against his spike, presumably because of the additional weight of the fabric compared to a normal shirt, as shirts don't bother him. I think it's fair to speculate that the pain from a single spike would be much less than that from 11 spikes. I propose that Ruin could Ruin someone's mind (see what I did there? ) by slowly making them ignore the spike and everything about it entirely. The entry wound from when the spike is first installed hurting isn't going to confuse anyone. I'd speculate though that, over time, Vin and Zane gradually forgot about and learned to ignore the pain completely due to Ruin inserting thoughts and feelings into their minds. It doesn't violate Ruin's intent to brainwash someone into not noticing that their spike hurts, his Intent isn't to cause pain, it's to embody the spirit of entropy and change. His eroding a person's ability to feel something is perfectly inline with his Intent. His ability to make them forget about the spike is limited though. Inquisitors were either just too damaged to keep out of agony, or he didn't care to, and Zane's spike was uncomfortable enough for him to notice when anything brushed against it (like any wound). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted July 19, 2017 Report Share Posted July 19, 2017 On 7/17/2017 at 10:34 AM, The One Who Connects said: Marsh. After defeating the Lord Ruler, Vin asks him if his spikes hurt, and he replies with "Yes. All eleven of them hurt." Ah, OK. Still, though, all Inquisitor spikes are in locations that would be painful if not fatal for a normal human; an earring isn't. Now that I think of it, Wax's earring is Hemalurgic too, and Ruin definitely isn't messing with his perceptions. I think the Pathians would have trouble recruiting if becoming one meant constant pain (and I don't think Harmony would have set it up, either). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted July 19, 2017 Report Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) It's also worth pointing out that, when viewing the Sovereign's memory, Wax does not experience any remembered pain from the spike. Edited July 19, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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