Iriali and the Long Trail

[+Extesian]

The Long Trail. It’s speculated on a bit in the past, so not all these ideas are mine, but I want to bring together what we know, propose the possible history of the Iriali and open it up to comments.

 

For background, the Iriali are a group of people from Iri, on Roshar. Iri was one of the Silver Kingdoms, though part of it split off. Iriali are distinctive for having golden hair, yellow eyes and a yellow tinge to their skin. Ym was Iriali, and talked about the religion of One as well as the Long Trail. One was God, and knew everything but experienced nothing, so split itself apart into different life to experience everything. When all becomes One again, One will absorb these experiences essentially. As for the Long Trail, Roshar is the fourth land the Iriali have been in, and when they get to the seventh, all will become One again.

 

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"One being," Ym said. He set aside that shoe and got out another. "Long ago, there was only One. One knew everything, but had experienced nothing. And do, One became many-us, people. The One, who is both male and female, did so to experience all things."

"We are Iriali, and part of the Long Trail, of which this is the fourth land."

"Eventually, all will be gathered back in- when the Seventh Land is attained- and we will once again become one."

"More people did know this, once. It's not talked about as much as it should be..."

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Botanica

“If you wish to say it that way,” Ym said. “But it is not completely true. I accept no god. You should accept no god. We are Iriali, and part of the Long Trail, of which this is the Fourth Land.”

“Accept no priests either,” Ym said. “Those are from other lands, come to preach to us. Iriali need no preaching, only experience. As each experience is different, it brings completeness. Eventually, all will be gathered back in―when the Seventh Land is attained―and we will once again become One.”

 

 Wait! The Iriali, are they nomadic people who travel between various Shardworlds? Is the "Long Trail" their travel path? So the "Fourth Land" refers to Roshar? (Roshar is exactly the fourth Shardworld we get to know. But I saw you note on the forum that we shouldn't use the publication order? Then it's hard to speculate.)

Peter

2. Yes, they travel between various Shardworlds, and this is the 4th planet they have been on.

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Question

I’ve been fixating on this mass exodus. The Iriali, are they the people of the mass exodus? I’ve always wanted it to be the people of Threnody.

Brandon Sanderson

The Iriali are not native to Roshar. There is stuff going on on Threnody too, it shares some similarities.

 

So the relevant speculation is what were the first three lands they were in.

 

Braize was not one

 

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Question

The Long Trail of the Iriali, was one of the first three lands Braize?

Brandon Sanderson

Hehehe. No. Excellent question.

 

While it is far from a reliable way to do it, I’ve tried looking at people with yellow or golden hair in the Cosmere. Yes, I’m aware that golden hair shouldn’t be unusual, Earth humans have it. But it’s a start. The main ones I could find were:

Taldain - Kenton has golden blonde hair and a slightly tan, to brown complexion, as a result of his half-Darksider heritage. Kenton's eyes are naturally blue. However, when he uses the full might of his sand mastery powers, his eyes glow with a golden light and his pupils seem to contract or disappear, leaving only the white of his irises (from the Coppermind).

 

Sel - The Patriarch from Elantris, and Ashravan from TheEmperor’s Soul, both have golden hair.

Nalthis – This is the obvious one. The Royals’ hair goes yellow when they are happy or excited. Additionally, Lightsong’s niece had golden hair before she died. And when Vasher manifests his divine breath, appearing Returned, he has golden hair. And yes, Returned and Royals’ can change their hair color. But golden seems to be, hmmm, the natural color?

The only person I could find in Mistborn 1 that has golden hair was Allriane.

 

I think Nalthis is the strongest connection, especially in light of this WoB

 

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Question

The hair color: is there a link between the hair color in Warbreaker and the hair color in – like with the Alethi always have black, and I can’t remember the other country that always have their gold hair coloring?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You are noticing something very interesting which was done deliberately.

 

So let’s (tentatively) lock in Nalthis. Basic idea would be that the Iriali emigrated there, and were possibly the shipmates of Vo, the first Returned, who established Hellandran.

 

For more possible support for Nalthis, Cuseiach the Protector is in Iri and some of the Iriali worship it by putting down golden petals as an offering. Sound familiar? Tears of Edgli perhaps?

 

Of those stories, Nalthis was the most recent in Cosmere chronology. So which one before that? I feel Sel is stretching the link. But let’s put it as a doorstop for now and go back one step, to Taldain.

Kenton, a sandmaster, had golden hair. But significantly, it seems his eyes would glow gold when fully using kinetic investiture. This could make a lot of sense for the descendants of sandmasters to have yellow eyes on Roshar. Eyes seem to be a window to the soul there more than in other places, so perhaps it got to the point where that color became permanent in offspring of sandmasters using investiture.

 

To the connection that I feel makes Taldain the strongest – the tie-in of the religion of One, and Bavadin.

 

We know from plenty of WoBs (I’ll put them in if it becomes important) that Bavadin, holder of the Autonomy Shard, masquerades as various gods and hijacks existing religions. Bavadin is worshipped as both a man and a woman, and in some pantheons is every god in the religion. Sound familiar? “The One, who is both male and female, did so to experience all things”. This could explain why the holder of a Shard of Autonomy masquerades as a religious figure. She knows everything, but her Intent of Autonomy drives her to experience things through the autonomy of individuality. Perhaps One is Autonomy.

 

Given the doubt with Sel, this leaves two options if I’m correct.

The three preceding lands were Taldain, Sel and Nalthis, or they were Yolen, Taldain and Nalthis.

Of course other options are Threnody (but it’s not a Shardworld),Scadrial (could be? I’ve seen nothing for it but nothing against it), Ashyn (possibly, with the proposed link to the Tranquiline Halls – but again, nothing to go on).

 

Of course Yolen is an obvious option, people could have left en masse to escape fain life. However, if Yolen is, I’d say it rules out the Bavadin = One option, and makes it much more likely that Adonalsium = One. That has some merit for it as well, with Adonalsium splitting into component parts. I prefer the Bavadin idea, but Adonalsium is a sensible possibility.

 

I feel pretty confident about Nalthis, and semi-confident about Taldain. The remaining one is up in the air.

 

Here finally are a couple of WoBs to add to the mix, for linguistic/family tree types.

 

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Q: How about the Iriali and Alethi mix we have going on with Adolin and Renarin? Where would this put them within the chibi figures? I have always had a hard time trying to figure out how they would look like due to their mix ethnicity. I have ideas... of course, but I'd be great to have confirmation.

 

A: They're gong to have lighter skin, but skin tone isn't something Alethi pay much attention to. Hair and eye color is what draws their attention. Dalinar and Kaladin will be darker than Adolin and Renarin, though none of them would look Caucasian to us. Of course, Caucasians have varied skin tone as well, so it's hard to say specifically what they'd look like. (As a note, Renarin/Adolin are a Riran/Alethi mix--not exactly Iriali/Alethi, as there's some slightly different genetics going on there.)

 

Q: Oh I thought Riran and Iriali were the same... Where did I go wrong?

 

A: I can't say much without giving spoilers, but there are small differences.

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Q: Since you mention languages on Roshar, are there any languages that are completely unrelated to any other on the planet?

 

A: Our basic language families are:

Vorin: Alethi, Veden, Herdazian, and more distantly Thaylen. Nathan is close to dead, but shares a root, and Karbranthian is basically a dialect. Other minor languages like Bav are in here.

Makabaki: Azish is king here, and most the languages around split off this. There are around thirty of these.

Dawnate: A varied language family with distant roots in the dawnchant. Shin, parshendi, Horneater. They share grammar, but they diverged long enough ago that the vocabulary is very different.

Iri: Iriali, Reshi, Purelake dialects, Riran, and some surrounding languages.

Aimian: These two are lumped together, but are very different. Probably what you were looking for.

That isn't counting spren languages, of course. I might have missed something. Typing on my phone without my wiki handy.

 

So, happy to hear thoughts on why Nalthis and Taldain make sense, and speculation on whether Sel, Yolen or somewhere else is the remaining one of the three so far.

 

But the moral is I think the Iriali were on Nalthis, I think they were on Taldain, I think that perhaps Bavadin is One.

 

Over to you

Edited July 12, 2017 by Extesian
Spacing

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Extesian said:

While it is far from a reliable way to do it, I’ve tried looking at people with yellow or golden hair in the Cosmere. Yes, I’m aware that golden hair shouldn’t be unusual, Earth humans have it. But it’s a start.

I disagree. I think it's a very good way. Their hair is repeatedly stated as being "gold, not blond. It even looked slightly metallic." it's not yellow or blond, it's actual precious metal gold. That is not a natural hair color. 

I don't really have much to add or comment. I like the concept of the Long Trail, but haven't put a lot of thought into it within the Cosmere as an actual journey. 

[+Extesian]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I disagree. I think it's a very good way. Their hair is repeatedly stated as being "gold, not blond. It even looked slightly metallic." it's not yellow or blond, it's actual precious metal gold. That is not a natural hair color. 

I don't really have much to add or comment. I like the concept of the Long Trail, but haven't put a lot of thought into it within the Cosmere as an actual journey. 

Your disagreement pleases me

[Toaster Retribution]

Is Kenton the only guy in White Sand with golden hair? If he is, I kind of feel that it is pretty weak evidence. I'm also not sure about Autonomy being the One. For one, she has blocked accsses to Taldain for unknown reasons. 

I can buy Nalthis though. So far, Nalthis and Roshar are pretty connected through story with Vasher and Nightblood on there, so I would not be surprised to see more Nalthis-related stuff on Roshar. 

I'm interested in two things though:

1. How Cosmere-aware are the Irali? 

2. How will they become the One again, when they are done on planet 7?

 

[Calderis]

Hmmm, there are what 6 more shard we don't know? What If the long trail is literal and a Shard of, knowledge or learning actually invested itself fully into/created a race?

I have no idea how that would work realmatically, but I read this thread right before bed, and woke up to weird thoughts. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Hmmm, there are what 6 more shard we don't know? What If the long trail is literal and a Shard of, knowledge or learning actually invested itself fully into/created a race?

I have no idea how that would work realmatically, but I read this thread right before bed, and woke up to weird thoughts. 

Investing in planets and persons are possible, so I think this is plausible. That would probably mean that the first planet is one we haven't seen yet (Vax?). If we add that to Extesians theory it would mean Unknown planet, Nalthis, Taldain and Roshar. 

[+hwiles]

@Extesian Roshar is teeming with Investiture compared to Taldain. It seems plausible that, if they originated from Taldain, the iriali's golden eyes could simply be a side effect of Roshars Investiture bleeding through them.  It's been established that the Investiture infuses all people on Roshar to some extent, making them generally healthier and more resistant to disease, so this isn't even a stretch.

Sand mastery seems to have problems manifesting in racially mixed offspring, which would explain why iriali hair is passed down, but, generally speaking, not their eyes, to people like Adolin and Renarin.

[What's a Seawolf?]

Is there anyone in Shadows for Silence that is described as having golden hair?

I can see a possibility where the Iriali as a whole were at some point on Therondy, but as they were fleeing the Evil, they somehow became split.  The main part of the group worldhopped, the rest ended up in hell.  

[+hwiles]

44 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Is there anyone in Shadows for Silence that is described as having golden hair?

I can see a possibility where the Iriali as a whole were at some point on Therondy, but as they were fleeing the Evil, they somehow became split.  The main part of the group worldhopped, the rest ended up in hell.  

Not explicitly, but Silence and Nazh are drawn in AU as having light hair. Further, Sebruki is noted as being distinct from Silence for having "darker" skin and hair.

I think it's fair to assume for the time being that at least blond hair is relatively commonplace in Threnody. Iriali metallic gold is a stretch without more evidence.

[FiveLate]

Excellent thoughts, very much along the lines which I have been thinking.  One thing, it is quite feasible that Silverlight was one of the stops and considered a "land".  I had been leaning for Nalthas to be one of the 3, but had not noticed the golden petals.  There are also shard worlds we have not seen so far.

Every time, I see "The One", I get an echo in my mind saying "we live for the One, we die for the One"

[maxal]

8 hours ago, hwiles said:

Sand mastery seems to have problems manifesting in racially mixed offspring, which would explain why iriali hair is passed down, but, generally speaking, not their eyes, to people like Adolin and Renarin.

Adolin and Renarin are half-Riran, not half-Iriali.

[The One Who Connects]

Regarding the One, have the other question that Botanica asked Peter

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28

Botanica

“Because,” Ym said, “you and I are One.”
“One what?”
“One being,” Ym said. He set aside that shoe and got out another. “Long ago, there was only One. One knew everything, but had experienced nothing. And so, One became many―us, people. The One, who is both male and female, did so to experience all things.”^[16]

Is the "One" actually the Adonalsium? Did Ym describe the creation of the cosmere? Many people are assuming that (including me). Are we on the right track?

Peter

1. Maybe!

I know that "maybe" third most ambiguous answer we can get, but it makes sense. I also feel that the 7th Land may be Yolen if the One is Adonalsium. So... Taldain, ??, Nalthis, Roshar, 5, 6, 7.    We have 4 unknowns, and 6/7? options: Yolen, Scadrial, Threnody, Sel, Ashyn, Braize. I'd like Yolen to be the 7th land. As to the others:

• Braize seems unlikely, while Ashyn could work.
• Scadrial could go either way, as it's creation may be unknown to the Iri(no idea what a planet coming into existence would look like in the CR)
• Threnody is still valid because all Peter said is that Roshar is the 4th "planet." Not Shardworld, planet.

16 hours ago, Extesian said:

Basic idea would be that the Iriali emigrated there, and were possibly the shipmates of Vo, the first Returned, who established Hallandren.

My issue with that is timeline. Iri was a Silver Kingdom in the Heraldic Epochs 4,500+ yrs ago. Vo was ~600 years ago. I feel like the Iri/Riran people suddenly becoming golden-haired in the last few centuries feels off, but I like your points about the flowers... Hrmm.
Mid typing Edit: ohhh.. Kaladin thinks that Adolin's mother is Riran due to the blond hair. If blond hair had a precedent, the Iri settling down there too would help them not stand out. They take the name of Iri because that's the people they are joining with. Perhaps this is what led to Iri and Rira having a split to begin with.. I need to look up details on things again

[ccstat]

Great compilation of all the evidence! This is very well reasoned. 

The one piece I'd like to add (though it probably doesn't help much) is the flute Hoid gives to Kaladin. He calls it a "Trailman's flute," and that capitalization has convinced me it is associated with the Iriali Long Trail. I suspect, then, that the flute and storytelling method originate with the as-yet-unknown third shardworld, and when we get more hints about Hoid's past travels we may have a better guess of which it might be.

While I don't think Sel is likely, remember that we have only seen two of the three modern empires, so the Iriali could well have been a feature of the third empire or, depending on the timeframe, of civilization that predated Odium's visit. I doubt we have the clues yet to make a good guess.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, ccstat said:

While I don't think Sel is likely, remember that we have only seen two of the three modern empires, so the Iriali could well have been a feature of the third empire or, depending on the timeframe, of civilization that predated Odium's visit. I doubt we have the clues yet to make a good guess.

The unseen continent is the more likely option. D&D were shattered in human prehistory on sell. This would seem to preclude any real civilization. 

[+Extesian]

Thanks for the responses so far folks. I’ll do some individual responses first.

 

@Toaster Retribution I agree that looking for blonde/yellow/gold hair generally is pushing it, but it is the only option I could think of given it’s such a distinctive trait of the Iriali. Other mastrells on Taldain do not necessarily have the same hair, Drile for example has brown hair. But then Khriss also notes that “he wasn’t the same race as the villagers – his hair was light, instead of the uniform black”. Ais also notes that Lossandins have lighter colour hair, so while I can’t find enough references to more hair colors, that I think indicates that for Lossandins, light hair is normal. Whether it’s metallic gold is a different matter, but that comes to the point later on about Roshar being investiture-rich, as hwiles pointed out.

 

People who have pointed out that there are several remaining Shardworlds we don’t know are right, the gap could of course be any of them. But since we can’t do any kind of informed theorising there I’m just going with the ones we know. Obviously it doesn’t imply those are the only possible ones.

 

@hwiles I didn’t spell it out specifically but Iriali eyes are also passed down along with Iriali hair. General Khal, for example, has yellow eyes, as do quite a few random Iriali we come across. But perhaps it is more recessive than hair as there are certainly some golden haired folks who have different eye colors. That should be no surprise though, eye color is pretty distinctive and we see of course people with two different eye colors.

 

I tried to find if there was anyone in Threnody with similar hair but couldn’t by searching. If anyone’s reading it though I’d be interested in references. But my take is that it’s “Shardworlds”, not just planets, as Peter said in the WoP. Same with Silverlight. @The One Who Connects I know Peter said ‘planet’ but he also said they travel through different Shardworlds. I see that as meaning they only settle on Shardworlds, but maybe we’re just disagreeing on phrasing. (Oh, and you have a very fair point about the timing with Vo and the Silver Kingdoms. I’m finding it hard to nail down exactly when they split from each other as the different epochs don’t seem to be well defined. But that could require some rejigging of the ‘story’. Hmmm. But again, this: "As a note, Renarin/Adolin are a Riran/Alethi mix--not exactly Iriali/Alethi, as there's some slightly different genetics going on there. Q: Oh I thought Riran and Iriali were the same... Where did I go wrong? A: I can't say much without giving spoilers, but there are small differences"

 

@maxal you’re right about the boys being half Ririan, but it was part of the Silver Kingdom of Iri before it broke off in the modern era and I think we have every reason to believe that there would be sufficient interbreeding (if indeed they were ever separate races) to have that bleed through to Ririans.

And @ccstat thanks, and great point about Hoid's flute. I need to do a more expansive search of every book for 'trail'

[maxal]

6 minutes ago, Extesian said:

@maxal you’re right about the boys being half Ririan, but it was part of the Silver Kingdom of Iri before it broke off in the modern era and I think we have every reason to believe that there would be sufficient interbreeding (if indeed they were ever separate races) to have that bleed through to Ririans.

When asked about the difference in between Rirans and Irialis, here is what Brandon had to say:

Quote

QUESTION:

How about the Iriali and Alethi mix we have going on with Adolin and Renarin? Where would this put them within the chibi figures? I have always had a hard time trying to figure out how they would look like due to their mix ethnicity. I have ideas... of course, but I'd be great to have confirmation.

ANSWER

They're gong to have lighter skin, but skin tone isn't something Alethi pay much attention to. Hair and eye color is what draws their attention. Dalinar and Kaladin will be darker than Adolin and Renarin, though none of them would look Caucasian to us. Of course, Caucasians have varied skin tone as well, so it's hard to say specifically what they'd look like. (As a note, Renarin/Adolin are a Riran/Alethi mix--not exactly Iriali/Alethi, as there's some slightly different genetics going on there.)

QUESTION

Oh I thought Riran and Iriali were the same... Where did I go wrong?

ANSWER

I can't say much without giving spoilers, but there are small differences.

It isn't much to go by, but he does say Riran and Iriali had different genetic. He does insist there are differences, but he won't get into them as it would be spoilers. So if interbreeding there were, a genetic difference is still apparent in between both people.

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by maxal

[The One Who Connects]

8 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I’m finding it hard to nail down exactly when they split from each other as the different epochs don’t seem to be well defined. But that could require some rejigging of the ‘story’. Hmmm.  [...] "I can't say much without giving spoilers, but there are small differences."

I figured that the native Iri(now Riran) people had blonde hair, which is why the foreign Iriali(who likely went by a different name) chose to settle there to fit in. There are more or less no details about when Iri/Rira split, with exception to something that I can't nail down which made me think it was a less violent split.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

There are more or less no details about when Iri/Rira split, with exception to something that I can't nail down which made me think it was a less violent split.

If an large enough immigrant population came and was both accepted peacefully, but segregated culturally, it may have simply been a natural split between two competing yet amicable cultures into separate nation states. 

It's rare, but I doubt it's unheard of. 

[+Extesian]

The Long Trail of post-editing. Eventually, all posts will be gathered back in – when the Seventh Post is attained - and they will once again become one. Many people did know this, once. It’s not talked about as much as it should be…

 

(edit - refers to a series of posts that are now hidden)

Edited July 13, 2017 by Extesian

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, Extesian said:

The Long Trail of post-editing. Eventually, all posts will be gathered back in – when the Seventh Post is attained - and they will once again become one. Many people did know this, once. It’s not talked about as much as it should be…

And as the posts regather, the knowledge will be gained, but lo, the posts will be forgotten.

Edit: @Extesian Seriously though, sorry for derailing your thread temporarily. We got his issue fixed and hid the posts. Hope we didn't damage the threads momentum

Edited July 13, 2017 by Calderis

[+Extesian]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And as the posts regather, the knowledge will be gained, but lo, the posts will be forgotten.

Edit: @Extesian Seriously though, sorry for derailing your thread temporarily. We got his issue fixed and hid the posts. Hope we didn't damage the threads momentum

s’all good babybabyyyyy

(It was all a dream! I used to read Word Up magazine)

 

It was good of you to help Calderis, and then you hid the posts anyway J Glad you got it sorted @FiveLate

Though I guess we should stop derailing by talking about previous derailments.

Derailception

[Calderis]

So back to the topic at hand, if Rira and the Iriali split along cultural lines, then Adolin and Renarin would be missing at least directly the nomadic genetics. Which I guess leads to a bigger question. 

How diluted can the bloodlines get before we no longer consider them to be Iriali by descent, and is the Trail limited to them, or do they accept newcomers to join the procession to new worlds? 

[Jonathon]

I don't think that The One would be adonalsium because the way the religion explained, it made it seem like there were no people before the one spilt itself. I could be interpreting it wrong, but that's what I got out of it and if this is the case than that means it can't be adonalsium. 

However, If the one is a shard that could be a very interesting storyline going on in the background. When Préservation and Ruin created people on Scadrial, they placed a small piece of both in the people, but if there is a race of people made from an entire shards worth of power, that would mean they have a lot more inherent Investiture, wouldn't it? 

So then would that mean that they would make stronger surgebinders or allomacners or awakeners, etcetera? Or would it not have any passive effects other than their distinctive appearances?

And what would the intent of a shard have to be for it to want to fully invest in a race of people? And would the consciousness of the shard itself still exist, despite fully being invested? Or will it not return at all until they reach the seventh land?

[Calderis]

@Jonathon my biggest question in that case is, what happens to the people when the Shard reforms?

[Jonathon]

@Calderis My belief is that it depends on how exactly they were created. Were they already a race of people that this adventure-seeking shard invested in? Or are they a race completely created from nothing by this shard?

If it is the latter than I imagine that once they complete the quest to get to the seventh land then they will all suddenly understand what they are and what the one is and somehow, I guess, ascend and all form into the shard again. It would probably be similar to how you reform a splintered shard because that's essentially what this is -- a shard that has been turned into many fragments. 

If it is the former, however, then I'm not entirely sure. Especially with the people who are a mixed breed of part Iriali and part something else. Perhaps it will be as simple as the excess investiture being drained from their systems and returned to the shard. 

 

Random theory i just thought of:

What if the one is ambition? I mean, we know that ambition was splintered before being fully invested in threnody and we know that it was splintered away from the planet. What we don't know is where the splinters of its power went. Perhaps when ambition knew he was dying he turned himself into a race of people and instilled in them a belief in The One, which was weakened over time. That could explain why he fled from odium which doesn't seem like a very ambitious thing to do. Instead, He ambitiously created a group of people to traverse different invested systems with the hope that one day they will be able to reform into Ambition so that he can live once again.