Jump to content

Odium free at the end of Stormlight


red032

Recommended Posts

This is from a topic about Stormlight Archive book structure.
I stole it from @Calderis

 

Quote

Q: RAFOed I'm sure, but you said you are planing 2 arcs of 5 books each in Stormlight Archive. Having read all of your published works (and some unpublished:)) I know your storytelling pace is astronomicaly quick. I'm positive you will end current desolation story in the first 5 books, since as I understod, other 5 books will be set in near future in SA universe. So I guess my question is; can you drop any hint will Odium survive to see 6th SA book:)?
 
A: Oh, Odium will survive. Now, whether the one HOLDING that power will survive...that's a different question. :) (Not quite a RAFO.)

It fits nicely on our discussion.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another thought crossed my mind... if Rayse dies, the shard is not splintered and someone picks up the power, does it means that the board is clear and Odium is free? 
What I mean is: Does the investiture ties only tthe HOLDER, the cognitive part of the symbiotic relatioship (holder + shard)?
If so, at the end of book 5 we can see Rayse defeated and killed. Then the story could progress for the characters trying to forge a new pact with the Holder (it will depend greatly who is this new holder and how long can he still be him(her)self before the shard nature takes over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, red032 said:

Another thought crossed my mind... if Rayse dies, the shard is not splintered and someone picks up the power, does it means that the board is clear and Odium is free? 
What I mean is: Does the investiture ties only tthe HOLDER, the cognitive part of the symbiotic relatioship (holder + shard)?
If so, at the end of book 5 we can see Rayse defeated and killed. Then the story could progress for the characters trying to forge a new pact with the Holder (it will depend greatly who is this new holder and how long can he still be him(her)self before the shard nature takes over.

I doubt it. If you are right, it would mean that whenever a Shard died, all of the investiture that that shard expended would come zooming back. Which means that any investiture on Sel pre D&D splintering wouldn't be there (um, maybe i guess), and that when preservation died, all allomancers would lose their allomancy, as well as the mists disappearing. Or on Roshar, that all of the spren who are splinters of Honor would disappear.

I mean, remember, Investiture is a zero-sum-game. If you get new investiture, it means someone else lost it. If a new vessel meant that he regained all of the investiture, then that would mean divesting from a planet every time a shard died, and we'd have noticed that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, red032 said:

Another thought crossed my mind... if Rayse dies, the shard is not splintered and someone picks up the power, does it means that the board is clear and Odium is free? 
What I mean is: Does the investiture ties only tthe HOLDER, the cognitive part of the symbiotic relatioship (holder + shard)?
If so, at the end of book 5 we can see Rayse defeated and killed. Then the story could progress for the characters trying to forge a new pact with the Holder (it will depend greatly who is this new holder and how long can he still be him(her)self before the shard nature takes over.

Im quite sure that Harmony is unable to leave Scadrial, so no, Odium wont be free if Rayse is killed. That said, that Odium is freed some other way, and receives a new holder is fully possible. 

Also, the WoB that @red032 posted is evidence against Odium being splintered before SA 6. I would still say however that I believe it to be likely that it is splintered in SA10. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, red032 said:

Another thought crossed my mind... if Rayse dies, the shard is not splintered and someone picks up the power, does it means that the board is clear and Odium is free? 

14 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Im quite sure that Harmony is unable to leave Scadrial, so no, Odium wont be free if Rayse is killed. That said, that Odium is freed some other way, and receives a new holder is fully possible. 

@Lord Maelstrom

I think you're all right. 

I think that the mechanism that trapped Rayse in the first place, the Oathpact, is likely bound to Rayse, and not the Shard itself. 

He's been trapped for so long though, that the shard itself is now tied to Braize purely through investing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, The Flash said:

Yeah so maybe this is a good time to bring up something I've been wondering. If someone had lerasium, why in the world wouldn't they want to become a full Mistborn? Why would they ever alloy it with another metal? Far better to get them all. But if anyone were to alloy it, I bet it would be Hoid. 

Burning lerasium permanently changes the user's spiritweb; it's generally suspected that the primary consequence is that the user's Connection to Preservation (Harmony) is greatly increased.  Sanderson has stated that Hoid would be unlikely to utilize magic systems that would give a specific shard additional power over him; this was said specifically with regards to hemalurgy, but it can be extrapolated that he would be cautious of bonding a spren or going too wild with lerasium.  It might be far better for his purposes to have access to a few specific allomantic metals, which would presumably result in less Connection to Preservation, rather than all of them.  As several people have pointed out, being able to burn gold, electrum, atium, cadmium, ect. wouldn't be that much of a benefit to someone as powerful as Hoid already is.  Plus, he could then use the remainder of the bead to alter himself in other ways, potentially becoming an Elantrian, which he previously failed at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Burning lerasium permanently changes the user's spiritweb; it's generally suspected that the primary consequence is that the user's Connection to Preservation (Harmony) is greatly increased.  Sanderson has stated that Hoid would be unlikely to utilize magic systems that would give a specific shard additional power over him; this was said specifically with regards to hemalurgy, but it can be extrapolated that he would be cautious of bonding a spren or going too wild with lerasium.  It might be far better for his purposes to have access to a few specific allomantic metals, which would presumably result in less Connection to Preservation, rather than all of them.  As several people have pointed out, being able to burn gold, electrum, atium, cadmium, ect. wouldn't be that much of a benefit to someone as powerful as Hoid already is.  Plus, he could then use the remainder of the bead to alter himself in other ways, potentially becoming an Elantrian, which he previously failed at.

Actually, this conversation makes me wonder what deraluminum (I can't spell lol) would do in combination with other magic systems. Or, more accurately, what would the external duraluminum do? (I don't remember which one it would be)...

Hm. I wonder if burning aluminum would effect the burner's stormlight... Interesting. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

How could Hoid become an Elantrian with lerasium?

I've seen this argument happen, and I've never understood why people think a physical manifestation of Preservation is a good hack for other systems. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I've seen this argument happen, and I've never understood why people think a physical manifestation of Preservation is a good hack for other systems. 

There'd probably have to be some sort of Identity hijacking, either the id of the to be elantrian or the id of the lerasium. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

How could Hoid become an Elantrian with lerasium?

It would be a hack.  Sanderson has stated that a person who knew what they were doing could achieve results other than becoming a mistborn/misting by using lerasium.  Burning lerasium lets the user alter their own spiritweb and Connection; if you understood the exact underlying mechanism of how that change operates and is applied, you could make it change you in ways that would normally fall outside its design window of creating new mistborn.  This much is confirmed.

It's speculated that lerasium could be used to make someone an elantrian because becoming an elantrian seems to have something to do with Connection and specific aspects of a person's spiritweb.  The plausibility can't be gauged well until we know more about elantrians and more about lerasium, however, it's a pretty good hypothesis for the time being.  I don't know who first proposed the idea (it certainly wasn't me, so don't give me too much credit).  It's possible that lerasium could be used to give someone access to many different magic systems other than the metallic arts.

Recall, the power derived from a godmetal (or any metal for that matter) in allomancy, is not connected to or associated with the Shard that it came from in any directly meaningful way.  The effects of allomantic metals are derived from the interaction of the Investiture with the planet and its people; Shards Invested on Scadrial can manipulate the systems to some degree, but they don't get to decide what each metal does.

Preservation and Ruin didn't decide what lerasium and atium do, and what the metals do is not a reflection of them or their Intents.  The most common example of this principle is that Ruin sucked at seeing the future while Preservation was pretty good at it, yet Ruin's Godmetal allowed people to see the future; Preservation disliked change whereas Ruin was all about it, but Preservation's Godmetal causes permanent profound changes in the user; these effects seem oddly reversed until you recognize that the effect of the metal isn't a reflection of its creator.  Similarly, Harmony doesn't explode when submerged in water. :ph34r:

I can probably find the WoB if there's serious interest; I remember them being kinda long though.

Edited by hwiles
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, The Flash said:

If someone had Lerasium, why in the world wouldn't they want to become a full Mistborn? Why would they ever alloy it with another metal? Far better to get them all. But if anyone were to alloy it, I bet it would be Hoid.

Specialization. And in Hoid's case, his "special luck." He knows where and when to go, and sometimes what to do when he gets there(his only taking one bead instead of both). He tried to become an Elantrian, despite the power only being usable on Sel. He clearly knows things we don't, so if he has a reason to alloy the Lerasium, that's all the validation we need.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

I was retreading way of kings and a line from Hoid about a "beautiful rock that became useless for me stealing it" made me think about the lerasium. Could that be it?

I think the view on that is it's from an unpublished work - spoiler for Liar of Partinel ( first two chapters of which is available on his website)

Spoiler

That its an Aether from Yolen. They are mentioned in the story. Though I'm not sure why it became useless, I think it was something about them bonding to specific people so stealing it meant he couldn't use it himself. I haven't read it in a while though. 

I imagine Dragonsteel comes into it but I haven't read that. 

 The problem with the lerasium idea is how did him stealing it make it worthless? Unless he just means it's now worthless to Scadrians. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I think the view on that is it's from an unpublished work - spoiler for Liar of Partinel ( first two chapters of which is available on his website)

  Hide contents

That its an Aether from Yolen. They are mentioned in the story. Though I'm not sure why it became useless, I think it was something about them bonding to specific people so stealing it meant he couldn't use it himself. I haven't read it in a while though. 

I imagine Dragonsteel comes into it but I haven't read that. 

 The problem with the lerasium idea is how did him stealing it make it worthless? Unless he just means it's now worthless to Scadrians. 

Well if he stole it then he probably burned it

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, winter devotion said:

Well if he stole it then he probably burned it

There is a WoB somewhere about how someone who really knew what he was doing could use Lerasium to connect to any magic system. As well as the fact that the Lerasium alloys allow you to pick and choose what powers you want. So it is possible that the reason he has Allomancy is that he took part of the Lerasium and created alloys, making him a very powerful misting in a couple different metals, then kept the rest to do other stuff with. Or he could have swallowed the whole thing and become Mistborn. This could also explain the final scene of Elantris, where Hoid talks of failing to become an Elantrian. It is possible that he tried using Lerasium to make himself an elantrian. I doubt that he has the knowledge required to use Lerasium in this way, but if anyone did, it would be Hoid.

Edited by Lord Maelstrom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, winter devotion said:

I was retreading way of kings and a line from Hoid about a "beautiful rock that became useless for me stealing it" made me think about the lerasium. Could that be it?

We know that one of his assumed names is Topaz. I thought it had something to do with that, but that it's a story we just don't know yet. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We know that one of his assumed names is Topaz. I thought it had something to do with that, but that it's a story we just don't know yet. 

I didn't know that. As a Steven universe fan, I find that name ridiculously hilarious because of the character there whose name is also Topaz. She is very, uh, not like Hoid. In anyway. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/12/2017 at 8:33 AM, Calderis said:

@Lord Maelstrom

I think you're all right. 

I think that the mechanism that trapped Rayse in the first place, the Oathpact, is likely bound to Rayse, and not the Shard itself. 

He's been trapped for so long though, that the shard itself is now tied to Braize purely through investing.

How does this explain Autonomy?  We learned from Arcanum Unbounded (or at least it was hinted at), that Autonomy likes to travel around and influence other systems, despite having invested enough to create a magic system on Taldain.  Wouldn't that contain her to Taldain?

Another theory, what if Rayse was killed after SA5, everyone celebrates, and then there is a small epilogue showing Autonomy picking up the shard and flying off to take on Harmony.  That would set up the conflict for Mistborn Era 2, and satisfy both theories about who is threatening Harmony: Autonomy, due to the emphasis that Bleeder put on being "free", and Odium, due to the red eyes of the evil kandra.  I kind of like the theory of the challenger being a double shard as well, since it makes Harmony being threatened far more terrifying.

As for what that would do to the SA books, what if the first 5 books did follow the standard "kill the evil bad guy" trope that we saw in Mistborn Era 1, but that the means taken to achieve it are amoral and have obviously far reaching consequences.  A kind of a mix of "Yay, we won!" and "holy crap, what the heck did we do?" type of ending to SA5.  The consequences would come to fruition in SA6-SA10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, winter devotion said:

I didn't know that. As a Steven universe fan, I find that name ridiculously hilarious because of the character there whose name is also Topaz. She is very, uh, not like Hoid. In anyway. 

Yeah, I've been thinking that for a long time now as well. I'm so glad there's another Steven Universe fan on here! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, OscarTheSingingHobo said:

How does this explain Autonomy?  We learned from Arcanum Unbounded (or at least it was hinted at), that Autonomy likes to travel around and influence other systems, despite having invested enough to create a magic system on Taldain.  Wouldn't that contain her to Taldain?

It doesn't... But in trying to answer why there are other reasons that do explain, I stumbled upon a WoB that I think means a new theory. 

Edited by Calderis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/14/2017 at 8:48 AM, Lord Maelstrom said:

There is a WoB somewhere about how someone who really knew what he was doing could use Lerasium to connect to any magic system. As well as the fact that the Lerasium alloys allow you to pick and choose what powers you want.

From Krakow.

Quote

3.47

Q: Did Hoid use the bead of Lerasium to rewrite his spiritual DNA in a way to give him something other than Allomantic powers?

A: His goal was to become an Allomancer.

Q: Yeah and did he use it to create other powers?

A: It could not give powers other than Allomancy.

Q: Because it’s Lerasium?

A: Yes.

Q: So he did burn it and become a Mistborn?

A: Well you have seen him use Allomancy…

Q: It’s creating a lot of confusion.

A: You have actually seen him use Allomancy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/11/2017 at 9:23 AM, Calderis said:

Yes we've been told the ending is "hidden" in what we've already read. I doubt it is something that has been so blatantly shown to us as one of Dalinar's visions. 

"Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red." -TWOK ch9 epigraph

 This is my personal take on the hidden last scene of SA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, kalaxin said:

"Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red." -TWOK ch9 epigraph

 This is my personal take on the hidden last scene of SA

You're not alone in that. I personally can't accept an implied ending to a 10 book epic that is either completely lacking closure, or an outright defeat. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...