red032

Odium free at the end of Stormlight

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Stormlight Archive is not supposed to be the end of the main storyline on Cosmere. For this very storyline to progress into the epic finale we all are eager to see, the main antagonist, the Shard of Odium, will have to be realeased from its investiture prision on the Roshar System.
So, at one point or another (possibly on its resolution) Odium will be set free.
The question is... will the final desolation happens, will be ther a cataclismic event that will destroy the planet and our favorite characters will flee via worldhopping?
I would like to hear your toughts about that.  

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Interesting idea. Sounds as good as any at this point. I think he will follow in the footsteps of Robert Jordan's series and Odium will be bounded again at the end of book 10. I think early on in book 6 he will be free of his prison on Braize, and will cause all sorts of problems until the last book. 

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Honestly, I don't see Odium being the main antagonist of the Cosmere. Currently, I don't see there being any one antagonist. He is in opposition to Hoid and the people of Roshar, but I don't see him being the main enemy of the Cosmere. If I'm not mistaken there's still whatever Harmony is keeping at bay... There are multiple potential antagonists for the Cosmere, and I don't see any one of them being the singular enemy.

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13 minutes ago, Jedal said:

Honestly, I don't see Odium being the main antagonist of the Cosmere. Currently, I don't see there being any one antagonist. He is in opposition to Hoid and the people of Roshar, but I don't see him being the main enemy of the Cosmere. If I'm not mistaken there's still whatever Harmony is keeping at bay... There are multiple potential antagonists for the Cosmere, and I don't see any one of them being the singular enemy.

But Odium is presented as the Big Threat. Three Shards splintered already. I fail to see another threat that can hunt and kill Shards. The pieces are being deployed on the board and I think that the game has not even start yet... 

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I have to agree with @Jedal

In the story of the Cosmere, an obvious threat such as Odium this early in the game, when we still don't even know all the players, means we're meant to view Odium as the main threat in order to allow a more insidious threat later on. 

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Roshar will be destroyed. This is basically confirmed by deduction.

1. Bradon wouldn't want the same planet-arc as Mistborn.

2. Sel and Threnody have shown us what happens after a shard dies. We need the 'how' of it answered.

3. We know we have seen the ending of Roshar-Saga somewhere in Book 1 or Book 2. (WOB)

4. We saw a vision of the final destruction of the planet.

Conclusion.

5. Roshar will be destroyed. It is the most obvious, most clear, most definite vision we have seen thus far. Brandon can't keep having the good guys steal a victory. He has to kill a planet and sadly Roshar is the only planet on the chopping-block. It will go and something will be shattered. 

 

Now, there are many ways this could happen. Maybe Cultivation 'cultivates' the planet in order to take a shot at Odium, destroying Roshar in the process? Maybe Odium flat-out wins but the majority of characters escape to a new planet as refugees? Maybe Ambition returns after Odium is slain and Ambition takes over as the villain? Maybe Hold "watches this world burn" just as he threatened to do if necessary?

I don't know how Roshar goes down, but we know that it will almost assuredly. I know some people don't agree, but honestly Brandon basically has told us this much. Some people just don't want to believe it since we are used to deus ex machina so far. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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So here is some food for thought regarding if Odium is the the main villian of the cosmere:

QUESTION

Was the shattering of Adonalsium done, for the forces to attack the Anti-Adonalsium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You’re focusing too much on the idea of the anti-adonalsium. What was really asked is “is there a force that opposes Adonalsium” and it left me a lot of wiggle room. In other words, the people who killed it was a force, or any person who opposed Adonalsium you could say is a force. What they were trying to get was a “devil” but that assumes Adonalsium is a more Christian-style God, and I have not confirmed any of that.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1153

What I gather from this is there are forces that oppose Adolnalsium out there and not to make the assumption that Adolnalsium is the equivalent of a Judeo-Christian God. Perhaps one of the opposing forces will be the main antagonist?

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4 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

So here is some food for thought regarding if Odium is the the main villian of the cosmere:

QUESTION

Was the shattering of Adonalsium done, for the forces to attack the Anti-Adonalsium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You’re focusing too much on the idea of the anti-adonalsium. What was really asked is “is there a force that opposes Adonalsium” and it left me a lot of wiggle room. In other words, the people who killed it was a force, or any person who opposed Adonalsium you could say is a force. What they were trying to get was a “devil” but that assumes Adonalsium is a more Christian-style God, and I have not confirmed any of that.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1153

What I gather from this is there are forces that oppose Adolnalsium out there and not to make the assumption that Adolnalsium is the equivalent of a Judeo-Christian God. Perhaps one of the opposing forces will be the main antagonist?

That force was the group of people who are now the shards. The ones who killed him. At least that's what the WoBs imply

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1 minute ago, The Flash said:

That force was the group of people who are now the shards. The ones who killed him. At least that's what the WoBs imply

He said that the now shards that opposed him was "a force" not "the force". You could be right though. Lots of ways to interpret his quote.

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@teknopathetic as a self contained story that Brandon does not want his readers to have to read the rest of the Cosmere to enjoy, I just can't buy it. 

A 10 book epic that ends in the destruction of the world would be viewed by a reader who is only reading SA as a betrayal of trust, and a disappointment due to an all out loss.

Yes we've been told the ending is "hidden" in what we've already read. I doubt it is something that has been so blatantly shown to us as one of Dalinar's visions. 

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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

@teknopathetic as a self contained story that Brandon does not want his readers to have to read the rest of the Cosmere to enjoy, I just can't buy it. 

A 10 book epic that ends in the destruction of the world would be viewed by a reader who is only reading SA as a betrayal of trust, and a disappointment due to an all out loss.

Yes we've been told the ending is "hidden" in what we've already read. I doubt it is something that has been so blatantly shown to us as one of Dalinar's visions. 

I think that it's possible that Roshar might be wasted. But not destroyed. And if it gets wasted, it'll be restored. 

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First off, I doubt Odium is the main antagonist of the Cosmere. I think whoever holds Odium will be the antagonist of Stormlight, but not necessarily the major antagonist of the Cosmere. I think that it's more likely that it is Harmony, Hoid, Bavadin, or someone we have not seen yet. 

28 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Maybe Ambition returns after Odium is slain and Ambition takes over as the villain? Maybe Hold "watches this world burn" just as he threatened to do if necessary?

I don't know how Roshar goes down, but we know that it will almost assuredly. I know some people don't agree, but honestly Brandon basically has told us this much. Some people just don't want to believe it since we are used to deus ex machina so far. 

I doubt that Roshar will end up destroyed. It is one of the most unique planets in the Cosmere, it would be a shame to see it go. And furthermore, Ambition is splintered, and I doubt someone will put it together off-screen. Also, most of the things in the Cosmere arent really Deus Ex Machina IMO. The ones I can think of are Szeths revival and (Mistborn both eras spoilers):

Spoiler

Wax being revived in BoM and maybe Vin drawing the Mists against TLR.

 

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I agree that Roshar can't be destroyed BS has said more then once that each series is meant to be self contained. We here at the 17th shard focus too much on the cosmere as a whole and often fail to see the SA as an individual story. but as an individual story the ending must be a positive one... not necessarily happy, just positive. I also expect the ending will give the survivors hope for a future unburdened by the  threat of another desolation.

 

Following is my thoughts only:

My guess for an ending scene will be Dalinar overlooking a desolated city just as Nahoden was during one of the visions. Some but not all of the Radients may be in other places (Kaladin is back home picking up his fathers practice) some will have died (both his sons). Odium has been splintered. I don't believe we will see a re-binding a la WoT. But he will be permanently out of the picture. The world has been desolated and the efforts to rebuild will be the new focus. 

As for Hoid he will likely be seen as part bad guy due to his willingness to sacrifice the world to defeat Odium, and this desolation may worse due to his actions, but he will be the "adviser" from Dalinar's vision recommending Dalinar to follow Nahoden's course to write a book of some sort .

Any Odium Wins scenario would leave the SA as incomplete waiting for the Mistborn Era 4 and this doesn't accomplish BS's stated goals. and any planet is no longer habitable and mass refugee crisis will bring the SA into the rest of the cosmere to heavily.

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Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see Odium killed, and his shard taken up by another antagonist. The way I see it, Odium's reluctance to take up other shards makes it hard for him to really become a bigger threat than he is. He really is at the height of his potential, especially with Harmony in the picture, being close to twice as powerful as odium.

So, what I see happening in the general Cosmere plot is another "Evil" shard killing Odium and taking up his shard. Thus you would have an Evil Shard, but a much greater threat than Odium, since this shard would actually be able to eventually completely rule the world.

How this fits in with the SA plotline, I'm not sure. But I think you might see Odium's death here.

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Actually, going by your reasoning, the Cosmere began with the shattering of Adolnasium.  Therefore, would it be logical at the end of this vast epic that Adolnasium is somehow restored?  We have already seen two Shards coexisting within a single holder (in the form of Harmony).  Perhaps he can somehow absorb all of the remaining Shards and their splinters?

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I disagree that Stormlight will be totally self contained.
There´s too much characters from another books to believe that and a 10 book serie dealing directly with Odium MUST have a greater impact on the Cosmere storyline.
 

 

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Yes Roshar can be self contained, but Brandon runs the risk of mimicking the Mistborn Shard plot too much if the good guys stop the evil shard just in time. Kaladin and Shallan defeat Odium in the end and the world is reshaped and happy? Really? Would we accept that? More importantly, would Brandon be engaged in such a plot knowing that he had recently done that plot? He doesn't want to be repetitive,and a desire not to be derivative is totally compatible with Roshar being "self contained" as a series. 

Roshar is a doomed world. They lost the dawn shards, many potential radiants have been killed already, there is the Everstorm, the radiants are insane, someone important is dead, Cultivation is likely depressed, the kingdoms have been at war for a long time, the listeners have their gods back, etc etc.

 This book can't be about winning, but by deciding the most honourable way to lose.Winning would be interesting, but losing would be compelling. Stormlight has been all about loss and the strength to continue on despite that pain - Journey before destination. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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45 minutes ago, red032 said:

I disagree that Stormlight will be totally self contained.
There´s too much characters from another books to believe that and a 10 book serie dealing directly with Odium MUST have a greater impact on the Cosmere storyline.

The crossover characters are all minor roles that make sense even if you don't know them from their respective books. 

Of course the events will effect the Cosmere. The events of Era 1 Mistborn are arguably the single largest Cosmere relevant events we've seen in a book, but you don't need to read anything else to understand them. 

Stormlight is a stand alone story as stated repeatedly by Brandon. It will have vast Consequences for the Cosmere for those who follow it, but will be a complete and self contained story for those who don't.

@teknopathetic I will agree to disagree. A 10 book series that ends in a complete loss is simply a book series designed to alienate readers. Doing it without making the Cosmere and the stories implications front and center is self defeating. 

Edited by Calderis
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@red032 Well, that's what Sanderson has stated as his goal and, almost more importantly, what his publishers and editors, by default, like to insist on.  I don't have access to hard statistics, but I would wager that most people who read stormlight archive are more-or-less unaware of the Cosmere at large.  I'm really interested in seeing how Nightblood's presence on Roshar is explained without making any outright references to Nalthis and Awakening, but...for the time being, the first 5 Stormlight books (and maybe all 10) are supposed to form a coherent and self-contained story that a reader can enjoy and understand without any supplementary material.

None of this is ironclad, as Sanderson can always just change his mind and start tying in other books like crazy, but if the story remains self-contained, some basic rules should be obeyed:

  1. The story's ultimate conclusion has to make sense without referencing outside material:
    1. Odium getting free of Roshar would be unsatisfying because non-Cosmere aware fans would probably be confused about why he was in Greater Roshar to begin with and why Tanavast (apparently) wanted to keep him there.  The whole cycle of desolations would feel like a waste of time and life.
    2. Humanity on Roshar can't be wiped out.  The planet can be destroyed, the parshendi could conceivably be extincted, and any number of the main characters can be killed off, but some remainder of the population has to be saved in some capacity.  Having the good guys lose completely, evil triumph, and mankind annihilated is, in general, just bad writing.  We didn't see Aona and Skai die because it didn't make for a "good" story; The bad guy broke in, burned everything to the ground, spit on the ashes, and left.
  2. The cycle of desolations probably has to end:
    1. The desolations are presented as a huge problem in the eyes of the reader; concluding the series without establishing some way that they can be stopped, or at least mitigated greatly, will feel empty.
    2. Wheel of Time Spoilers: 
      Spoiler

      In WoT, they got around this issue by making the time between "Dark One Breaking Free and Killing Everyone" events extremely long and having the main character experience a moment of divine clarity at the end in which he saw that mankind deserved the right to make, struggle with, and fight to fix their own mistakes.  The "Spare the Dark One and Let the Shadow War Repeat Itself" thing didn't go over great then and it probably wouldn't go over great now...

       

  3. Odium probably has to die:
    1. If someone doesn't kill him, he'll keep fighting.  Wounding or sealing him away would probably feel like an unnecessary cop-out.
    2. If he just "leaves the system," readers who aren't Cosmere-fans might be left confused about why he was there in the first place, making the whole series seem pointless and arbitrary.

The only plausible scenario I can think of that would allow Odium to escape would be if the Roshar (the planet) ends up destroyed, and human beings on Roshar make an exodus to another planet in the system...Anyway, I guess this is more of an opinion piece at this point, apologies.

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8 minutes ago, hwiles said:

The only plausible scenario I can think of that would allow Odium to escape would be if the Roshar (the planet) ends up destroyed, and human beings on Roshar make an exodus to another planet in the system...Anyway, I guess this is more of an opinion piece at this point, apologies.

And unless the awareness of other worlds in the system and the possibility of an exodus grows greatly in the mind of the average reader than this option becomes deus ex machina in and of itself. 

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17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And unless the awareness of other worlds in the system and the possibility of an exodus grows greatly in the mind of the average reader than this option becomes deus ex machina in and of itself. 

Stormlight has been pushing the existence of other dimensions (to the average reader Shadesmaar probably looks like a dimension)  and planets (Braize). Plus, the book has put in important artifacts from other worlds. Warbreaker is a prequel to Stormlight according to Brandon, so I think the idea of other worlds and shards will be made extremely clear to the average reader. Brandon can't ignore Nathalis in the narrative of the Stormlight. 

And has there ever been a magic system better suited for world hopping and exploring how worlds connect? 

Exodus is extremely likely, especially knowing that the humans are liked already from another planet. The series is already about exodus.  Isn't the entire goal of the series to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls and leave Roshar in general? 

Edited by teknopathetic
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9 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Exodus is extremely likely, especially knowing that the humans are liked already from another planet. 

And again, the strongest link here is the tranquiline halls, and the Iriali Long Path. 

To the Average readers these are unexplored religious beliefs that add a nice flavor, but no real substance. The actual existence and ability to reach other planets needs to be made plausible. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I think it would be a stretch unless we see fabrial tech advance substantially and more importantly visibly. 

And yes, Warbreaker was written as a prequel, specifically for the characters of Vasher and Nightblood. I think they were made for the Cosmere aware though, and again are not expected reading. 

Edited by Calderis
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16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And unless the awareness of other worlds in the system and the possibility of an exodus grows greatly in the mind of the average reader than this option becomes deus ex machina in and of itself. 

Exactly, that's why I think Odium surviving is less likely. The plot structure is already pretty dense; squeezing in enough build up and revelations about other planets to make an exodus seem plausible, without making it feel like the heros just gave up, might be impractical. As an aside, I'd argue that that scenario would be more similar to the conclusion of HoA than splintering Odium, which would actually be a new type of conclusion for Cosmere books. In HoA humanity was almost completely wiped out and almost all the heroes died. Hopefully this isn't completely repeated in stormlight...

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Just now, hwiles said:

Exactly, that's why I think Odium surviving is less likely. The plot structure is already pretty dense; squeezing in enough build up and revelations about other planets to make an exodus seem plausible, without making it feel like the heros just gave up, might be impractical. As an aside, I'd argue that that scenario would be more similar to the conclusion of HoA than splintering Odium, which would actually be a new type of conclusion for Cosmere books. In HoA humanity was almost completely wiped out and almost all the heroes died. Hopefully this isn't completely repeated in stormlight...

I agree completely. 

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There are several things that could happen to Odium in order to make the story different from Mistborn Era 1:

1. Odium frees himself, kills Cultivation and leaves Roshar. Rayse has no interest in the humans; he wants to take out Shards. I believe that SA could contain a quick explanation of what a Shard is, and let every reader be aware of the fact that Odiums goal is to kill them all. In order to make this plot cooler, Cultivation could be unwilling to sacrifice herself for Roshar, leading to one of the Radiants having to kill her, ascend, and sacrifice him/herself in order to have Odium leave.

2. Rayse dies, and someone else picks up Odium and leaves with the Shard in order to destroy it/ go as far away as possible before being consumed by the hatred of the Shard.

3. Odium is splintered. Most likely in my opinion, and as pointed out by @hwiles, it would be a conclusion we have not seen before. 

4. Hoid does something wierd to Odium which fits his own agenda, and also solves the problems on Roshar.

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