Top 10 theories going into Oathbringer

[Calderis]

@maxal I have to assume that you're post is addressing more than just my that you quoted. Because you brought that into specifics that I most definitely never said. 

I don't care who dies. As long as it's a character/characters that the readers have reason to be emotionally invested in, to show that the risks are real and not just a backdrop to the staged play. 

If the only ones that matter to you are Kaladin Shallan and Adolin, then for your sake I hope they survive, but I think that that shows over investment in one area of the story. 

Waiting until a character's story is "completed" to kill them off is a path that creates problems in itself. When an author refuses to kill anyone until their story arc is complete it becomes recognized that certain characters are safe until the point you can say "oh, they get to die now." 

Life doesn't work that way. Death comes with things unfinished, and that in itself can drive the other characters and the story in unexpected directions. 

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@maxal I have to assume that you're post is addressing more than just my that you quoted. Because you brought that into specifics that I most definitely never said. 

I don't care who dies. As long as it's a character/characters that the readers have reason to be emotionally invested in, to show that the risks are real and not just a backdrop to the staged play. 

If the only ones that matter to you are Kaladin Shallan and Adolin, then for your sake I hope they survive, but I think that that shows over investment in one area of the story. 

Waiting until a character's story is "completed" to kill them off is a path that creates problems in itself. When an author refuses to kill anyone until their story arc is complete it becomes recognized that certain characters are safe until the point you can say "oh, they get to die now." 

Life doesn't work that way. Death comes with things unfinished, and that in itself can drive the other characters and the story in unexpected directions. 

Oh sorry. Not all of my post was meant directly to you as a poster. It was meant to address this key point which is should characters die or not and if so, who. I felt the conversation had a much broader sense as it is a topic which has come back from times around. People argue main characters have to die, but they will generally name those they either dislike (Shallan) or those they consider to be the most expendable out of not having a function (Adolin). Very few people argue Kaladin should die because it would increase drama as he does come across as having plot immunity. My overall point is while some characters can realistically die, others not and those others tend to be the major protagonists as they are the ones with a story to tell.

Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin matters to me because they are the characters I am reading, they have a story to tell. I don't see it as investment within only one aspect of the story: I read books because I enjoy reading characters. If a story fails to present me characters I enjoy reading or removes all the ones I like to replace them with ones I like less, then my investment within said story is likely to severely decrease. A lot of readers have similar take on stories and would rather characters they are invested in not to die. As I said, killing the characters your readers enjoy the most is very dangerous for an author, even GRRM didn't try to do it. Thinking you can replace the protagonists your readers have come to love to read by another cast is also very tricky, GRRM also did it in book 4 which comes across as a weak book among fans. Of course, Brandon is planning a time jump which allows him to do it better, but killing off his entire first half cast is really not a good idea. 

In the end it comes down to which reading experience we are looking for: when I read Brandon, I don't expect characters to die in the middle of their story arc. Even GRRM didn't kill characters being in the middle of their stories. I expect characters to die when it matters they die, when it makes for a better story and I currently can't see it for the three I mentioned. I can see it being a better story for someone like Dalinar to die, eventually, but not those I mentioned. That's the perk of reading a long-lasting series, you don't have to learn how to re-invest yourself within new characters each book you pick up, having to go through the set up with new protagonists every book: you can watch your character evolve throughout longer time period. If they die because "the world is dangerous", then it removes the perks of reading long-lasting fantasy. And well, there will always be characters with complete plot immunity, say Lift and Jasnah. We know they aren't dying. We don't know if Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin will survive, but providing they do, as I hope they will, then I will not think I lost on the drama because I would not know they survived until they really do. Brandon said he would kill characters, I don't know whom, but I hope it isn't one of the three I mentioned. Those three have the potential to carry the whole narrative by themselves, the replacements characters, not. We can't lose the trio, not when they are just starting to get to know each other better and in profit of whom? No other characters have shown the same potential for inter-character inter-action, for teaming up, for developing a strong bond, for just being the active characters in the story. 

 

[Toaster Retribution]

@maxal About GRRM and killing characters mid-arc (ASoIaF):

Spoiler

You could argue that Robb and Catelyn Stark and Quentyn Martell still had stories left to tell (heck, Robb even plans an upcoming battles two or three chapters before his death). But they died, and in the Stark case, it definitely moved the story forward. In Quentyns case, we don't really know yet, but I trust Martin here. 

In addition, you could also argue (although with weaker arguments) that Robert could have had a more complete arc as well. And arguments could probably be made for other people in the story too.

 

[discorat]

On 8/12/2017 at 8:21 PM, maxal said:

I agree to disagree with you because all readers are different  We aren't all looking for the same experience whenever reading a book. While I don't mind characters dying within GoT, because the story has been built onto this premise, I do mind it when I am reading Brandon Sanderson. Why? Because his writing style is overly more optimistic and relies on the idea greatness can await after many hits and bumps. Other authors, such as Robin Hobb, often take the bittersweet ending where the hero doesn't get resolution or if he gets it, it often is unsatisfying. Brandon? I expect the heroes to win, but I expect to do it with a twist. I expect things I didn't consider to ultimately matter and if main characters die, I don't expect it to be done within great tragedy. I expect it to be done with melancholia, feeling we have reached the end of a journey. I don't expect Brandon to slaughter Adolin just to create a shock moment: this really isn't his style.

Hence, my enjoyment in reading Brandon is absolutely not tied to his ability to kill or not to kill his protagonists. He might keep them all alive, baring Szeth and Eshonai, and I wouldn't mind one bit. If he wants to kill characters, he can off side characters such as Elhokar, Navani or any of the bridgemen. Killing Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin would however definitely diminish my ability to enjoy the story as no other characters currently proposed in replacement as, IMHO, as interesting. Dalinar is one I am partial about, probably because I do expect him to die.

That was beautifully said

[maxal]

37 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@maxal About GRRM and killing characters mid-arc (ASoIaF):

  Reveal hidden contents

You could argue that Robb and Catelyn Stark and Quentyn Martell still had stories left to tell (heck, Robb even plans an upcoming battles two or three chapters before his death). But they died, and in the Stark case, it definitely moved the story forward. In Quentyns case, we don't really know yet, but I trust Martin here. 

In addition, you could also argue (although with weaker arguments) that Robert could have had a more complete arc as well. And arguments could probably be made for other people in the story too.

 

Spoiler

 

Technically, Robb Stark never was a protagonist: he was a supporting character and as such, always expendable. Once Robb died, keeping Caitlin alive made little sense, so while the scene was powerful and heart-wrenching, it is false to say GRRM killed a protagonist within the middle of his story arc. Quentin's entire story arc was to die which is why many readers wondered why we bothered reading him.

Arguably the TV series transformed Robb Stark into a protagonist and made his death more meaningful, but the scene within the book wasn't as traumatic.

 

These are my views anyway. GRRM has not killed major beloved protagonists such as Dany or Arya. Of course, everyone is willing to disagree.

[Nathrangking]

I would love to see Nale have a "heart to heart" with Taravangian.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Nathrangking

[Toaster Retribution]

56 minutes ago, maxal said:

  Hide contents

 

Technically, Robb Stark never was a protagonist: he was a supporting character and as such, always expendable. Once Robb died, keeping Caitlin alive made little sense, so while the scene was powerful and heart-wrenching, it is false to say GRRM killed a protagonist within the middle of his story arc. Quentin's entire story arc was to die which is why many readers wondered why we bothered reading him.

Arguably the TV series transformed Robb Stark into a protagonist and made his death more meaningful, but the scene within the book wasn't as traumatic.

 

These are my views anyway. GRRM has not killed major beloved protagonists such as Dany or Arya. Of course, everyone is willing to disagree.

We'll agree to disagree then :-) (even though you have good and valid points, as usual). I doubt we should derail this thread further with off-topic GoT discussion anyway. 

[Nathrangking]

Shallan discovers the cause of the recreance.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Shallan discovers the cause of the recreance.

I don't think we're getting that until book 5 if we get it in the first half. 

[Nathrangking]

Perhaps . Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll give us  some hints.

[Stormsurfer]

Personally I would love to see them refer to the other characters from scradriel like wax and wayne

[WhiteLeeopard]

Top Oathbringer theory: 17th Shard will examine every sentence 20x over, while wringing out all its possible meaning. 

[maxal]

On the theme of "things Shallan will find in Urithiru": a way to effectively imprison Radiants...  which obviously works very well for Shardbearers. She will mention her discovery never thinking it will be put to good use... to lock Adolin in 

[Ciridae]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

On the theme of "things Shallan will find in Urithiru": a way to effectively imprison Radiants...  which obviously works very well for Shardbearers. She will mention her discovery never thinking it will be put to good use... to lock Adolin in 

I think Urithiru might even have radiant prisons. With fabrial elevators and Oathgates, I think a fabrial to keep a radiants from absorbing Stormlight and an uncuttable cell should be doable. I'm thinking a cell made from whatever the Shardblade guards and/or Oathgate keyholes are made out of. 

[Ytsken]

On 13-8-2017 at 4:43 PM, maxal said:

I still have a hard time finding much enthusiasm towards reading a Jasnah/Renarin/Lift centered main narrative with incursions from Taln/Shalash. I'd rather keep on reading about Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin with bigger roles being given to other characters

Where does WOB say that the first 5 flashback characters won't be in the other 5 books?

Me, I've always felt that book 5 will end with the decision of (most) of our main characters taking up the place of the by now corrupted Heralds in order to give the world more time to prepare for the final Desolation. Then by the time book 6 begins we'll be 15 years further on, and all our surviving heroes/Heralds will return after having been tortured by Odium for all those years and find out exactly what has happened... did the world indeed prepare itself? Or has it gone completely to pieces and was their sacrifice for naught? 

Wouldn't it be doubly exciting to read the reactions of those who did agree to be tortured (Kaladin and Shallan) vs those who did not (Adolin/Lift)? 

 

[Calderis]

@Ytsken the back five is set 10-15 years after the end of book 5 and Brandon has said that much like Jasnah, Lift and Renarin are involved but more background/supporting characters, they will step forward in the back 5 to be the focus and our current mains (the ones who survived anyway) will step back into that supporting role.

Edit: not the clearest WoB, but the best I could find for now. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1140#4

Quote

QUESTION

[??? Presumably about the interval between Stormlight 5 and 6]

BRANDON SANDERSON

I can't tell you too much without giving you spoilers. It's not a jump like Mistborn. It's more like ten or fifteen years. It will be the same characters, but some of the main characters will fade to be more minor characters, and some of the minor characters will fade to be more major characters. For example, Lift is one of the main characters for the second part, and Jasnah, and Renarin, and such.

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Calderis

[maxal]

On 8/17/2017 at 4:53 AM, Ciridae said:

I think Urithiru might even have radiant prisons. With fabrial elevators and Oathgates, I think a fabrial to keep a radiants from absorbing Stormlight and an uncuttable cell should be doable. I'm thinking a cell made from whatever the Shardblade guards and/or Oathgate keyholes are made out of. 

Which reminds me of this horrible thread where we discussed all the various way to efficiently imprison a Shardbearer or shall I interpret it as: "The various ways to torture Adolin going into the next book". 

12 hours ago, Ytsken said:

Where does WOB say that the first 5 flashback characters won't be in the other 5 books?

Me, I've always felt that book 5 will end with the decision of (most) of our main characters taking up the place of the by now corrupted Heralds in order to give the world more time to prepare for the final Desolation. Then by the time book 6 begins we'll be 15 years further on, and all our surviving heroes/Heralds will return after having been tortured by Odium for all those years and find out exactly what has happened... did the world indeed prepare itself? Or has it gone completely to pieces and was their sacrifice for naught? 

Wouldn't it be doubly exciting to read the reactions of those who did agree to be tortured (Kaladin and Shallan) vs those who did not (Adolin/Lift)? 

Brandon did say some characters would have an ongoing arc within both half. He also confirmed those who'll survive will be around, but their role will have changed and the story won't focus on them anymore.

For the rest, I would think Adolin would be the first one to volunteer because he doesn't seem to value his own life much, but he would also be the first one they would all team-up to prevent from going there. This being said, I am not sure there will be an ascending story arc: the second half is supposed to have much Herald actions, but it seems to be "existing Heralds" action. I would find it anti-climatic if they end the story by just forming a new oathpact with new people. The cycle has to be broken, forever. 

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Ytsken the back five is set 10-15 years after the end of book 5 and Brandon has said that much like Jasnah, Lift and Renarin are involved but more background/supporting characters, they will step forward in the back 5 to be the focus and our current mains (the ones who survived anyway) will step back into that supporting role.

Try as hard as I can, I can't muster much excitement for it. I really do not picture Jasnah, Renarin and Lift as the sole story drivers.

Jasnah, I could see her endorse a role similar to Dalinar within the first arc, so I guess this would work. 

Renarin isn't an action driver nor a decision maker: he's a reactive character who seldom talks nor share information which isn't a show stopped in itself, but these characteristics need to be offset by others to make him a pro-active lead. I'm thinking how Lirael within Garth Nix's Old World series, a character having a similar profile to Renarin who turns out into an engaging lead as her curiosity, her sense of adventure and her craftiness make her a rather pro-active character, even if very secretive and self-depreciative. Renarin unfortunately doesn't have these characteristics, so I am really at lost at thinking how he could lead the narrative. I find him more suitable as a supporting character, one who evolves within the shadow up until he gets one moment to shine, like Neville in Harry Potter.

Lift is too illogical and non-cohesive to be an interesting lead. She works in a short novella or as a supporting character, but as one of the major leads within the story, as the next Kaladin? No. I don't see it. She too frazzled and no, it isn't all about her age, it is just how she is. She will probably always be this character who does what she wants, but who always seem to do right. I guess many readers enjoy those characters and I wouldn't mind her if her didn't mean we are about to lose the others.

My problem also is I can't see how the next leads are going to form a cohesive action oriented team able to steer the narrative. Within the first arc, already we have the Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin team which is forming up and looks like it will turn into a fun to read trio, independently of whom ends up with whom. I love this dynamic, but sadly I am not seeing with the next leads. Hopefully I am wrong or Brandon will change his plans.

[WhiteLeeopard]

I have always felt that if indeed the characters decide someone must go to be tortured to Braize in the Herald's place to give the world time to prepare, it would be Szeth. It makes sense within his character, he will do whatever honor/the law demands of him, and he always expected to be tortured in the afterlife anyway. To add to that, we know he is one of the few characters that barely changed from the original outline. So, what does he have to do that is so clear, which was always going to happen? Sacrificing himself in a heartbeat to give time for the world makes complete sense, besides he is already insane, so it isn't as if his noggin will be too different afterwards .

[maxal]

33 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I have always felt that if indeed the characters decide someone must go to be tortured to Braize in the Herald's place to give the world time to prepare, it would be Szeth. It makes sense within his character, he will do whatever honor/the law demands of him, and he always expected to be tortured in the afterlife anyway. To add to that, we know he is one of the few characters that barely changed from the original outline. So, what does he have to do that is so clear, which was always going to happen? Sacrificing himself in a heartbeat to give time for the world makes complete sense, besides he is already insane, so it isn't as if his noggin will be too different afterwards .

I would actually enjoy reading such a story. It would make his character more sympathetic.

[Nathrangking]

Venli working to bring back all of the forms of power. She will be met with resistance by Eshonai who breaks free of stormform.

[Lemonelon]

So, we know there will be a big giant type of thing Jasnah has to fight. I think the red storm is going to awaken some of the fauna which hides from the storms. Most of the voidbringers where rock shape things, and I just found a death rattle which hints at this too. Will be interesting to see if I'm on the right track...

[Penumbra]

I havent pre-theorized nearly enough about this book but some random hopes/ideas I have are:

1. Pattern will get a kick out of Adolin constantly lying to cover his deed. Shallan will realize what is going on.

2. Dalinar more or less disowns Adolin when he learns what he did, Adolin doesnt deal well with it. I foresee a Dark Side Adolin downwards spiral. 

3. Zahel will drop some info about Dalinars late wife. Possibly to Renarin

 

 

[twentymonsters]

On 8/23/2017 at 4:39 AM, Penumbra said:

2. Dalinar more or less disowns Adolin when he learns what he did, Adolin doesnt deal well with it. I foresee a Dark Side Adolin downwards spiral. 

Adolin is definitely going to be showing a dark side in this book. I'm almost positive that Sadeas' death will have major consequences for Dalinar. If other people try to grasp for power, they could easily blame Sadeas death on Dalinar. 

Because there is no evidence that Adolin is a Knights Radiant (that I'm aware of), I can almost assume that he may get envious of Shallan, Dalinar, and even Renarin. For once, he'll almost feel useless. All of the people around him are slowly becoming the heroes he'd always thought he was.

I'm almost positive that the guilt of possibly squandering Dalinar's reputation in this "new age" and his jealousy of people in the Knight's Radiant will lead him to do some erratic and unpredictable things. I'm honestly pumped and am excited to see how his relationship with Renarin, Shallan, and Dalinar change and evolve. 

[hypatia]

I'll try to find some coherent things:

-In the last part of WoR we get some places of interest:

Kholinar, Jah Keved, Azir and the Purelake - all are mentioned, partly as a reaction to Dalinar's warning. I think our new Radiants will go there seperatly to unite them.

-Kholinar: Kaladin is allready on his way, but this is the time and the place Elhokar has to go. And Kaladin will teach him to lead, because of Tien.

-Jah Keved: A new king, who better than Dalinar himself? (And I really want him to go to the man who wants to kill him). Perhaps with Shallan to look for her family.

-Azir: Adolin, to get him out of Alethkar and to Lift.

-Purelake: Since there is a plague, someone with the ability to heal - Renarin

 

-Jasnah: The moment she gets her full mental capacity back, she'll try to chain herself to Hoid / AKA: The Man with ANSWERS.I think also an atheist can't withstand someone who speaks about "god" as an old buddy.

-The Everstorm will do exactly what Gavilar had planed - it/he will bring back the ability to transform for the Parshmen.

-In Urithiru Shallan will locate the places of the unknown Oathgates, especially Akinah.

It's not that much, but I try ...

[Toaster Retribution]

7 minutes ago, hypatia said:

I'll try to find some coherent things:

-In the last part of WoR we get some places of interest:

Kholinar, Jah Keved, Azir and the Purelake - all are mentioned, partly as a reaction to Dalinar's warning. I think our new Radiants will go there seperatly to unite them.

-Kholinar: Kaladin is allready on his way, but this is the time and the place Elhokar has to go. And Kaladin will teach him to lead, because of Tien.

-Jah Keved: A new king, who better than Dalinar himself? (And I really want him to go to the man who wants to kill him). Perhaps with Shallan to look for her family.

-Azir: Adolin, to get him out of Alethkar and to Lift.

-Purelake: Since there is a plague, someone with the ability to heal - Renarin

I doubt some of these for several reasons. Jah Keved already has a king, first and foremost. It is Taravangian. I also doubt that Adolin will go to Azir. I think he will spend a big chunk of the book with his father, before maybe being exiled.

I also doubt that Renarin will be sent to the Purelake. Dalinar will want to keep him close and protect him. Renarin will most likely not have many, if any POVs, until the back five. 

Kaladin and Elhokar ending up in Kholinar is good though, and has a big chance of happening.