Question

Hi, 

I was just wondering how the power of Fullborns would scale with regards to Heralds. 

In particular, how would Kelsier or Spook (who are similarly powerful) match up against a Herald? Assume that both Fullborns have access to all 16 Metals (in unlimited quantities), but no God Metals, and that Herald has access to unlimited Stormlight and is one with offensive capabilities.

Furthermore, how would The Lord Ruler have matched up against a Herald? All 10 Heralds?

Thanks

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43 answers to this question

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I think between gold compounding and steel compounding alone, not even considering all of the other powers, a Fullborn would kill any Herald without an issue. 

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Yeah, a Fullborn is, for all intents and purposes, The Lord Ruler. I find it difficult to picture a fight that TLR falls to any single Herald.

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13 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

While I also agree that in a single fight a Fullborn would definitely win,I think the Herald in question could potentially be able to wear them down over the course of time through multiple resurrections.

that is presumably true, especially since the question specifically said no god metals.  without Atium to store age, the herald sort of wins by default just by outlasting the fullborn...or at least by coming back each time

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29 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think between gold compounding and steel compounding alone, not even considering all of the other powers, a Fullborn would kill any Herald without an issue. 

There was another thread on this a while back, or on something like this anyway, and as I recall the comparison I used is that a fullborn could, using steel, iron, and pewter compounding hit with the speed strength and actual weight of a freight train.  it is hard to imagine even a herald surviving that.  maybe if the fight were happening inside of a highstorm, where the herald would have access to almost limitless investiture.

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While I also agree that in a single fight a Fullborn would definitely win,I think the Herald in question could potentially be able to wear them down over the course of time through multiple resurrections.

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1 hour ago, Dunkum said:

There was another thread on this a while back, or on something like this anyway, and as I recall the comparison I used is that a fullborn could, using steel, iron, and pewter compounding hit with the speed strength and actual weight of a freight train.  it is hard to imagine even a herald surviving that.  maybe if the fight were happening inside of a highstorm, where the herald would have access to almost limitless investiture.

They don't need Highstorms for investiture. Through their honorblades (before honor died anyway) they were directly powered by Honor. So take that into account, and it is possible for a Herald to beat a fullborn, who do not have unlimited metals. 

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19 minutes ago, The Flash said:

They don't need Highstorms for investiture. Through their honorblades (before honor died anyway) they were directly powered by Honor. So take that into account, and it is possible for a Herald to beat a fullborn, who do not have unlimited metals. 

They don't need unlimited metals if we are talking about a single battle. It would only take a moment of compounded power, after that more metal would be unnecessary.

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8 hours ago, TheLordRuler said:

I was just wondering how the power of a Fullborn would scale with regards to Heralds. 

2 hours ago, Dunkum said:

There was another thread on this a while back

Page and a half. Read the lot, then consider what else needs to be discussed.

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2 hours ago, The Flash said:

They don't need Highstorms for investiture. Through their honorblades (before honor died anyway) they were directly powered by Honor.

do we have a WoB on this?  certainly the only times we've seen an honorblade being used it required stormlight.  and even if that was the case before Honor dies, would it still necessarily be the case in present day roshar?

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7 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

do we have a WoB on this?  certainly the only times we've seen an honorblade being used it required stormlight.  and even if that was the case before Honor dies, would it still necessarily be the case in present day roshar?

I'll search for it, but we have confirmation. Honor's shattering broke the connection between the Honorblades and their direct source of investiture. 

They weren't designed to run off of stormlight, which is why they are so much less efficient than the Spren. 

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2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'll search for it, but we have confirmation. Honor's shattering broke the connection between the Honorblades and their direct source of investiture. 

They weren't designed to run off of stormlight, which is why they are so much less efficient than the Spren. 

makes sense.  so prior to honor's shattering, the main limitation would have been the herald's human bodies and their ability to hold/use investiture.

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11 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

do we have a WoB on this?  certainly the only times we've seen an honorblade being used it required stormlight.  and even if that was the case before Honor dies, would it still necessarily be the case in present day roshar?

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'll search for it, but we have confirmation. Honor's shattering broke the connection between the Honorblades and their direct source of investiture. 

They weren't designed to run off of stormlight, which is why they are so much less efficient than the Spren. 

I found both of them.

Quote

[04:22]

Q: The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

A: Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades (pretty sure he means Honorblades here) were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Q: Like Vin and Elend?

A: Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Quote

[–]18th_Shard 5 points 1 year ago 

Thank you so much for writing such awesome books. I can honestly say that all of your books are some of my favorites.

  1. [..]

  2. Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

[–]mistborn[S] 9 points 1 year ago 

  1. I there had been one, I'd have put it in.
  2. Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)
  3. RAFO.

 

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2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I found both of them.

 

Thanks. If it's not in Theoryland or Pagerunner's collection, I don't even know how to start looking. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

Thanks. If it's not in Theoryland or Pagerunner's collection, I don't even know how to start looking. 

I posted both of them in this thread, and only found it because I remembered the discussion was with Marianmi. (Here's how I found the topic. Enjoy how horrendously bootleg it is.)

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52 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

do we have a WoB on this?  certainly the only times we've seen an honorblade being used it required stormlight.  and even if that was the case before Honor dies, would it still necessarily be the case in present day roshar?

Yes we have confirmation because I got it myself. I asked it in preparation about what would happen if one of these heralds then wielded Nightblood... which was RAFO'd. 

So @The One Who Connects that first one was me :)

Edited by The Flash
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2 hours ago, The Flash said:

Yes we have confirmation because I got it myself. I asked it in preparation about what would happen if one of these heralds then wielded Nightblood... which was RAFO'd. 

So @The One Who Connects that first one was me :)

That was honestly one of my favorite WoBs in a while, nice work :)

Edited by Extesian
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Compounded speed is just too broken to not win against any opponent that can be killed, .1 second into any fight all opponents heads are removed from their body, negating any healing and instant killing them.

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1 hour ago, Extesian said:

That was honestly one of my favorite WoBs in a while, nice work :)

I'll give the credit to my brother. He was the one with the nightblood/Herald question. But first I had to clarify whether they were ACTUALLY directly powered by Honor. Thanks little bro who says he doesn't have time for the shard *sigh* 

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1 hour ago, Voidus said:

Compounded speed is just too broken to not win against any opponent that can be killed, .1 second into any fight all opponents heads are removed from their body, negating any healing and instant killing them.

I said it before and I'll say it again: Yes, TLR hard counters almost everything. But, he has gotten quite overconfident over the centuries, and rightfully so.

On 3/14/2017 at 4:39 PM, The One Who Connects said:
Quote

All this back and forth about Rioting and Soul Casting and Larkins is irrelevant.
In the first second. In the first heartbeat. In the first instant of battle. Somebody dies. Immediately.

I think several of us know that but we ignored it as, like with both Vin and Marsh, he has grown overconfident and wouldn't go full bore right away if he doesn't think he needs to. Once it becomes a proper fight, then sure. But until then, he's gonna hold back for no reason other than because he can.

He wont win the second battle begins, foregone conclusion or not, unless he feels threatened enough to think that he needs to win immediately.

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10 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I said it before and I'll say it again: Yes, TLR hard counters almost everything. But, he has gotten quite overconfident over the centuries, and rightfully so.

He wont win the second battle begins, foregone conclusion or not, unless he feels threatened enough to think that he needs to win immediately.

Well the OP and my reply were in regards to any Fullborn, not specifically TLR. He is relatively unlikely to get even remotely serious in fighting pretty much anyone short of a Shard so I doubt he would start off in a speedburst, but even without that I don't really see the Heralds winning, barring one of the Heralds who has Transformation Soulcasting his bracers away, which would be both almost impossible given their Investiture and also almost unthinkable without them having detailed knowledge of Allomancy, Feruchemy, and TLR himself.

Unlimited healing, speed, strength, perfectly heightened senses, and the ability to detect Investiture as well as essentially telekinesis. Makes for a difficult to beat combo.

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8 hours ago, Voidus said:

Well the OP and my reply were in regards to any Fullborn, not specifically TLR.

OP also mentioned that he wondered how TLR v Herald would go, and the convo was shifting more towards TLR, so my misunderstanding I guess.

On 7/9/2017 at 9:13 AM, Rob Lucci said:

A Herald would shitstomp a Mistborn / Fullborn. If you're looking in RPG terms, it's like pitting a Level 20 character against a Level 120 character. Just totally different planes of existence.

Elaborate, if you would. There aren't enough people who think the Heralds would win, and devils advocate isn't too good at making a solid argument. Besides, it breeds discussion.

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Oh, right. Thought Fullborn was identical to Mistborn.

Fullborn is essentially TLR.

TLR levels of power shitstomp anything else in the Cosmere, apart from maybe Hoid. Unless Fullborn cannot heal Shardblade wounds (e.g heal the soul) then he/she will not even break a sweat.

Edited by Rob Lucci
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A Fullborn with just 10 metals is a physical god and Heralds have nothing on such a powerhouse. Compounding gold and Compounding steel are pretty much enough.

Giving him 16 metals, which include Nicrosil Feruchemy AND Nicrosil Compounding? Constant Mistpoint on everything? I think even Hoid would be afraid.

So yeah, against a Fullborn nobody is gonna win.
An argument could be made that against TLR specifically they could try to cut away his bracers - after all, while he has almost a thousand years of experience with Metallic Arts, those years made him arrogant - if it wasn't for that, Vin would have died instantly.
But against regular Fullborn who is not dependant on Compounding atium to stay alive? Not a chance... maybe if they Soulcast a nuclear bomb, I'm not sure Compounding gold could let you survive a nuclear bomb in point blank.

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2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

A Fullborn with just 10 metals is a physical god and Heralds have nothing on such a powerhouse. Compounding gold and Compounding steel are pretty much enough.

Giving him 16 metals, which include Nicrosil Feruchemy AND Nicrosil Compounding? Constant Mistpoint on everything? I think even Hoid would be afraid.

So yeah, against a Fullborn nobody is gonna win.
An argument could be made that against TLR specifically they could try to cut away his bracers - after all, while he has almost a thousand years of experience with Metallic Arts, those years made him arrogant - if it wasn't for that, Vin would have died instantly.
But against regular Fullborn who is not dependant on Compounding atium to stay alive? Not a chance... maybe if they Soulcast a nuclear bomb, I'm not sure Compounding gold could let you survive a nuclear bomb in point blank.

Mutually assured anhilation eh?  might work.  and a hit in the right place could be lethal, if the fullborn has gold and steel minds out on one of their limbs then cutting that limb might be enough to separate them from their healing and speed, again, so long as they didn't open with a steel compounding blitz.  they could probably heal such a wound eventually, but I'm assuming that if the goldmind is on the hand, say, and the shardblade goes through the arm, then that severs them from access to that goldmind.  so they would need to physically move it to a whole part of the body to access it and heal the servering.

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9 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

but I'm assuming that if the Goldmind is on the hand, say, and the Shardblade goes through the arm, then that severs them from access to that Goldmind.  so they would need to physically move it to a whole part of the body to access it and heal the severing.

Here's a relevant WoB.

Quote

Kurkistan ()

Does a limb that has been "severed" by a Shardblade have any Hemalurgic bindpoints? If the same limb was then cut off more conventionally, would a Bloodmaker Ferring be able to grow it back?

Brandon Sanderson

A severed Shardblade limb needs repair to the soul before it would function again. A Bloodmaker would be able to heal it without needing to grow it back.

I do like your logic. However, assuming our Fullborn can overcome the shock of losing a limb in such an alien sense, they can easily rectify the situation. F-Speed(if necessary) and grab the Goldmind with their other hand. The arm isn't conventionally severed, so it's still within reaching distance.

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