Necessary Eagle Posted July 7, 2017 Report Share Posted July 7, 2017 There's been a lot of debate, especially since Edgedancer, as to whether Ishar is lying or just plain nuts. If he's some sort of double agent, I've got nothin'. But if he's just crazy, then I have a theory on what his particular flavor of Heraldic madness is. Ishar seems to have been the Heralds' ideas man. One of his attributes is Guiding. He was the one who theorized that the Oathpact would still hold if only Taln was Damnation, which as far as we can tell seems to have been correct. Nale still goes to him for advice, and trusts his interpretations of events even when those interpretations sound pretty out there. Ishar's madness, I believe, is that he has become convinced he is infallible. He knows that he is brilliant, and his theories are logical and elegant. But when his theories are contradicted by facts- whether because his thought processes are getting more erratic, or just because he's bound to get something wrong eventually- he can't back down and say, "Nope, back to the drawing board." No matter how compelling the evidence is that he made a mistake- even when there's red-eyed Parshendi throwing lightening outside his window- there must be some other explanation than "My hypothesis was wrong." 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red032 Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Or he is the traitor under Odiun´s sway. It seems too much convenient that he was the one coming up with the idea that weakened the oathpact (my especulation) AND the one that set Nale killing budding KRs. Now that Nale figured out the Voidbringers are back and the desolation is at hand we will see hints on the way he will respond to this new situation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necessary Eagle Posted July 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Well, like I said, if he's a traitor than I don't have anything to add. But if he just regular old Herald-crazy, then this is what I think that crazy is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Wax Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) There was a WoB somewhere saying the heralds are corrupted in one way or another and each Herald's corruption is unique. So, Nale's was the lack of feeling/emotions, so Ishar's can be misguidance/tunnel vision. Edited July 10, 2017 by axcellence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, axcellence said: There was a WoB somewhere saying the heralds are corrupted in one way or another and each Herald's corruption is unique. So, Nale's was the lack of feeling/emotions, so Ishar's can be misguidance/tunnel vision. Quote CCQ Did Ishar intentionally deceive Nalan or does Ishar have bad info that he passed on? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes and no. All of the heralds are insane. CCQ So I clarified the question to being did Ishar know that he was lying to Nalan BRANDON SANDERSON got a RAFO but he added something that seemed to mean that Ishar could perhaps see the future and that each insanity was unique and that uniqueness played a part in the info. Not really sure on the last part. [Source] 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Wax Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 22 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Shades of minority report... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Wax Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) I firmly believe now that the day of recreance happened because of Ishar. He went loco and said no more Nahel bonds. So, all the Heralds instructed the KRs, and that is how the ideals were broken, the spren killed and shardblades surrendered. Basically, KRs come into existence when desolations happen. So, Ishar went around eliminating KRs to ensure desolations don't happen. Like treating the symptoms not the cause. Edited July 11, 2017 by axcellence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Wax Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 1 hour ago, FiveLate said: But....who instructed the stewards? Sorry - but who are the stewards? I did check on coppermind and no SA ref there at a cursory look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Wax Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, FiveLate said: Stupid autocorrect. Stonewards. Presumably Ishar told the top Stonewards that it was the last desolation (refer WoK prologue) - and now they needed to heed to the chief of Bondsmiths, aka Ishar. In the end, it appears most heralds went to Ishar for guidance, and in the absence of Taln, the Stonewards were also guided by him. I can imagine Ishar calling all heralds and KRs for a grand meeting with compulsory attendance, and then the KRs then doing a mass recreance event on Ishar's advice. Otherwise, there'd be a KR dropping off shards here there & everywhere. For them to en masse deposit it at a particular point means they assembled together first. (That'd be a cool question to ask Brandon) Edited July 12, 2017 by axcellence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, FiveLate said: One issue with this is that we do not have a timeline for the amount of time between the Last Desolation, nor have any indications that the Heralds stayed involved with the KR. Considering the events of the prelude, I think it's clear they didn't. They left their blades and vanished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Wax Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 4 hours ago, Calderis said: Considering the events of the prelude, I think it's clear they didn't. They left their blades and vanished. The day of recreance fits in nicely with Nale killing KRs to prevent desolation. I cannot fathom any other reason why KRs would break their oaths at the same moment and leave shards. Same time, same place. The KRs must have believed more good would come from them relinquishing the spren/shards then continuing. Perhaps they figured out that the Heralds had broken the oathpact. But in such a case, some would have protested and would have vowed to continue with more fervour. So, I believe that KRs would have believed that greater good was for them to relinquish the spren. How would they have figured it out? I don't know. Perhaps Ishar intervened directly, or he left a message via some other method (power to send visions ). But, the day of recreance seems to have some twisted machination to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted July 12, 2017 Report Share Posted July 12, 2017 15 hours ago, axcellence said: Perhaps they figured out that the Heralds had broken the oathpact. Quote Question Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did? Brandon Sanderson The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing. [Source] Make of it how you wish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Wax Posted July 13, 2017 Report Share Posted July 13, 2017 9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Good find... but I am sticking to the theory of the greater good being the reason why KRs abandoned the post. And perhaps that logic being pushed by Ishar or others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edvarin Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 If the Almighty was still around when the Heralds abandoned their posts....did their desertion weaken Honor and allow Odium to slay him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 27 minutes ago, Edvarin said: If the Almighty was still around when the Heralds abandoned their posts....did their desertion weaken Honor and allow Odium to slay him? It seems not. Maybe related a bit but that wasn't The Reason Quote WETLANDER Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact? BRANDON SANDERSON Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoomsday Posted October 9, 2017 Report Share Posted October 9, 2017 This is probably completely unrelated, but I think the old man that Lift talks to outside the orphanage is Ishar, or at least one of the Heralds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 9 hours ago, TheDoomsday said: This is probably completely unrelated, but I think the old man that Lift talks to outside the orphanage is Ishar, or at least one of the Heralds. What old man? The phylosopher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoomsday Posted October 11, 2017 Report Share Posted October 11, 2017 On 10/10/2017 at 4:14 PM, Yata said: What old man? The phylosopher? Yeah, I thought that was Ishar, then I actually read it again and I had completely forgotten the twist at the end xD. So basically just ignore that reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secret Ardent Man Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 Have we actually seen Ishar yet in the series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted October 23, 2017 Report Share Posted October 23, 2017 11 hours ago, Secret Ardent Man said: Have we actually seen Ishar yet in the series? Probably not. There are several individuals who have been theorized to be Ishar that we've seen on-screen (like Nale's companion in the WoR prologue), and some that have been referenced but remained off-screen so far (like Tezim, the Tukari god-king), but nothing that is explicitly and undeniably Ishar. What we know of Ishar, we know of the in-universe text of Words of Radiance (since he's mentioned at least once in the epigraphs), and from what Nale says here in Edgedancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejopen27 Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 On 10/23/2017 at 9:49 AM, Pagerunner said: Probably not. There are several individuals who have been theorized to be Ishar that we've seen on-screen (like Nale's companion in the WoR prologue), and some that have been referenced but remained off-screen so far (like Tezim, the Tukari god-king), but nothing that is explicitly and undeniably Ishar. What we know of Ishar, we know of the in-universe text of Words of Radiance (since he's mentioned at least once in the epigraphs), and from what Nale says here in Edgedancer. The philosopher Lift talks to is a Aimian named Arclo. He doesn't say AImian, he says sleepless, but he does name himself as Arclo. I think the Herald Nale is talking to is Kelek. My Ishar theories: Tezim, the Tukari Godpriest The Crazy beggar Axies meets in the alley way in Kasitor Restares, the leader of the Sons of Honor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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