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Hacking AonDor Magic


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So, I thought of a way to hack AonDor.  I've read about theoretical AIs with self-improving software, and I started wondering if it could be possible to create self improving Aons.  Maybe some combination of Aon Shao (Transform, Change), Aon Eshe (Gift, Endowment), and other modifiers could be used to create Aons or sequences of Aons that constantly change and expand to better accomplish some task.  The instructions would probably have to be incredibly complex, like on the scale of supercomputers, but seeing as Aons already act like circuit boards (kind of) this could be technically possible.

If Elantrians ever discovered how to do this efficiently, it could catapult their society to unprecedented levels of technology and magical capabilities.  Seeing the endless opportunities self-improving Aons offer, they could even account for discovering ways to bypass the Dor in the cognitive realm and escaping Sel.

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Two things of note. One, regarding having AonDor programs:

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28:10
DK: OK, I’ve got another question about AonDor. It’s a lot like functional programing.
BS: Yes.

DK: And my question is: could you write higher level language of programming with that.
BS: Yes.

DK: Ohhh...
BS: Mhhm but only an Elantrian could make it like work, right? Not compile but could execute the function. They would have to type it out and execute. Like if you were just, even if you just gave it to them, they would have to retype it and go, but yes, you could.
DK: Couldn’t you like, is there an Aon for define, definition? So like you could go and define some really long sequence of Aons and then assign it to simple shape. 
BS: Right.

DK: Then draw the simple and would it work?
BS: Right right, object oriented. This is realistically plausible, you would have to write all this stuff and call the function and have this constantly in the state of Kinetic Investiture, but that is reasonable. I mean it’s not so far off from things they actually did with much fewer, much fewer lines of code if you wish in the past. It’s what Elantris itself was, so yes.

DK: Pretty awesome.

And two, we haven't even reached that level yet have we? Even considering the tremendous advantages Elantris will have over us during societal development, I don't think they could reach that level too easily.

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4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

What is kinetic investiture?

I'm not the best at explaining stuff like this, so I'll tag @Calderis @Extesian and @The One Who Connects to help me out here if I screw this up. :P

Kinetic Investiture, as I understand it, is when you use Investiture (magic) basically. So, when burning a metal in Allomancy, that is Kinetic Investiture. It's kind of like how there's kinetic energy and potential energy, if that makes sense. I can't really think of any examples for "Potential" Investiture, but I wanna say Breath might be a good one, except for the fact that it grants the heigtneings, which could probably be viewed as Kinetic Investiture.

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1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

What is kinetic investiture?

Kinetic Investiture is the in-universe, fancy term for any Investiture that is being actively used.  When Raoden's drawing an Aon, the glowy white lines are Kinetic Investiture.  

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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

@StrikerEZ got it right. 

Passive investiture is investiture that is being held or stored. Breath, investiture in a metalmind, that sort of thing. Investiture that is actively being used is Kinetic investiture. 

Yay! I felt I was right, but I'm usually wrong when I feel I'm right lol

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Honestly, we already have an example of Object oriented programming on Sel: Forging. Remember how there were two parts to the Emperor's soulstamp? 1. The stamp itself that he has to put into himself, 2. The code of his new mind (ie the pendant) that he has to wear at all times.

From what I can tell, the pendant is the source code, and the soulstamp refers to it so you don't have to restamp the whole thing. I suspect that there would be a way to do the same thing with AonDor, where you place a permanently carved Aon with all of the modifiers etc, that does the actual work, and then an other Aon (maybe also carved?) can be activated by an Elantrian to activate the core one.

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13 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Example of Object oriented programming on Sel: Forging

Here's a.. semi-related entry regarding Forgery and how it works. (for discussion value, might not be too relevant)

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Q: Does Forging work by some kind of ""procedural generation""? So Shai says ""make me a stained glass window with a swirly pattern"" and (assuming it's plausible) a window is ""generated"" without Shai having to go into exacting detail about its form? If so, what are the templates/guidelines that this generation is based off of?
 
A: It's somewhere between the two things you mention, and the guidelines are somewhat quantum in nature--meaning, what's the most likely pattern she'd have created if she'd actually gone about creating it.

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On 7/8/2017 at 10:46 PM, Lord Maelstrom said:

From what I can tell, the pendant is the source code, and the soulstamp refers to it so you don't have to restamp the whole thing. I suspect that there would be a way to do the same thing with AonDor, where you place a permanently carved Aon with all of the modifiers etc, that does the actual work, and then an other Aon (maybe also carved?) can be activated by an Elantrian to activate the core one.

So, they could almost create new aons that are complex. I was thinking, could there be undiscovered/lost(during the reod) aons or modifiers? Just speculation.

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1 hour ago, ElephantEarwax said:

So, they could almost create new aons that are complex. I was thinking, could there be undiscovered/lost(during the reod) aons or modifiers? Just speculation.

There were definitely some Aons that were lost during the Reod, but seeing as there are probably a few pre-Reod Elantrians that stayed as Hoed the entire time and were restored, I feel like they would restore the Aons they knew. Plus you have the Library. I feel like Aons would be written about there, so with a bit of research, you'd get them all back.

However, with the nature of Aons, I feel like research is a part of it. Kinda like how you had people trying to find new metals in Era 1 mistborn, to find more optimal Alloys. Or the Listeners trying to bond different Spren to discover more Forms. I feel like you had Elantrian researchers who dedicated their life to the study of Aons to discover different ways you could use Aon Dor. It would explain why you had so many books on Geography, as well as AonDor theory.

Plus, it sounds like similar research was going on with the Dakhor monks, which is why Dilaf was the only monk with the anti-Aon ability. It was still a recent discovery and hadn't been all that widespread.

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3 hours ago, ElephantEarwax said:

I was thinking, could there be undiscovered/lost(during the reod) aons or modifiers? Just speculation.

Given that Aon definitions are less descriptions and more "words," there could easily be as many Aons as there are words in the English language. We know Raoden read a notebook written entirely in Aons. To do that, we'd need to learn a lot more Aons than we currently have, so there must be more.

2 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Plus, it sounds like similar research was going on with the Dakhor monks, which is why Dilaf was the only monk with the anti-Aon ability. It was still a recent discovery and hadn't been all that widespread.

While I agree with you, it is good to remember that Dakhor itself is a recent discovery.

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You’ll notice, therefore, that I pile on the lose threads here. The most important one, of course, is the concept that Fjorden has gained access to the Dor (presumably recently.) The Dakhor are a newer development–Wyrn was just getting ready to use them against Elantris when the city fell on its own. (Dilaf wasn’t the only Dakhor plant inside Arelon. But, those are stories for another time.)

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On 7/13/2017 at 4:55 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Given that Aon definitions are less descriptions and more "words," there could easily be as many Aons as there are words in the English language. We know Raoden read a notebook written entirely in Aons. To do that, we'd need to learn a lot more Aons than we currently have, so there must be more.

@Calderis@Lord MaelstromAre there any WoB on where Aon modifiers originated? Could they be from smaller natural formations in Arelon, of from street patterns in Elantris?

Edited by ElephantEarwax
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/19/2017 at 1:47 PM, ElephantEarwax said:

Are there any WoB on where Aon modifiers originated? Could they be from smaller natural formations in Arelon, of from street patterns in Elantris?

None to my knowledge. The Street patterns in Elantris are Aon Ela(focus, center), by the way. The new artwork for the 10th anniversary version makes it quite clear.

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@ElephantEarwax Not that I know of. However, Arcanum Unbounded has an entry about the Selish system that does mention that because of the way magic on Sel is based on the CR instead of the SR, intent and forms are much much more important with Selish magic, to the extent where language and words become a part of it. it almost makes it sound like the magic derived from the different languages.

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1 hour ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

@ElephantEarwax Not that I know of. However, Arcanum Unbounded has an entry about the Selish system that does mention that because of the way magic on Sel is based on the CR instead of the SR, intent and forms are much much more important with Selish magic, to the extent where language and words become a part of it. it almost makes it sound like the magic derived from the different languages.

The weirdest part here though, is that the languages are derived from the land itself. The Aons incorporate parts of the landscape to convey their meaning. 

The magic and language changed to fit the characters of the language that already existed. 

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10 hours ago, Calderis said:

The weirdest part here though, is that the languages are derived from the land itself. The Aons incorporate parts of the landscape to convey their meaning. 

The magic and language changed to fit the characters of the language that already existed. 

Are we sure about that? I'm fairly sure that at least Aon Dor (as a language) existed before the splintering of Devotion and Dominion, so it could be posible that the shards had an influence in the languages, which is why the land and the languages are connected. Though I do think your idea has a lot of merit (i actually really like it) I'd like to get a bit more backing (WoB style preferably) before jumping on the band wagon.

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7 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Are we sure about that? I'm fairly sure that at least Aon Dor (as a language) existed before the splintering of Devotion and Dominion, so it could be posible that the shards had an influence in the languages, which is why the land and the languages are connected. Though I do think your idea has a lot of merit (i actually really like it) I'd like to get a bit more backing (WoB style preferably) before jumping on the band wagon.

I just woke up, so I'll look more later to try and back it up, but it's in the annotations somewhere. The Aons were discovered as they are. It wasn't a matter of design, it was discovery.

Edit: I'm digging through the annotations now, but a thought occurred to me that underscores the point. The language of the Aons, and the magic associated with it,  had to have developed from the land directly. If it hadn't, the Chasm shouldn't have been able to completely destroy the system.

Edit2: @Lord Maelstrom didn't find what I was looking for in the annotations, but I did find this. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=768

This is the the beginning of the second entry on that page I haven't seen before but have to go read all of now. 

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

History and Use

All Aons exist independent of humankind, their symbols inherently tied to their meaning, but few have distinct origin stories explaining how the Aon was first discovered. Some modern scholars scoff at such tales, but Aon Ehe's origin myth is well known among the common people and believed by most.

 

Edited by Calderis
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3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Edit: I'm digging through the annotations now, but a thought occurred to me that underscores the point. The language of the Aons, and the magic associated with it,  had to have developed from the land directly. If it hadn't, the Chasm shouldn't have been able to completely destroy the system.

Edit2: @Lord Maelstrom didn't find what I was looking for in the annotations, but I did find this. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=768

This is the the beginning of the second entry on that page I haven't seen before but have to go read all of now. 

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

History and Use

All Aons exist independent of humankind, their symbols inherently tied to their meaning, but few have distinct origin stories explaining how the Aon was first discovered. Some modern scholars scoff at such tales, but Aon Ehe's origin myth is well known among the common people and believed by most.

So ..... The Aons existed before people discovered them, and they discovered the meaning of the Aons (or gave the Aons meaning) based on what the result of the Aon was? Like, Ehe is the symbol for fire because it makes a column of flame. So, it almost looks like the Aons didn't start out as a language, the people just adapted the symbols of AonDor as a language, choosing meanings for the various Aons.

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12 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

So ..... The Aons existed before people discovered them, and they discovered the meaning of the Aons (or gave the Aons meaning) based on what the result of the Aon was? Like, Ehe is the symbol for fire because it makes a column of flame. So, it almost looks like the Aons didn't start out as a language, the people just adapted the symbols of AonDor as a language, choosing meanings for the various Aons.

Yeah. So I guess as an actual language, it was adapted to fit the existing characters, and meanings expanded outward from that starting point. 

The Aons themselves exist completely on their own though, which is a development from the Dor in the Cognitive expressing itself outward through the region of land its attached to. 

It doesn't give a lot in the way of connection between the Aons and Arelon itself, but that link gives a good chunk of info on Aons Ehe, Omi, and Ene

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Could it perhaps be said that aons were/ are the blueprint of creation each aon might be said to be an aspect which is independent of any "discovery" for example if you drew up the plans each component exists in a theoretical sense without being built. So too with the aons which existed to draw up creation and whose names which may have been given upon "discovery" are only secondary.

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24 minutes ago, ElephantEarwax said:

The moon scepter changes investiture, correct?

 

If it is a Rosseta stone, it allows for the translation and understanding of language. Since Sel's magics are focused through the forms of writing based on their landmass it is theorized to allow the translation of one magic system into another throughout the regions on Sel. 

So an Elantrian with it could translate the Aons into the writing form needed to draw an Aon in MaiPon, and vice versa. 

At least that's the speculation. 

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