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Homeworld of the Ones Above


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  • 2 months later...
On 7/7/2017 at 11:22 AM, teknopathetic said:

True, but when I read secret history I knew it wouldn't work before the magic was tried... Hmmm. Sorry if I am wrong. I am looking right now haha. 

The Ire are no clue because they have a very non-standard relationship with the cognitive realm. 

I think that at least some magic can be used by people who travel to the cognitive realm while not dead because

when Kaladin and co traveled there he was able to use surgebinding to fight the voidbringers there, as could Shallan.

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  • 9 months later...

Scadrial seems the most likely, their magic system seems to facilitate FTL travel the easiest, as well as putting space travellers into stasis. We've already seen them develop airships. Plus medallions! The Three Metallic Arts don't seem to provide access to the Cognitive Realm (though there are multiple access points to the Spiritual Realm built into the magics). The Kandra are very good at playing dead, like the emissary who conveniently died from choking.

Roshar seems the next most likely. There's that chouta comment. Plus, the Surges of Adhesion controlling pressure and vacuum, and the Surge of Gravitation are also ripe for use in spacefaring. They too seem like they might be on the verge of developing air ships (go Navani!) Plus fabrials!

Sel also seems likely. The Ire, at least, were very knowledgeable about the Cosmere but they don't seem to care about Elantris, much less the entirety of Sel. The Selish would need to travel by physical space rather than through the Cognitive Realm due to the Dor.

Taldain... no clues one way or another. They are technologically advanced (at least on Darkside) and definitely should be interested in new forms of Investiture seeing that their's seems to be the weakest (Sand Mastery), the Investiture systems may very well be the Cosmere's version of an arms race... will Autonomy let two of her own worlds fight each other?..... come to think of it, she very well might.

Nalthis... I think they'd have noticed if such *ahem* colourful people were to pay them a visit... but Vasher can hide his Heightening, so others may have learned to as well. Maybe very complex commands are now possible and there are national treasuries of Breath; entire civilizations and technological marvels fuelled by Breath.

Threnody, much like Sel, they too have reasons to want to develop methods for interstellar travel via the Physical as they lack a stable Perpendicularity. The Ire wondered if "players" from Threnody were trying to "join the stage". We see (though through a second-hand source that Shades can be used in technology). Shade powered spaceships, anyone? 

I think analyzing their Shards might provide more helpful answers.

Harmony might put on the trade restrictions, would Cultivation or Autonomy? Harmony didn't intervene with the Southern Scadrians. Or Autonomy between Dayside and Darkside. Cultivation switched, alongside Honor, to the Ashynites over the Singers. The Selish and Threnodites wouldn't have any such compulsions since their Shards are dead, rather I think the latter's Shard might've encouraged them. Would Endowment care? hmm.......... 

Edited by Honorless
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I think that the ones from above are from Roshar.

Due to following reasons:

-  the chouta comment as mentioned by Windrunner

- @Honorless : as you said "Roshar seems the next most likely. There's that chouta comment. Plus, the Surges of Adhesion controlling pressure and vacuum, and the Surge of Gravitation are also ripe for use in spacefaring. They too seem like they might be on the verge of developing air ships (go Navani!) Plus fabrials!"

i agree they seem to have the technology for it.

- other reason is that the way "the ones from above" are going about it, it feels like it is future Roshar society to me. 

there is this quote from the story: " how the machine worked vathi, the insides... they are complex beyond what we could have imagined. But there are seeds there. Things we could..." and then later Dusk says :

Quote

It is a trap, you see, the Ones Above have rules. They can't trade with us until we are advanced enough. There will be explanations, left as if carelessly, for us to dig into and learn. And in the near future, we will build something like this. We will have grown more quickly than we should have. But the laws from above will let these visitors trade with us. And then they will take our land from us.

As Vathi had said.... progress would come.

These lines, and the way the Ones Above and their motives are described here, to me, points towards a society that

- cares about rules and laws

- cares about honor, in not trading with an technologically inferior society

- but have no scruples about interfering with them, nudging them so that they advance more quickly, because that would lead to progress

- the emphasis on the need to get this world to progress, giving them the machine, leaving instructions, thus in a sneaky way trying to cultivate them towards progress, growth... 

and then in the end, "progress would come", i see progress as basically a synonym for Cultivation, so to me it sounds like Ones Above are Rosharan due to their emphasis on rules, laws, an honor code where invading is cool as long as the people have enough advancement that they have a fighting chance. Neither honor nor cultivation as intents are averse to invasion and conquering new land.

 Scadrial i don't see as a society that would care about these rules, laws or code of conduct. I don't see why Harmony as a shardic intent would care about the fact that dusk and his world should first progress enough to have a fighting chance. 

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I absolutely agree @The traveller. I used to think (as most poeple tend to) they are Scadrians. Just the fact that we will see future Scardrial seemed enough. But I started to think of them as Rosharan after a reread, when I noticed how much they care about rules and laws. And, on Scadrial they already have a quite effective way of protecting themselves from allomancy: a Coppercloud or some aluminium. But, if ever people from Roshar get to meet Scadrians (which I find quite likely to haappen later in the cosmere) I can easily see them afraid of emotional allomancy, so it makes sense they would like to have Aviars.

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23 minutes ago, Nnatel said:

I absolutely agree @The traveller. I used to think (as most poeple tend to) they are Scadrians. Just the fact that we will see future Scardrial seemed enough. But I started to think of them as Rosharan after a reread, when I noticed how much they care about rules and laws. And, on Scadrial they already have a quite effective way of protecting themselves from allomancy: a Coppercloud or some aluminium. But, if ever people from Roshar get to meet Scadrians (which I find quite likely to haappen later in the cosmere) I can easily see them afraid of emotional allomancy, so it makes sense they would like to have Aviars.

Yes another good point regarding aviars..

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6 hours ago, Nnatel said:

And, on Scadrial they already have a quite effective way of protecting themselves from allomancy: a Coppercloud or some aluminium

Aviars do a lot of other things.  With Southern tec you could make it so that you could do those things(atium sight for example).  On Roshar you just need the right fabrial.  On scadirail Alomancy is much more specified.

Edited by Karger
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On 10/25/2019 at 4:43 AM, The traveller said:

 

- other reason is that the way "the ones from above" are going about it, it feels like it is future Roshar society to me. 

 

You've convinced me. Roshar really is the most likely case in that regard.

On 10/25/2019 at 9:14 AM, Nnatel said:

I absolutely agree @The traveller. I used to think (as most poeple tend to) they are Scadrians. Just the fact that we will see future Scardrial seemed enough. But I started to think of them as Rosharan after a reread, when I noticed how much they care about rules and laws. And, on Scadrial they already have a quite effective way of protecting themselves from allomancy: a Coppercloud or some aluminium. But, if ever people from Roshar get to meet Scadrians (which I find quite likely to haappen later in the cosmere) I can easily see them afraid of emotional allomancy, so it makes sense they would like to have Aviars.

Especially considering all the emotional impact that Odium has had on them. I wouldn't be surprised if future Roshar is highly averse to any sort of emotion based invested art.

Edited by Lunu’anaki
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On 11/2/2019 at 6:12 AM, The traveller said:

 may be the Rosharans want to conduct a comparative study between these aviars and their weird inverstiture consuming birds.. 

I have a hard time believing that a group of people care enough about science to subjugate an entire culture over it.  Money on the other hand...

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5 hours ago, Karger said:

I have a hard time believing that a group of people care enough about science to subjugate an entire culture over it.  Money on the other hand...

There can be multiple motivations.. may be science starts it but then they think why not take the place.. trade opportunities, a second home free from constant highstorms 

Roshar has a lot of naval based cultures, they will not mind a planet which is a lot of water

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1 minute ago, The traveller said:

There can be multiple motivations.. may be science starts it but then they think why not take the place.. trade opportunities, a second home free from constant highstorms 

This is one group of people.  Not several successive groups.  Remember they all(or at least the management) have to be in on the conspiracy for it to work.  A leek means that the law catches up to them.

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@Karger it is not clear what is your argument.. you have not raised any counter points to my post where I have explained in detail how the emphasis on rules and laws and growth of the ones above indicate a Rosharan way of thinking .. 

you seem to be arguing that Scadrials are interested in aviars based on what evidence? There is no proof that ones above have even shown any such interest. 
 

And anyway any alien species might be interested in them which is true of Rosharan also since they already have weird birds. 
 

23 hours ago, Karger said:

This is one group of people.  Not several successive groups.  Remember they all(or at least the management) have to be in on the conspiracy for it to work.  A leek means that the law catches up to them.

Too many assumptions on your part.. different people in a group might have multiple goals while working towards a single unified goal. 
what law catching up to them are you talking about? Please clarify..

Edited by The traveller
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10 hours ago, The traveller said:

 it is not clear what is your argument.. you have not raised any counter points to my post where I have explained in detail how the emphasis on rules and laws and growth of the ones above indicate a Rosharan way of thinking .. 

Or for lack of a better word.  A civilized way of thinking.  It is generally speaking not possible to build and maintain a complex high tec society without some kind of laws and judicial processes.  If you look at the world's most successful empires of the 18th century.  You will notice that they all had some kind of law and that those laws were enforced.  Britain became a predominate world power in large part because they could organize themselves on a large scale.  This cannot happen without law either.  Even today you will find that the countries with a strong rule of are considerately more technologically advanced and more wealthy then those without.

10 hours ago, The traveller said:

you seem to be arguing that Scadrials are interested in aviars based on what evidence? There is no proof that ones above have even shown any such interest. 

The Scadrians possess the magic system easiest to use off world.  They also are rather limited in what that magic system can do with only 32 powers available.  The Scadrains are also the most technologically advanced and we know they will eventually figure out FTL travel.  The Rosharans can probably make fabrails capable of doing almost everything the avairs can. 

10 hours ago, The traveller said:

Too many assumptions on your part.. different people in a group might have multiple goals while working towards a single unified goal. 
what law catching up to them are you talking about? Please clarify..

They have laws against doing what they are doing.  Trading with a native culture is forbidden.  Dusk figures out that they are purposely being careless and leaving behind the things that they need to push them forward.  This way they can be charged with negligence rather then a serious offense if ever caught.  In this kind of conspiricy if one of them is caught "leaving" something for someone else to find they are in deep trouble. 

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

It is generally speaking not possible to build and maintain a complex high tec society without some kind of laws and judicial processes.

Every society no matter How Simple or complex, has some laws and some means of reinforcing those laws. But the ones above have specific laws or you can say an honor code that they adhere to which does not allow them to openly interact with societies who are not at a minimum threshold of development. Also, they are willing to provide seeds to the inferior society in helping them progress enough that they can surpass the required threshold set by their laws so then they can openly engage in taking over the said world. 
 

Therefore, laws every world has, but not every worlds laws are going to be so focused on honor, development and ensuring the development and then conquering the fots. So, it is, in my opinion, a very Rosharan way of thinking, a Roshar deeply influenced by both honor and cultivation. 
 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

The Scadrians possess the magic system easiest to use off world.  They also are rather limited in what that magic system can do with only 32 powers available.  The Scadrains are also the most technologically advanced and we know they will eventually figure out FTL travel. 

But we also know that they are not the only world who is going to achieve FTL travel. There are going to be other worlds too. And if Scadrial is first in that list then Roshar is also a close second. As far as the magic system is concerned, Roshar magic system with- surges of gravity, adhesion, transportation + oathgates have all the ready ingredients for FTL travel. Also, Scadrial in terms of technology has developed flight whereas Rosharans have instantaneous travel via oathgates already! Who is more advanced then? 
 

plus I think Scadrial is too obvious an answer and that is not Brandon’s style. 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

In this kind of conspiricy if one of them is caught "leaving" something for someone else to find they are in deep trouble. 

I disagree. It is not a conspiracy Which might leak!! it is a well thought and deliberately executed strategy on the part of the ones above, that is one of the little quirks of Rosharans that they love to set rules and then see how to circumvent them. In fact I think it is very in line with cultivation too. Leave seeds around, And then what happen, may happen. So, leave some machine and instructions, let them develop on their own, very cultivationy. Remember, she sits in the valley with NW and let’s her grant boons and banes to whomever comes their way voluntarily. 
She is a master of this type of manipulation. 
None of this screams harmony to me. I don’t see him even encouraging any conquests to begin with. So, any conquests they may set out on will be done by Scadrials on their own and I don’t see that Scadrials will really care at all about going this round about way in order to conquer this world. 

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49 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I disagree. It is not a conspiracy Which might leak!! it is a well thought and deliberately executed strategy on the part of the ones above, that is one of the little quirks of Rosharans that they love to set rules and then see how to circumvent them.

47 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I disagree. It is not a conspiracy Which might leak!! it is a well thought and deliberately executed strategy on the part of the ones above, that is one of the little quirks of Rosharans that they love to set rules and then see how to circumvent them

26 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Every society no matter How Simple or complex, has some laws and some means of reinforcing those laws.

Not social law.  Codified legalities.

27 minutes ago, The traveller said:

But the ones above have specific laws or you can say an honor code that they adhere to which does not allow them to openly interact with societies who are not at a minimum threshold of development

The fact that they follow the prime directive is an indication that someone on their home world did has a high level ethical framework and managed to get it codified into their legal code.  I do not think that ethics are in any way exclusive to Roshar.  Sure many people there are concerned with ethical decision making but the same is true for every other shardworld.

31 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Also, they are willing to provide seeds to the inferior society in helping them progress enough that they can surpass the required threshold set by their laws so then they can openly engage in taking over the said world. 

This is almost certainly illegal.  It is an attempt to circumvent the law unethically and I am fairly certain that if people at home found out the perpetrators of this scam would be in deep trouble.

33 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Therefore, laws every world has, but not every worlds laws are going to be so focused on honor, development and ensuring the development and then conquering the fots. So, it is, in my opinion, a very Rosharan way of thinking, a Roshar deeply influenced by both honor and cultivation. 

Or Endowment who wants to give everyone an equal chance.  Or Devotion who wants to make everyone happy.  Or Dominion who respects the boundaries of others.  Or Harmony who wants to give everyone their own chance.  Or Autonomy who wants everyone to live their own way...

Think about it this way.  What would the likes of Sadeas and young Dalinar do if they were the ones above.  Just because a shard rests on your world does not mean that you will have similar ethics to that Shard's intent.

38 minutes ago, The traveller said:

But we also know that they are not the only world who is going to achieve FTL travel. There are going to be other worlds too. And if Scadrial is first in that list then Roshar is also a close second. As far as the magic system is concerned, Roshar magic system with- surges of gravity, adhesion, transportation + oathgates have all the ready ingredients for FTL travel. Also, Scadrial in terms of technology has developed flight whereas Rosharans have instantaneous travel via oathgates already! Who is more advanced then? 

Scadrains.  They are actually close to figuring out how their powers work.  No one on Roshar questions the surges or how they are related or what they do.  Scadrians are also more wealthy, they are not in the middle of a desolation, and they have industrial centers.  The Rosharans don't know how to build an oathgate.  They just happen to have a few.  Also Oathgate travel is just between two places.  It will not build you a spaceship.

41 minutes ago, The traveller said:

plus I think Scadrial is too obvious an answer and that is not Brandon’s style. 

Shrugs.  Why not make it less obvious and have them be from threnody then?  We know nothing about their magic system.  Also.

Quote
 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)
#17 Share Copy
 
Play/Paus

Questioner

In Sixth of the Dusk, are the Ones Above Scadrians who invented faster-than-light travel? 

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I haven't-- I danced around answering that one, just because I don't quite want to get into it yet. I like the Ones Above being somewhat mysterious. But I have said it is someone you know, right? It is part of the cosmere in the very future. So you're not going to be surprised, because there's a limited number of options. But I haven't said-- 'cause I might do more in that world, and I just want to leave them mysterious for now. 

 

49 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I disagree. It is not a conspiracy Which might leak!! it is a well thought and deliberately executed strategy on the part of the ones above, that is one of the little quirks of Rosharans that they love to set rules and then see how to circumvent them. In fact I think it is very in line with cultivation too. Leave seeds around, And then what happen, may happen. So, leave some machine and instructions, let them develop on their own, very cultivationy. Remember, she sits in the valley with NW and let’s her grant boons and banes to whomever comes their way voluntarily. 
She is a master of this type of manipulation. 
None of this screams harmony to me. I don’t see him even encouraging any conquests to begin with. So, any conquests they may set out on will be done by Scadrials on their own and I don’t see that Scadrials will really care at all about going this round about way in order to conquer this world. 

What the Ones Above are doing is highly unethical.  They are also clearly trying to circumvent the law.  Law is not a game.  If I were a Rosharan lawyer I would have most of these people executed for what they are doing.  The consequences of colonialism are terrible.

 

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

I do not think that ethics are in any way exclusive to Roshar.  Sure many people there are concerned with ethical decision making but the same is true for every other shardworld.

It is not at all a common ethical value that every society will holds. I disagree that every society will hold to this very particular very specific ethical concern that the ones above hold. In our own world, irl, much developed countries with codified laws and much civilisation and led by a unified religion, had no hesitation over attacking and conquering under-developed less technologically advanced societies, even tribal societies were not spared. It is not at all common. How can you assume then, that every world in Cosmere will have similar concerns!! 

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

This is almost certainly illegal.  It is an attempt to circumvent the law unethically and I am fairly certain that if people at home found out the perpetrators of this scam would be in deep trouble.

I do not see the relevance of this argument at all. There are loopholes in every law. They are merely making use of it. Lawyers all over the world earn their livelihood by exploiting loopholes in codified laws. Rosharans are not Skybreakers.. I do not see that it is of any concern. 

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Or Endowment who wants to give everyone an equal chance.  Or Devotion who wants to make everyone happy.  Or Dominion who respects the boundaries of others.  Or Harmony who wants to give everyone their own chance.  Or Autonomy who wants everyone to live their own way...

Speculation. In reality, we do not know How devotion or dominion felt about anything or how their intents worked. Nothing specifically in the intents of harmony or endowment speaks of development. I disagree. Harmony did not give equal chances to southerners. He himself said I was more benevolent towards elendel basin. What really is the thinking behind what Endowment is doing, we don’t know. 
 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

What the Ones Above are doing is highly unethical.  They are also clearly trying to circumvent the law.  Law is not a game.  If I were a Rosharan lawyer I would have most of these people executed for what they are doing.  The consequences of colonialism are terrible.

It is your personal opinion, one that I do not agree with. It is ethical from the ones above point of view. Law is not a game but it does have loopholes which are often exploited by people. And good luck executing everyone who does so!! I hope you are not a lawyer irl. Colonialism is terrible but does not mean that it did not happen nor were those colonialists executed. 
 

and the wob you have quoted, only says it is someone we know.. which applies to both Roshar and Scadrial. 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Scadrains.  They are actually close to figuring out how their powers work.  No one on Roshar questions the surges or how they are related or what they do.  Scadrians are also more wealthy, they are not in the middle of a desolation, and they have industrial centers.  The Rosharans don't know how to build an oathgate.  They just happen to have a few.  Also Oathgate travel is just between two places.  It will not build you a spaceship.

Just because Roshar have not figured all this out, does not mean they never will. They are developing fabrials. They will learn a lot of stuff before the end of SA. Technically, Scadrial era 2 happens during the gap between SA 5&6. So I see that chronologically neither is ahead of the other as of yet as far as FTL travel is concerned.  And there are enough wobs that have been quoted in the thread regarding transportation that indicate how off-the-world transportation can work out in Roshar. You follow that thread too. Need I copy paste the same wobs!!!

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2 hours ago, The traveller said:

It is not at all a common ethical value that every society will holds. I disagree that every society will hold to this very particular very specific ethical concern that the ones above hold. In our own world, irl, much developed countries with codified laws and much civilisation and led by a unified religion, had no hesitation over attacking and conquering under-developed less technologically advanced societies, even tribal societies were not spared. It is not at all common. How can you assume then, that every world in Cosmere will have similar concerns!! 

That is not what I said at all.  Roshar has people concerned with ethics but so does literally every other place or planet on or off earth.  Few things are more important then ethical decision making.  The fact that these people choose to do right by others does not make them Rosharan.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

I do not see the relevance of this argument at all. There are loopholes in every law. They are merely making use of it. Lawyers all over the world earn their livelihood by exploiting loopholes in codified laws. Rosharans are not Skybreakers.. I do not see that it is of any concern. 

I hate to say I am deeply troubled that you don't think the ones above are engaging in unethical behavior that the law is clearly designed to prevent.  A lot of people have done some terrible things by claiming they are helping to develop those backward people over there.  Modern examples include China's belt and Road initiative which is going to hurt a lot of people down the road.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

Nothing specifically in the intents of harmony

I am going to paraphrase but "the purpose is Harmony.  Making a future in which the maximum number of people can have free will."  Is literally a quote by Saze.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

How devotion or dominion felt about anything or how their intents worked

But we can see the effect of their intents on their magic systems.  Elantrains are highly devoted individuals and their power is region locked.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

It is your personal opinion, one that I do not agree with. It is ethical from the ones above point of view

Ethics is not a place were you can state objective truth but I am going to go out on a limb and say that I don't care what about the opinion of anyone who thinks if they can justify causing hardship and suffering to a group of people for personal gain.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

It is ethical from the ones above point of view.

Even the cutthroat sees his actions as ethical after a fashion.  See my above statement.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

I disagree. Harmony did not give equal chances to southerners. He himself said I was more benevolent towards elendel basin. What really is the thinking behind what Endowment is doing, we don’t know. 

Honor is dead we know practically nothing about Cultivation and I have difficulty understanding why you think that changes how a group of people would act.  It is not like everyone on Threnody is supper ambitious.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

Law is not a game but it does have loopholes which are often exploited by people

Sure but that is not what they are doing.  This is actually more similar to entrapment.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

And good luck executing everyone who does so!! I hope you are not a lawyer irl. Colonialism is terrible but does not mean that it did not happen nor were those colonialists executed. 

  I am not advocating for the execution of minor criminals or people who don't pay speeding tickets or do creative tax forms.  However as I have been trying to point.  An entire world will be considerable worse off as a result of these people wanting Aviar.  These people obviously have laws designed to prevent colonialism which means they have experience with it.  If that is a case they know how bad it is and they are likely willing to go to extreme lengths to prevent it.  This indicates extraordinarily high penalties for those who break the rules or try to circumvent them.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

and the wob you have quoted, only says it is someone we know.. which applies to both Roshar and Scadrial. 

3 hours ago, Karger said:
 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)
#17 Share Copy

 
Play/Paus

Questioner

In Sixth of the Dusk, are the Ones Above Scadrians who invented faster-than-light travel? 

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I haven't-- I danced around answering that one, just because I don't quite want to get into it yet. I like the Ones Above being somewhat mysterious. But I have said it is someone you know, right? It is part of the cosmere in the very future. So you're not going to be surprised, because there's a limited number of options. But I haven't said-- 'cause I might do more in that world, and I just want to leave them mysterious for now. 

I said this in response to your.  Brandon is not going to be obvious about it line.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

Just because Roshar have not figured all this out, does not mean they never will. They are developing fabrials. They will learn a lot of stuff before the end of SA. Technically, Scadrial era 2 happens during the gap between SA 5&6. So I see that chronologically neither is ahead of the other as of yet as far as FTL travel is concerned.  And there are enough wobs that have been quoted in the thread regarding transportation that indicate how off-the-world transportation can work out in Roshar. You follow that thread too. Need I copy paste the same wobs!!!

Most of those kinds of Transportation won't work for worldhopping.  Spren are Roshar locked.  Hoid himself is actually going to have trouble getting them off world.

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21 minutes ago, Karger said:

The fact that these people choose to do right by others does not make them Rosharan.

Right by others??! In your earlier argument you were finding it very unethical worthy of execution!! 
 

I think they are considering things that no colonisers in even real world bothered with. They are trying to be ethical in their own skewed way. Does not make what they are doing ok by any means. But it according to me is very Rosharan. You may disagree. I don’t care. 

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

I hate to say I am deeply troubled that you don't think the ones above are engaging in unethical behavior that the law is clearly designed to prevent.  A lot of people have done some terrible things by claiming they are helping to develop those backward people over there.  Modern examples include China's belt and Road initiative which is going to hurt a lot of people down the road.

Dude... what does this argument have anything to do with whether they are Scadrian or Rosharan?? 
I am not saying that Rosharans are being ethical. I am saying that this whole development of fots before attacking them is deemed honourable by the ones above and it is a very Rosharan way of thinking according to me. 
you are bringing ethics into this, talking about executing anyone who so much as uses a loophole in their laws.. that I find equally disturbing!! 
 

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

Ethics is not a place were you can state objective truth but I am going to go out on a limb and say that I don't care what about the opinion of anyone who thinks if they can justify causing hardship and suffering to a group of people for personal gain.

This again is irrelevant to whether they are Rosharan or from Scadrial. 
You seem to think it is unethical of Rosharans but find no difficulty in believing that a shard like harmony who according to you is all about free will, is going to be ok with such an action !! 

 

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sure but that is not what they are doing.  This is actually more similar to entrapment.

According to only you. Again not relevant to the discussion at hand. 

the wob literally says there are limited options not there is only one option!! 

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

These people obviously have laws designed to prevent colonialism which means they have experience with it. 

That is not true. The laws as sotd states are only about needing a certain threshold after that fair game. It is not against conquering other nations. 

 

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

Most of those kinds of Transportation won't work for worldhopping.  Spren are Roshar locked.  Hoid himself is actually going to have trouble getting them off world.

As of now!! SA is not finished yet. 
 

look stop quoting me. You can keep your Scadrial belief and I have my views. I am not here to try to convert you. 


 

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2 hours ago, The traveller said:

Right by others??! In your earlier argument you were finding it very unethical worthy of execution!! 

Bad phrasing also that is out of context.  I meant that in their home world they have people concerned with ethics and doing right by others.  These people are obviously not.  Also you are now no longer attacking my argument you are attacking my rhetoric Ad hominem.  This is not something permitted in formal debate.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

I think they are considering things that no colonisers in even real world bothered with. They are trying to be ethical in their own skewed way.

I think you are totally wrong and Dusk says that he agrees with me.  The ones above are trying to advance them to quickly so that they can be treated as an adult civilization.  "We will be childlike still, ignorant, but the laws from above will let the visitors trade with us.  And then they will take this land for themselves."

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

I am not saying that Rosharans are being ethical. I am saying that this whole development of fots before attacking them is deemed honourable by the ones above and it is a very Rosharan way of thinking according to me. 

I seriously hope that by the time Roshar has FTL they outgrow the idea of empire and conquest.  Also who on earth(or Roshar) would decide to put into a legal code.  Go to war with people only after they have gained the capacity to do a bit more damage then they could otherwise do but will still inevitably loose.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

you are bringing ethics into this, talking about executing anyone who so much as uses a loophole in their laws.. that I find equally disturbing!! 

Please stop taking my posts out of contexts and actually read them.

3 hours ago, Karger said:

  I am not advocating for the execution of minor criminals or people who don't pay speeding tickets or do creative tax forms.

 

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

This again is irrelevant to whether they are Rosharan or from Scadrial. 
You seem to think it is unethical of Rosharans but find no difficulty in believing that a shard like harmony who according to you is all about free will, is going to be ok with such an action !! 

I never said or implied it.  I was attacking two separate parts of your argument.  Attack on Part 1. Laws about ethical treatment of others = Honor(not true)

Attack on part 2. Harmony would not approve.  Neither for that matter would Honor.  However a shard does not determine its people's moral ideals.

3 hours ago, The traveller said:

According to only you. Again not relevant to the discussion at hand. 

Also according to several in world characters in the Aha moment of the novella.  Aha moments generally reveal truth.  In Mistborn the Aha reavealed that you could combine two magic systems.  This is true.  In Warbreaker the Aha was about the 5 scholars.  In SA 1 the Aha was Sadeas motivation.  At the resolution of a conflict the readers should understand and be able to make sense of the conflict. 

If you want to put forward your own theory about the Ones above being secretly good guys feel free.  I have one myself.

This is all a test.  The Ones Above are secretly monitoring everything remotely.  If the people on the ground choose to take apart the machine and be lead along by them they leave and destroy the tec before they go.  If they do what Dusk is doing then they keep playing the game as a way to make the ones below suspicious and innovative.

However you can't just say my theory goes against the established narrative despite no evidence and you certainly can't use this to support another unrelated theory.  Based on what we actually know/believe right now.  I think Scadrains are the most obvious choice.  You can disagree but please keep the established beliefs when you do so.

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That is not Ad Hominem. The traveller is not attacking you for holding your viewpoint but pointing out the contradictory elements of your argument.

At best, you can argue that you are discussing both sides of the argument, critiquing them but you have not put forward your own hypothesis either. You have broken more rules of formal debate than I can count at this point.

Such... Errorgance

You have only put forward contradictory statements at all, in fact, to any and all hypothesis- whether made by yourself or by others. Even when someone conceded their point, you then contradicted that as well. And yet you tell The traveller to "keep the established beliefs". Your arguments here are based on your perspective of the real world, not evidences taken from the book or the author himself, and that perspective of yours is being challenged. If you find that galling, please just excuse yourself.

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50 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Ad Hominem

I meant a hasty generalization.  I miss copy pasted from my fallacy list that I keep while righting to stop me from making mistakes or to check if someone else is using faulty reasoning.  I was making several different points and traveler thought that each time I made one point I was apply that some point to several other points on my argument.

50 minutes ago, Honorless said:

At best, you can argue that you are discussing both sides of the argument, critiquing them but you have not put forward your own hypothesis either. You have broken more rules of formal debate than I can count at this point.

Please point as many out as possible.  I want to correct them.

50 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Such... Errorgance

A bit.  Not quite the assuredness movement.

50 minutes ago, Honorless said:

You have only put forward contradictory statements at all, in fact, to any and all hypothesis- whether made by yourself or by others. Even when someone conceded their point, you then contradicted that as well

Where?

50 minutes ago, Honorless said:

And yet you tell The traveller to "keep the established beliefs

If they want to theorize that established beliefs are wrong they are free to say so.  I gave an example that was clearly much stranger.  My point was that you should not ignore evidence contrary to your theory.

50 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Your arguments here are based on your perspective of the real world

Which ones.

50 minutes ago, Honorless said:

not evidences taken from the book

I sight specific instances and quotes from the book multiple times.

50 minutes ago, Honorless said:

and that perspective of yours is being challenged.

Yes and it should be.

50 minutes ago, Honorless said:

If you find that galling, please just excuse yourself.

I recognize that I may not be likable.  That my writing is often forceful.  That your are a polite person.  However heated arguments can when productively channeled be useful.  If you have a problem with what I am saying point out where say why and ask me to edit.  Same goes for you @Traveller

Edited by Karger
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3 hours ago, Karger said:

These people are obviously not.  Also you are now no longer attacking my argument you are attacking my rhetoric Ad hominem.  This is not something permitted in formal debate.

Really.. and I am supposed to instinctively know what is your argument what is rhetoric!! 

 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

I think you are totally wrong and Dusk says that he agrees with me.  The ones above are trying to advance them to quickly so that they can be treated as an adult civilization.  "We will be childlike still, ignorant, but the laws from above will let the visitors trade with us.  And then they will take this land for themselves."

Irrelevant to whether they are from scadrian or Roshar. 

 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Please stop taking my posts out of contexts and actually read them.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Likewise.. 

may be you can extend the same courtesy to me. 
 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

never said or implied it.  I was attacking two separate parts of your argument.  Attack on Part 1. Laws about ethical treatment of others = Honor(not true)

Attack on part 2. Harmony would not approve.  Neither for that matter would Honor.  However a shard does not determine its people's moral ideals

Does not help either way for the discussion at hand. 
 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

If you want to put forward your own theory about the Ones above being secretly good guys feel free.  I have one myself.

 

Please read my comments again and really read them. That is not at all what I am saying.. I have again and again said they are not good guys they are from Roshar!! And honor does not care about what is moral or ethical and is not necessarily a good shard but honor simply cares about oaths, rules and laws and as Skybreakers training chapters indicate using loopholes is often rewarded in a society such as a shard like honor will create. 
 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

However you can't just say my theory goes against the established narrative despite no evidence and you certainly can't use this to support another unrelated theory.  Based on what we actually know/believe right now.  I think Scadrains are the most obvious choice.  You can disagree but please keep the established beliefs when you do so.

I really don’t care what your theory is. You think Scadrial I think they are Rosharans. I am totally ok with you thinking that they are from Scadrial and you should likewise allow other people to have a contrary view instead of attacking anyone anytime they say something you don’t agree with. 
I am yet to see any other reason from you about why they are Scadrials apart from the fact they you think only they can have the technology needed which I disagree with. You think the wob suggests that it is Scadrial again I disagree. 
As I have pointed out many times already. 

 

55 minutes ago, Honorless said:

At best, you can argue that you are discussing both sides of the argument, critiquing them but you have not put forward your own hypothesis either. You have broken more rules of formal debate than I can count at this point.

Such... Errorgance

You have only put forward contradictory statements at all, in fact, to any and all hypothesis- whether made by yourself or by others. Even when someone conceded their point, you then contradicted that as well. And yet you tell The traveller to "keep the established beliefs". Your arguments here are based on your perspective of the real world, not evidences taken from the book or the author himself, and that perspective of yours is being challenged. If you find that galling, please just excuse yourself.

Agreed. 
 

I have already told you @karger to stop quoting me here. Please I am not here to convert you and you clearly can not convert me into thinking that they are from Scadrial for lack of any valid points brought forward in regard to your theory here. Merely trying to contradict And mid-interpret everything I say, is not going to win you this discussion. 

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2 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Really.. and I am supposed to instinctively know what is your argument what is rhetoric!! 

I do have difficult expressing myself.  I also have a bit of an issue when it is mocked or otherwise made to sound ridiculous.  If you have questions about my meaning please ask them.

4 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Irrelevant to whether they are from scadrian or Roshar. 

This implies that you.  They are being cultivated theory.  Is likely wrong.  At least our in world heroes think so.

5 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Does not help either way for the discussion at hand. 

Yes which is a large reason I dislike your shards determine how people think ethical theory.  It is a theory and if I happen not to agree with it(which I don't) that section of your argument breaks down.

6 minutes ago, The traveller said:

I am yet to see any other reason from you about why they are Scadrials apart from the fact they you think only they can have the technology needed which I disagree with. You think the wob suggests that it is Scadrial again I disagree. 

They have the Tec, it is confirmed that they have the magic, they currently have no problems at home, they are the most wealthy and technologically advanced and Brandon said he is not trying to pull a "got you!" on us.  To me this all says Scadrian.  To the best of my knowledge.  Your counter argument is.  There ethics sound more like this to me.  Would this be an accurate summary of our discussion? 

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To answer your question, and add to my previous observation:

There is nothing holding your arguments together. You continuously contradict yourself. The only thing linking your arguments together is the fact that they are made to oppose whatever is put forth by your 'opponent'.

Your arguments are tenuous and don't even defend a central theme. You have consistently refused to take a stance in your discussions, except in opposition to your 'opponent'.

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