Selish Magic Systems

[Chinsukolo]

So there was some discussion on other threads related to this but I kind of wanted to summarize my "theories" on Selish Magic in one place.  Some are my own, many are influenced by reading others ideas here on 17th Shard.

Brief History summery:   Dominion and Devotion were on Sel, both were shattered by Odium, and then "stuffed" into the CR to prevent them from being taken up by another Shard holder.  Since that time they have mixed and become their own system of Dor.

1st premise:  Location based aspect Magic of Sel is related to Dominion (meaning claimed or sovereign location) **

2nd premise: Since the Shards have merged in the CR nothing is pure one shard or the other anymore (except maybe the Seons/Skaze?)

3rd premise: There are four 6 "known" magics on Sel:  AonDor, Dahkor, Forgery, ChayShan, Potion Making, and BloodSealing 

So on a spectrum from Devotion at 0 and Dominion at 10 I'll try to explain how I think they mixed to produce the variety.  I don't think there are any 0 or 10 because there is no pure thing of either shard left.

 

My thoughts are:

AonDor is more Devotion but became geographically restricted because of the Dominion added to it.   (A 1 or 2 - mostly Devotion with hint of Dominion)

Dahkor is more Dominion - has to be in Fjorden, but even more specifically to a monastery, and the rune have to be carried in the physical bone structure (location) of the body. But it has some Devotion in that it must be done to Religious Monks (A 8-9 mostly Dominion with a hint of Devotion)

ChayShan is Devotion in action (mental focus/meditation) but Geographical restriction to Birth place.  They can carry their magic out of their area, but still have to be Devoted to it even at home. (A 4-5 slightly more Devotion)

Forgery is Dominion in action (that the seal must be in proximity and contact with what it changes to have an effect) and Devotion in production, devoted to research and picturing the intended outcome.  But since so far it appears to be also geographically locked by birth place restriction (i.e. born there to use it, but finished objects can still move) I look at to be more Dominion based.  So a 5-6 on the scale.

Potion Making I got nothing here  See smart people posts below for more info

Blood Sealing This one I think is similar to Forgery in that the Dominion requirement is met in that it has to be placed in a location to seal / unseal

Other spoiler based theories below.

Spoiler

Unrelated to the specifics I also ascribe to the idea that Dor is located to Sel because it was stuffed into the CR.  I think this would have some interesting side effects:

Such as why the IRE need's a Pipe/Wire to get Dor power off of Sel in the Secret History for their base when they try to capture Preservation.

I think Dahkor Monk would still have twisted bones, but without Dor fueling them would they be able to move and ambulate or do their Rune shaped bones carry some inheritant Investiture with them?

I suspect ChayShan would be powerless all together

And that Forged objects might revert to their original state since there wouldn't be Dor to fuel to cognitive change in visual interpretation.

Interestingly I could see Elatrians being able to 'survive' off other investiture I.e. absorb it to sustain themselves and not be Roed (like Vasher and Stormlight) possibly why Galldon can worldhop to Roshar.  But I don't think they could power Aons with it since I don't think they could convert it.

 

 

**(Disclaimer for some this is a Theory based on definition and tangential evidence, there is no explicit WoB)

Edited July 6, 2017 by Chinsukolo
Magic's I forgot

[teknopathetic]

There is one more confirmed magic system - Potion Making. There is a wob stating that the potions used by the priest are magical in nature.. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Spoolofwhool]

Bloodsealing is also another variation.

Keep in mind something interesting. Both bloodsealing and forgery can work outside of their nations of origin. 

[Calderis]

Just now, Spoolofwhool said:

Bloodsealing is also another variation.

Keep in mind something interesting. Both bloodsealing and forgery can work outside of their nations of origin. 

And potions, if I remember correctly, must be made in theirs, but will function outside of it. 

[+Extesian]

6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Bloodsealing is also another variation.

Keep in mind something interesting. Both bloodsealing and forgery can work outside of their nations of origin. 

 Do you know how we know that Spool? I wasn't aware of that and find it very interesting. Did I miss an implication in TES?

[Windrunner]

21 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Bloodsealing is also another variation.

Keep in mind something interesting. Both bloodsealing and forgery can work outside of their nations of origin. 

Forgery is actually subject to the same distance problem AonDor has. I assume they're just close enough to MaiPon that the power drop off is less severe than it is for AonDor, as they move away from their homeland (since as far as we know there's no amplifier for Forgery like Elantris is for AonDor).

Quote

VIPER
Aons look like Arelon; soulstamps look like MaiPon. Aons get weaker when you get further from Arelon, right? That's not just cause Elantris acts like a focus?

BRANDON SANDERSON
That's right, it's based on distance. That's why there are no stamped objects in Elantris.

VIPER
So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?

BRANDON SANDERSON
That's correct.

Source

As far as I know, there's no info on whether or not Bloodsealing weakens with distance, but I wouldn't be surprised if it also was subject to the same issue. So they don't function more effectively, in my opinion, than AonDor does in Teod (except I assume both Dzhammar and MaiPon are closer to the Imperial Seat than Teoin is to Arelon).

24 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And potions, if I remember correctly, must be made in theirs, but will function outside of it. 

Do you recall where you heard this? I've only seen the initial confirmation that Forton's potions were Invested, I didn't realize anyone had asked follow up questions.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Windrunner said:

Do you recall where you heard this? I've only seen the initial confirmation that Forton's potions were Invested, I didn't realize anyone had asked follow up questions.

I have no idea what thread it was. It was long before I got active here, and was lurking. It was probably just speculation. I just remember people discussing the potions, and the fact that Hrathen was able to use one effectively after it had been made and shipped for weeks, and it still did exactly what it was intended to do as evidence. I can't recall if there were any WoBs or not. 

It's definitely possible that the potion making area is just within range of Arelon. It's subject to Shu-Dereth so it can't be much further than Dahkor, and that obviously still worked. 

[Chinsukolo]

@teknopathetic @Calderis

Thanks for Potion Making - Considering Fjorden conquer many counties on that continent and subjected them to She-Dereth.  Perhaps it is specific to one of the areas that was not originally theirs.  If I recall ChayShan is of Jindo and that is now part of Fjorden under Shu-Dereth.

@Windrunner

Thanks for the post on Forgery - that is what I suspected (I put it in spoilers because I mentioned other non-Elatris things).  Nice to know I was on the right track with that one at least =)

@Spoolofwhool

Thanks for BloodSealling, totally forgot.  I can see it's Dominion requirement being met by the fact that it seals a location, or seals Investiture into some bones.  Thinking about it I'm pretty sure they mention BloodSealers are from a region outside of MaiPon, but I'll have to reread it. so it may again be a case of birth location to use it, but effects is limited to physical location it was used.

[Agent34]

Bloodsealers come from a nation that's part of the Rose Empire like MaiPon is, but not from MaiPon IIRC. Personally I think the location dependency of Selish magic is because of the CR and Dominion's influence is in how only people of certain nationalities can use certain magics.

[teknopathetic]

I do wonder how many of these magics existed before the destruction of Dominion and Devotion, or if all these magics are post Odium. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by teknopathetic

[teknopathetic]

I wonder why the isolated nation Theod seems to lack any natural magic? Perhaps the people haven't discovered how to use the geography to their advantage, or maybe the land isn't invested the same way the continent is because of the mountains that block it off? 

Edited July 6, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Crucible of Shards]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I do wonder how many of these magics existed before the destruction of Dominion and Devotion, or if all these magics are post Odium. 

IIRC, D&D were shattered pretty quickly on the timeline, so it isn't likely that the magics were developed to a great degree when the shard holders were still around, if the magics existed at the time.

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Crucible of Shards
Clarity

[The One Who Connects]

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I wonder why the isolated nation Teod seems to lack any natural magic?

I think it's because they are of Aonic descent. Only reason I can really think of.

Quote

Only people who are of Aonic descent can be taken by the Shaod and become Elantrians. The precise reason for this is unknown.

The peoples of Arelon, Teod, and, to a certain extent, Duladel are of Aonic descent.

---

2 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I do wonder how many of these magics existed before the destruction of Dominion and Devotion, or if all these magics are post Odium. 

IIRC, D&D were shattered pretty quickly on the timeline, so it isn't likely that the magics were developed to a great degree when the shard holders were still around, if the magics existed at the time.

You're half right. Magic did exist pre-splintering, but they were different.

Quote

At the recent Idaho Falls book signing I asked Brandon if there was any difference between the magic that exists in Elantris and The Emperors Soul and the magic that existed before the shards on Sel were splintered. He said that "The things that they do in those books, couldn't have been done pre-splintering. They could do different things back then but not what is in the books."

This means that the splintering of the shards on Sel did change the magic systems in some way.

[+Extesian]

To add to @The One Who Connects answer on history of the magic, AU has the same implication, that there wa landscape based magic pre- splintering but that the Dor and it's regionalized magic systems only started after the power was confined to the cognitive realm

Quote

Sel is notable for being dishardic, one of few planets in the cosmere to attract two separate Shards of Adonalsium: Dominion and Devotion. These Shards were extremely influential in the development of human societies on the planet, and most of their traditions and religions can be traced back to these two. Uniquely, the very languages and alphabets used today across the planet were directly influenced by the two Shards. I believe that early on, the Shards took an unconcerned approach to humankind—and society was shaped by the slow, steady discovery of the powers that permeated the landscape. This is difficult to determine for certain now, however, as at some point in the distant past, both Devotion and Dominion were destroyed. Their Investiture—their power—was Splintered, their minds ripped away, their souls sent into the Beyond. I am uncertain whether their power was left to ravage the world untamed for a time, or was immediately contained. This all happened during the days of human prehistory on Sel. At this point, the bulk of the Investiture that made up the powers of Dominion and Devotion is trapped on the Cognitive Realm. Collectively, these powers—which have a polarized relationship—are called the Dor. Forced together as they are, trapped and bursting to escape, they power the various forms of magic on Sel, which are multitude.

 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Just a note about Forgery. It says that soulstamps get weaker the farther they get from MaiPon. Was it confirmed that a stamped item would revert after a distance? The reason why I ask is because I could see something like stamping an object when farther makes it less likely to stick, or make it last less time, but in cases were an object was given a stamp that took perfectly (doesn't need to be reapplied), then it might make sense for it to stay the way it is afterwards. To recap; I think that there are two ways soulstamping might decrease in power over distance:
1. The father from MaiPon you are, the less "sticky" a stamp is, but once a stamp has "stuck", distance is no longer an issue, since the Investiture is already invested and the spiritual aspect already rewritten.
2. The farther from MaiPon an object is, the less duration a seal will have, till it eventually fades completely. I'm assuming that this would mean that keeping an object's spiritual aspect rewritten requires a stream of investiture, not just a single burst of it.

BTW, I'm probably using thr wrong terms to describe what a Soulstamp does Realmatically to an object. I'm fairly sure the change is spiritual, though it could also be cognitive in nature.

[The One Who Connects]

13 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

I'm fairly sure the change is spiritual, though it could also be cognitive in nature.

It's spiritual.

Quote

Question

So a Soulstamp doesn’t necessarily change the core of your Spiritual--

Brandon Sanderson

It does, but it’s overriding it. It’s like Hemalurgy. What you are is still there underneath when it’s ripped away.

As for your actual theory, I like it. For stamps that don't need to be reapplied, it makes sense. Biggest issue is the WoB Windrunner posted, because "get weaker" is vague enough to have multiple interpetations

[Windrunner]

Well the first bit though seems to indicate to me that the second hypothesis is the case. If the Soulstamp was applied in MaiPon and could be brought anywhere, then there would be able to be stamped objects in Elantris, which Brandon directly says there isn't.

[+Extesian]

3 hours ago, Windrunner said:

Well the first bit though seems to indicate to me that the second hypothesis is the case. If the Soulstamp was applied in MaiPon and could be brought anywhere, then there would be able to be stamped objects in Elantris, which Brandon directly says there isn't.

Yeah my take is that a soulstamp is more comparable to allomancy, or the need for a Returned to consume investiture to keep their soul stapled to their body. Like with metal, where external investiture is ‘shaped’ into a certain wavelength, a soulstamp shapes external investiture into a wavelength that reprograms a spiritual aspect (by essentially rewriting past Connections) – but like metal burning away and needing to be replaced, the flow of investiture essentially overwhelms that refocusing-shape to the point it burns it out, at which point the stamp needs to be applied again. But I think the Returned analogy may be better. A Returned first needs a large amount of investiture (a Divine Breath) to infuse the soul into a Cognitive Shadow and attach it to the body (like when an object is first stamped) but then the Returned must consume investiture to stay intact. I think this is really how soulstamping works. You design the stamp (which filters investiture), the initial stamping causes a flood of investiture to change the spiritweb, but then there is a constant trickle of investiture needed to maintain that change, a change which would otherwise stop and the spiritweb would revert to its ‘default’ state. The difference of course is that a Returned needs one packet of investiture a week , whereas I think soulstamping requires a constant trickle.

Anyway that’s my tentative head canon on how soulstamps work. I’m curious to hear any disagreement J

[J. Grimm]

Here's something I've been thinking about ever since reading about stamping:

 

***Note, I'm brand new to these forums and my theory contains spoilers from the Wax & Wayne books, so I wanted to put this here first. If there's a better way to do this, please just let me know!***

 

 

 

 

Since we know that stamps lose their effectiveness as they move away from MaiPon, wouldn't being able to use Feruchemistic bands of duralumin solve that problem? Since they store connection, if a person in MaiPon was given a band of nicrosil and duralumin, I believe that they could fill the metal mind, then tap it whenever they needed to use a stamp. 

Sanderson has talked about how certain magic systems in the Cosmere could work together, which is what led me to this theory.

Edited July 28, 2017 by J. Grimm

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

2 hours ago, J. Grimm said:

Since we know that stamps lose their effectiveness as they move away from MaiPon, wouldn't being able to use Feruchemistic bands of duralumin solve that problem? Since they store connection, if a person in MaiPon was given a band of nicrosil and duralumin, I believe that they could fill the metal mind, then tap it whenever they needed to use a stamp. 

Well, that depends. See, if the stamp only needs investiture when it's being stamped, then it should work. But if it requires a steady stream of investiture, then the stamp would fail the moment you stopped tapping the metal mind. Essentially, if it's possible for you to stamp an object in MaiPon, then bring it off-world without the stamp reverting, then your solution should work. If it would fail once it was far enough from MaiPon, then the stamp should only last as long as you are tapping your metal mind. Still might be useful, but much less so.

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, J. Grimm said:

Since we know that stamps lose their effectiveness as they move away from MaiPon, wouldn't being able to use Feruchemistic bands of duralumin solve that problem? Since they store connection, if a person in MaiPon was given a band of nicrosil and duralumin, I believe that they could fill the metal mind, then tap it whenever they needed to use a stamp. 

I think you're close, but not quite. 

Connection is spiritual trait in the Cosmere. A user of any one of Sel's magics needs connection to their homeland in order to use their magic to begin with. If this was the only thing necessary, there wouldn't be a distance limitation to begin with, only a limit to who could use each system. 

The problem appears to be a matter of regionalization in the Dor itself. It's not a matter of overcoming your own connection to the Dor, because the Dor is everywhere on Sel. It's about making the localized system function by the rules of a different region, which seems like it would need a way to hack the system itself. 

[J. Grimm]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I think you're close, but not quite. 

Connection is spiritual trait in the Cosmere. A user of any one of Sel's magics needs connection to their homeland in order to use their magic to begin with. If this was the only thing necessary, there wouldn't be a distance limitation to begin with, only a limit to who could use each system. 

The problem appears to be a matter of regionalization in the Dor itself. It's not a matter of overcoming your own connection to the Dor, because the Dor is everywhere on Sel. It's about making the localized system function by the rules of a different region, which seems like it would need a way to hack the system itself. 

That's a good point. I suppose it would depend on if the act of filling the metal mind transfers Dor along with the connection.

Because if so, then I think what @Lord Maelstrom said above could be true - that using the stamp while taping the metal mind would work, but the time frame would be restricted to how much/long the investiture lasts.

After thinking about it a bit more, that seems like the more plausible scenario. Still though, even being able to stamp an object (or person) for a short amount to of time could have its benefits.

[+Extesian]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think you're close, but not quite. 

Connection is spiritual trait in the Cosmere. A user of any one of Sel's magics needs connection to their homeland in order to use their magic to begin with. If this was the only thing necessary, there wouldn't be a distance limitation to begin with, only a limit to who could use each system. 

The problem appears to be a matter of regionalization in the Dor itself. It's not a matter of overcoming your own connection to the Dor, because the Dor is everywhere on Sel. It's about making the localized system function by the rules of a different region, which seems like it would need a way to hack the system itself. 

Buuut if you added tapping investiture I wonder if it would work. Or if you had what the IRE have. Because we know that gaining Connection to the area of Sel could give you access to it. Then the limitation of distance is because you're drawing on external investiture that is regionalized. If you carry investiture with you, and Connection, maybe it could work. The questions are whether you can store connection to the right place and whether you need some kind of hack to make stored investiture power a soul stamp. We don't know enough about those two feruchemical powers. I think a hack would be necessary. 

[Nathrangking]

If a practitioner of ChayShan came to Roshar and bonded with a spren the raw strength and speed of the practitioner might render shardplate useless.

[Calderis]

29 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

If a practitioner of ChayShan came to Roshar and bonded with a spren the raw strength and speed of the practitioner might render shardplate useless.

Spoiler

 

Without the door they'd be no different than Szeth. 

They'd know a martial art and be enhanced by Stormlight. 

 

SA spoilers 

The Dor is inaccessible off world.