Raoden holds the dual shard of Benevolence

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

On 7/5/2017 at 6:22 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Hoid was able to travel though the CR in its dangerous state in order to arrive on Sel. His being in another place does not mean as much as the others do.

If it is about the Ire, then some are pre-Reod(dangerous), and some are after(may/may not be dangerous). This means that there is a way for Elantrians to get into the CR while it was dangerous. This really seems to undermine the whole "travel there is dangerous" shtick that Brandon keeps saying, so I'm unsure.

I suspect that when Brandon says that traveling through the Sel CR is dangerous, it really is dangerous, and I don't think it is undermined.

a. Hoid. If I can reference Sixth of the Dusk, going on that island is really dangerous, but someone who is familiar with the dangers of the island can maneuver through it over and over again without dying. Eventually, he'll probably die, but he can still last several dozen trips. Hoid might have enough knowledge of Shards, Investiture, etc. to navigate the Selish CR with relatively low risk (say, 5% chance of death), which is how he got through. Meanwhile, others might have much higher odds of dying.

b. IRE. Notice how their base isn't on Sel? I mean, there might be one on Sel, but I doubt it. It seems to me that they have enough experience in the Selish CR that they can get some recruits off the planet. However, we only know of the IRE personnel who got off the planet alive. For all we know, two thirds of the people who entered the CR in sell died without reaching their destination. All we know is that some got through.

Now, this does break apart the argument supporting the fact that Benevolence is making the CR safer, as A. Worldhoppers like Khriss would have noticed, and B. The fact that people got off makes sense either way.

[king of nowhere]

On 5/7/2017 at 3:47 PM, Calderis said:

We've been told that we have the clues needed to figure out the ending, but no real idea where it is. 

We "know" the ending in the same way that having a treasure map with its X in the other side of the world means I have a treasure, even though I haven't started digging it up yet. 

not reallly, because in that case at least we know where the treasure is, we only need to go there digging. in this case we have a map and we're told that the treasure is somewhere in it, only we have no idea where, and we don't even know how the treasure looks like, nor could we recognize it if we accidentally stumbled upon it.

[Calderis]

48 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

not reallly, because in that case at least we know where the treasure is, we only need to go there digging. in this case we have a map and we're told that the treasure is somewhere in it, only we have no idea where, and we don't even know how the treasure looks like, nor could we recognize it if we accidentally stumbled upon it.

Yeah. I didn't want to carry the analogy that far, but I totally agree. 

[Thanatos]

I think the ending is the vision of Honor with Dalinar where Roshar is falling apart. 

But thats just a guess

[Just another guyn]

On 7/4/2017 at 0:55 AM, Lord Maelstrom said:

Really wacky theory, and probably wrong, but hear me out.

First off, "Benevolence" is the name I am giving to the Shard that would come of a combination of Dominion and Devotion. Came up with the name when hearing Raoden describe himself as a dictator. He is a dictator and a tyrant, embodying Dominion in his control of New Elantris, at the same time, his people love him, and not only does he devote himself to them, he teaches them to devote themselves to their work to escape the pain, thus also embodying Devotion. Best way to describe this to me would be a Benevolent Dictator. Let me know if you have a better name for a combination of Dominion and Devotion (Kinda like how Harmony is the name of Ruin+Preservation).

Part two of the theory. Haven't looked this up too much, so it might already be accepted knowledge, but here you go. Odium shattered both Dominion and Devotion. This destroyed their consciousnesses, as well as locking their power in the cognitive realm, in a shattered form. I am assuming that this is what is making travel in Sel's area of Shadesmar dangerous; the shattered power of a shard is searching for purpose and is quite volatile. The Dor is in fact the collection of Devotion and Dominion's power, stuck in the cognitive realm and trying to escape. Something in the shattering also stops it from reforming a consciousness, though I'm not sure if that is by keeping it apart (shattered) or it is through some other means. However, I think it is safe to assume that Dominion and Devotion are united as a single power now, almost like a shattered Harmony might be.

Part three has to do with Raoden's Dor attacks. For reference, he is the relevant part of Chapter 37:

Here, he feels the Dor, as this vast power, making worlds seem insignificant. However, there are a couple lines I'd like to call attention to. First "without crack". To me this seems to say that the shattered pieces aren't separated physically. No, to me it seems to say that something is keeping the sentience of the shards shattered and unformed (thus the "It was not evil, or even sentient." line), while the power is somewhat whole and unite in the Cognitive realm, even if it is volatile and dangerous.

A shard's power tends to try and find a host, preferably one that can actually hold the shard (ie has a similar character to it's ideal). To me it seems like Raoden is the first person who is both an Elantrian (read, connection to the Dor) and the odd mix of both Devotion and Dominion's intents. This annotation from Elantris' 31st chapter would seem to confirm this:

With a bit of twisting, those two traits could be seen as Dominion and Devotion. Seems suspicious that Brandon would use the term "two defining traits" if intent plays such a big part in Shard lore and mechanics.

So, what I think is happening is that the Dor is trying to find a host, but something that Odium did when shattering it is stopping it. And any attempt to absorb the shard is extremely painful to the host, due to a lingering shattering effect from Odium to stop a new host or due to the volatility of the current state of the Dor. Also, for some reason, being a fallen elantrian allows the Dor to try and take you as a host, assuming you have the connection required. If there ever was another Elantrian who, like Raoden, had the character to hold the Dor, then they have perished and been forgotten by the time Raoden becomes an elantrian.

All that to say, I think that Raoden, after becoming settled as an Elantrian wouldn't have given up his passion with understanding the Dor. And that it would keep trying to take him. Maybe as a full elantrian, the effects would be different than pain, but I don't know. Regardless, Raoden would figure it out, and would eventually take on the power of both Dominion and Devotion, becoming the shard Benevolence.

Other points:

• Somehow the Cognitive realm becomes safe enough for travel some time after Elantris, as Galladon finds his way to Roshar. It would make sense if someone has taken in all of that volatile power.
• The Dor attacks was one of the unresolved mysteries of Elantris. Why was it important to the plot? Just so there was urgency to Raoden after the bands joined? (as per the annotations.) I don't think so. The Dor attacks seem too well thought out. To me it smells like a strand of a Cosmere level plot. Something to lead into a sequel.
• The "glowing" during the Dor attacks would seem similar to the description of Vin right before her body melted away. In fact, here is another passage from Elantris which almost says this. It's when Raoden gets attacked by the Dor during a conversation with Sarene:

 

So, there you go. My theory is that some time after Elantris (maybe in a sequel) Raoden takes up the mantle of the shattered power of both Dominion and Devotion, becoming a shard who's intent is very similar to that of a benevolent dictator. Thus the name Benevolence.

Edit: Thanks to @The One Who Connects for catching that I wrote Domination instead of Dominion a couple times.

I personally have always thought of them as "unity" since that is mentioned in the book as a term several times to describe the two predominant religions.

[+Extesian]

 I've always thought of the combined Shard as S&M 

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Extesian said:

 I've always thought of the combined Shard as S&M 

That is both very very wrong... 

And fitting. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

23 minutes ago, Extesian said:

 I've always thought of the combined Shard as S&M 

Am I the only person who didn't get it?

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Am I the only person who didn't get it?

I'd suggest you don't attempt to look it up unless you're of legal age

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Just now, Calderis said:

I'd suggest you don't attempt to look it up unless you're of legal age

Thanks. I am, but I won't anyways .

[+Extesian]

2 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Am I the only person who didn't get it?

It's pushing the bounds of etiquette on this site so it's probably good if most people don't get it

[Yitzi2]

On 7/4/2017 at 9:15 AM, Thanatos said:

I think the next dual shard wil be either:

1. Cultivation/Odium; or

2. Autonomy/Odium.

Rayse really doesn't want to take up any other Shards, and if someone else were to take up something alongside Odium (after Rayse is killed), it'd likely be Honor.  (Kaladin might very well have the necessary attunement to both Honor and Odium...but that would be the end of book 10, not book 5.  More likely, Rayse won't die until the end of Mistborn age 4.)

[Forerunner]

1 hour ago, Yitzi2 said:

Rayse really doesn't want to take up any other Shards, and if someone else were to take up something alongside Odium (after Rayse is killed), it'd likely be Honor.  (Kaladin might very well have the necessary attunement to both Honor and Odium...but that would be the end of book 10, not book 5.  More likely, Rayse won't die until the end of Mistborn age 4.)

Someone else pointed this out in another thread, but I'm having trouble remembering where. So, I'll just paraphrase.

Perhaps Kaladin could take up both Honor and Odium, but it seems more likely for (Spoilers for end of WoR)

Spoiler

Nale to take both up. As we see at the end of WoR, he is bound by his own code of ethics (Honor) and punishes those who break it (Odium). 

That's the theory I'm most inclined to believe.

[Thanatos]

Yeah i know Odium doesnt want his intent contaminated by picking up another shard. I expect him to die at the end of Stormlight arc1.

I really doubt someone other than a shard can put together a shattered shard. Given Odiums doing the shattering to prevent shards being picked up he would do a good job of it. 

My opinion is something outside of a single shard bearers awareness, like Harmony. He would have the awareness and power to do this. This maybe one of the many reasons Odium is scared of Harmony. Harmony can/may undo what Odium is doing.

Otherwise Cultivation would have put Honor back together making the fight against Odium easier. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Thanatos

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

4 hours ago, Thanatos said:

I really doubt someone other than a shard can put together a shattered shard. Given Odiums doing the shattering to prevent shards being picked up he would do a good job of it.

Well, what if Rayse gets killed, and someone picks up his shard without it splintering? Then that person collects Honor's power, and thus become the dual shard of Odium/Honor. 

[Thanatos]

Nope my theory is only a double shard or more can do this. Not a single shard otherwise Cultivation would have reassembled Honor. 

Or one of the unknown 6 shards reassembling Devotion, Dominion or Abition. 

Thats why i theorize it take more than one shard holder to do this. Such as Harmony.

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Nope my theory is only a double shard or more can do this. Not a single shard otherwise Cultivation would have reassembled Honor. 

Or one of the unknown 6 shards reassembling Devotion, Dominion or Abition. 

Thats why i theorize it take more than one shard holder to do this. Such as Harmony.

There's something we're missing on reassembling a Shard but I strongly doubt it's raw power.

Sazes himself implies it's connection. He was connected to both shards, and was able to pick up both. Simply holding both is causing them to intermingle and reintigration. 

Splintering is essentially a miniaturized version of the Shattering, so this implies that in order to rebuild a Shard you'd need to connect to, and hold, all of the splinters long enough for them to become one again. 

So I think the issue is less one of power, and more one of complexity due to too many pieces. 

If we see these things put back together, I'd like to see what Brandon does to make it work. 

[Thanatos]

Calderis. 

Thats why i say Harmony's massive awareness and power. 

Also im not saying Harmony would pick the reassembled shard up, just reassemble it.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Calderis. 

Thats why i say Harmony's massive awareness and power. 

Also im not saying Harmony would pick the reassembled shard up, just reassemble it.

Well if Harmony is an example of how it works, picking it all up and reassembling it are the same thing 

[Thanatos]

Calderis.

Its only a theory. Wouldnt go so far as to call it an example.

Putting a shattered shard back together and absorbing it are two different things. 

He may put it back together but not be able it pick it up. 

Or he may now have a greater connection to Uncle Andy now that he has two shards. 

We can only speculate 

Edit..

Calderis, i suppose it would be an example. Apologies read the post wrong. Had a pub lunch today and responded when i got back to work

Edited July 18, 2017 by Thanatos

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

OK, here is an update to my theory on splinter reforming.

My current head-cannon on Shard reassembling (which is mostly based on HoA/Sazed) is that someone who takes up a "critical mass" of loose investiture ascends. Once they do so, it would make it much easier for them to hunt down and absorb other loose investiture. This is mostly based on the idea that splinters are very similar to shards, with the exception that splinters do not have the "critical mass" that gives one the shardic body (ie makes them ascend). The reason Adonalsium wasn't reforged this way: The 16 shards were all taken up, ergo there wasn't any loose investiture. Part of what is stopping this from happening to splintered shards? The loose investiture is either inaccessible (the Dor), or isn't actually loose and has a vessel or sentience holding it (Seons, Skaze, Unmade, Spren, ect.)

Lets take this and apply it to various events:

The death of Adonalsium. When he died his investiture split into 16 parts. 16 people came and took up the investiture of each part, ascending and becoming the shards as we know them. Because they were working together (at least, at first), no one tried to take up more than one shard portion. If one of the vessels were to die, then the investiture would most likely be loose, and anyone could take it up.

Preservation & Ruin. When Leras died, his investiture had very little time being "loose". Kelsier took it up almost immediately, then when Vin was going to take it up, he released it. After her death, it was easily taken up by Sazed. Thus, each time the shardholder died, or released the shard, another took his place, and most of these ascensions seemed as natural as letting it in. The exception is Kelsier, who had to use a device to do it, seeing as he had no body. As for Ati, once he died, his shard was also loose, and also taken up by Sazed.

Devotion & Dominion. Odium splintered these two. Not sure how he weakened them enough to do so, but the point is moot. Once he splintered them, he didn't want to take up the shard's themselves as they would interfere with his intent, and he didn't want to leave them there where anyone (or any shard) could take them up. So he made a large portion of the investiture inaccessible by somehow merging them in an unstable and chaotic way, and compressing them into the CR. The Seons and Skaze remained as splinters of D&D, but didn't cause any worry as they didn't have enough investiture for someone to ascend. Plus, Odium might have been in a hurry to avoid investing in the Selish system. Now, I am starting to suspect that the reason we have the Seons and Skaze as Splinters, and not in the CR, is because they might actually predate the splintering of D&D. That or some of the investiture spilled into the PR. That investiture either somehow survived long enough without being taken up by the natives to form sentience of their own, or were somehow given sentience by someone. Regardless, to reform wither shard individually would probably be a nightmare, and since the Dor is pretty much a single power, if someone were to somehow absorb enough of it (without dying) to ascend (no idea how they would do that, though using the pool at Elantris might work), they might be able to organise and absorb the rest, forming a dual shard, minus the investiture in the Seons/Skaze. If the shard wanted to absorb that investiture, it would have to kill the splinters and take up the now loose investiture.

Honor. A lot of gaps with this one. My guess is that when Tanavast died, a large portion of his investiture was either formed into splinters, taken up by someone (unlikely), or also locked up like the Dor. Probably a combo of all three. Considering that Cultivation didn't take up the loose investiture, I take that to mean that she actually preferred the state it was in to holding it herself, or Odium was somehow stopping her from doing so. One idea could be that the "prison" holding Odium is physically made up of a large portion of Honor's investiture. Regardless, to reforge Honor would require someone to free up a critical mass of Honor's investiture and take it up. Possibly freeing Odium in the process (if the investiture forms Odium's prison), or requiring one to kill lots of spren (considering that quite a few of the spren are splinters of Honor.)

Ambition. No idea. He is a total blank for me. Other than a theory that his investiture is locked up in the Iriali. Whoever holds his power however, they don't hold enough critical mass or they would have ascended and Honor would not be considered a splintered shard). And if you were to kill enough of the splinterholders/splinters then you would be able to achieve critical mass and ascend.

Honestly, though, I feel like a lot of this theory is based on a line from The One Who Connects:

On 7/10/2017 at 8:08 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Not necessarily. Once you reach critical mass and ascend (probably be half-done, enough to constitute a Shard), then it becomes much easier.

 

@Thanatos Point is, if this is right, then it means that reassembling a shard would almost certainly mean taking it up. It might be possible for a shard to gather up the investiture in one location without taking it up, but it would probably be pointless. It would be like if someone cut a pie in a hundred pieces, then insisted on piecing them back exactly how they were, so someone could eat the pie whole, instead of just eating the pie piece by piece.

[AbsentKeeper]

On 7/19/2017 at 1:13 AM, Lord Maelstrom said:

It might be possible for a shard to gather up the investiture in one location without taking it up, but it would probably be pointless.

We already know that a shard CAN do this, as Odium gathered the power of Dominion and Devotion in the cognitive realm, unless they just gathered there naturally after they were splintered.

It would only be pointless for personal gain. If you're right, and being a more powerful shardholder already would make the power easier to gather, this would make someone like Harmony capable of gathering up a splintered shard for someone else to take it and ascend, which would be helpful in a number of ways (backup for defeating 'evil' shards, avoiding contaminating his intent, ect)

Edited July 26, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

6 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

We already know that a shard CAN do this, as Odium gathered the power of Dominion and Devotion in the cognitive realm, unless they just gathered there naturally after they were splintered.

It would only be pointless for personal gain. If you're right, and being a more powerful shardholder already would make the power easier to gather, this would make someone like Harmony capable of gathering up a splintered shard for someone else to take it and ascend, which would be helpful in a number of ways (backup for defeating 'evil' shards, avoiding contaminating his intent, ect)

The difference is that Odium placed Dominion and Devotion in the CR when he killed them, so their power was still essentially in one place. He didn't have to hunt down the various splinters and pieces.

[Calderis]

38 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

The difference is that Odium placed Dominion and Devotion in the CR when he killed them, so their power was still essentially in one place. He didn't have to hunt down the various splinters and pieces.

And the CR isn't exactly "one place." D&D fill the entirety of Sel

[AbsentKeeper]

50 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And the CR isn't exactly "one place." D&D fill the entirety of Sel

I just meant that it is a concrete example of a shard manipulating another's investiture without taking it up. You can take that however you will, it could support a lot of different theories in the right light.