The Lost Metal

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Where does this idea come from, I've seen it a couple of times now and at least the way I understood it in book, the set are only interested in spreading powers among themselves. Widespread powers would run counter to their interests. 

That's what I thought as well, but since it has been a while since I read the book I just went with it.

[Shrimple]

2 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

That's along the lines of what I was thinking. If Feruchemy is acquired via Harmonium similar to Lerasium, it could be an interesting explanation for the origin of Feruchemy since we don't have a solid explanation for where it originally came from. If the Lost Metal is Harmonium and it does work this way, it would also fit in the the Set's mission of making powers more available.

I hope nobody tries to swallow it, Ettmetal explodes when in contact with water.

[Yitzi2]

On 7/4/2017 at 11:30 AM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Just want to quickly throw my crazy idea in. In BOM we see the first instances of Harmonium, a metal with unknown affects. I thought it might be interesting if the "Lost Metal" name might be referring to Harmonium, a metal that only has (potentially) appeared once before in Scadrialian history.

I was thinking that since Preservation and Ruin worked together in order to create life on Scadrial, this cooperation could have resulted in a temporary Harmony shard. At this point, since they were new Shards they might have allowed some Harmonium to form before Preservation trapped Ruin.

 

When something has never been seen by human beings, I don't consider that "lost" so much as "never known in the first place".  "Lost" implies that it once was fairly well-known, and then became lost.

[Shrimple]

42 minutes ago, Yitzi2 said:

When something has never been seen by human beings, I don't consider that "lost" so much as "never known in the first place".  "Lost" implies that it once was fairly well-known, and then became lost.

So if Harmonium is an alloy of both Lerasium and Atium, I wonder if The Set are going to try to seperate the alloy in to its respective metals. Which makes sense with their motives of trying to breed allomancers, seeing as they would now have lerasium. Has anyone asked Brandon if that's possible? Those metals were lost weren't they?

[Pagerunner]

37 minutes ago, Shrimple said:

So if Harmonium is an alloy of both Lerasium and Atium, I wonder if The Set are going to try to seperate the alloy in to its respective metals. Which makes sense with their motives of trying to breed allomancers, seeing as they would now have lerasium. Has anyone asked Brandon if that's possible? Those metals were lost weren't they?

Harmonium is not an alloy - we have learned that it is actually a single metal. We also know that its reaction with water may leave behind something important to the cosmere (just not Harmonium oxide), so that might be atium or lerasium. I would expect that any sort of nuclear transformation would be too energetic.

But the Set may believe differently, so they might indeed experiment with Harmonium. I just don't expect them to have much success.

[Yitzi2]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Harmonium is not an alloy - we have learned that it is actually a single metal. We also know that its reaction with water may leave behind something important to the cosmere (just not Harmonium oxide), so that might be atium or lerasium.

I doubt it; while it's possible that it would leave both, that would mean that a Harmonium reaction is one of decomposition, whereas it sounded more like it's more like a matter/antimatter reaction.  Atium and Lerasium don't really seem to be "important to the Cosmere" to the extent that phrase would suggest.

My best guess is that what it leaves behind is pure (i.e. not associated with any Shard) Investiture.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Yitzi2

[+hwiles]

Something to consider: If harmonium could grant people feruchemy, southerners would probably have found out by now, and metalborn probably wouldn't be so rare among them.  The idea that the southerner's struggle to survive and their lack of access to the metallic arts led them to create a mechanical means of hacking the magic system is a pretty huge plot point that would be thoroughly undercut if they were unknowingly sitting on a stash of feruchemy-granting metal...

[Kingsdaughter613]

I actually think it's a Atium/Lerasium Alloy (Leratium)that could grant Feruchemy by being tapped. Harmonium is not Leratium, so wouldn't necessarily have that ability.

It seems to be able to store and fuel allomancy/feruchemy outside of the allomancer. Store, like feruchemy; fuel, like allomancy; it's the Ruin aspect that's tricky, but it does consume the charge. Maybe something is lost when charging, like Hemalurgy? Harmonium also blows up, so Ruin?

Edited July 10, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[StrikerEZ]

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I actually think it's a Atium/Lerasium Alloy (Leratium)that could grant Feruchemy by being tapped. Harmonium is not Leratium, so wouldn't necessarily have that ability.

It seems to be able to store and fuel allomancy/feruchemy outside of the allomancer. Store, like feruchemy; fuel, like allomancy; it's the Ruin aspect that's tricky, but it does consume the charge. Maybe something is lost when charging, like Hemalurgy? Harmonium also blows up, so Ruin?

Well we have a WoB that explicitly states that harmonium is not an alloy, it is its own metal, just like atium or lerasium. (@Calderis @Extesian @The One Who Connects any help?  Sorry for using you guys so much lol)

[Calderis]

@StrikerEZ I'm pretty sure we owe this one all to @Pagerunner and this thread. 

I haven't had time to dig through it, but if the WoB exists, it's definitely in there. 

Edit: nah, that thread is essentially a WoB. At least the first post. It's Pagerunner summing up his conversation with Brandon and extrapolating from it. So there's the info. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Calderis

[StrikerEZ]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@StrikerEZ I'm pretty sure we owe this one all to @Pagerunner and this thread. 

I haven't had time to dig through it, but if the WoB exists, it's definitely in there. 

Edit: nah, that thread is essentially a WoB. At least the first post. It's Pagerunner summing up his conversation with Brandon and extrapolating from it. So there's the info. 

Yes, thank you. And sorry Pagerunner for not giving you enough recognition for that lol

[+Extesian]

@StrikerEZ @Calderis it has been quoted in that thread but for convenience, here is the follow up that @Ironeyes did for Pagerunner at the Boskone signing.  It's on the actual sub atomic structure. 

Quote

53:32]
Ironeyes: So harmonium, we have a working theory that the reason it's so volatile is because some of the subatomic particles are associated with Ruin and some of them are [of?] Preservation. Is that true?
A: Yeah, that's basically what's going on is that it's creating a very unstable metal. Now, it is in the nature of the Cosmere not a compound but an element. But, you could call it a subatomic particle sure. It's very volatile because it is in nature spiritually in contrast with itself. And so though it is a single element rather than a compound, the spiritual nature is not happy as it is, and you can set up in the physical realm, through reactivity things that would just rip it apart and really your energy is not, your energy in that is actually pulling from the Spiritual realm, and so that's why it can be so much more explosive than even the chemistry would account for.
Ironeyes: So it's not that the subatomic particles are invested, it's that they have a spiritual identity which causes them to...
A: Yes.
Ironeyes: So then it's not creating an oxide because after the spiritual energy goes away from the explosion[unintelligible] metal, right?
A: Right, and...
Ironeyes: So you can't find harmonium oxide in the water afterwards.
A: Right right right right. Because it's not, it's, yeah.  But you might be able to find something else, which is really relevant to the cosmere. And to Scadrial.
Ironeyes: So the core elements, the core particles, having extra repulsion causes them to have a nuclear potential.
A: I would not call it nuclear because it's not the same exact thing. But there is a cosmere equivalent, to... I mean, you could do nuclear power just the same in the cosmere, but since we have a third kind of state of matter, right, matter, energy, Investiture, you have a third axis that you know, you can release energy from matter, you can release investiture from matter, and things like that. So it's similar, but following its own rules that I have a little more... that are controlled by me, right. But are built on this idea. So once you add [unintelligible for a few syllables] that matter can now exist in this third state, you get all sorts of weird things, which one of the things that happens is, you can get an energy release in sort of the same way. A reaction, I'm not going to call it a nuclear reaction, but of the same vein.

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

10 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Well we have a WoB that explicitly states that harmonium is not an alloy, it is its own metal, just like atium or lerasium. (@Calderis @Extesian @The One Who Connects any help?  Sorry for using you guys so much lol)

I'm aware; the premise of the argument was based on Leratium NOT being Harmonium. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear.

[+ILuvHats]

Hmmmmm... I wonder if Kelsier's spike is the Lost Metal (no matter whether it's Atium or Leratium or whatever).  I don't remember any mention of any spikes on him other than the one through his eye.  Maybe Sanderson just never mentioned them, but it seems unrealistic that he'd spike himself 16 times to become Fullborn.  First of all, he'd be susceptible to Harmoniums control and second, his sDNA would be pretty messed up.  It would be pretty convenient if his eye spike happens to be the lost metal and allowed him to become a Full born, though perhaps he achieved this in another manner.

[The One Who Connects]

3 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

Maybe Sanderson just never mentioned them, but it seems unrealistic that he'd spike himself 16 times to become Fullborn.

It'd actually be.. oh, are we assuming the body he used had access to the Mistborn or Feruchemist powerset already?
I wouldn't put it past Kelsier to do just that though. Ruin still had difficulty controlling Marsh with his 22 spikes, and Kelsier would only have 16-17. Yes, he'd be open to Harmony's influence, but that doesn't seem like something Sazed would do to him.

[+ILuvHats]

First of, yes, I was assuming Kelsier's body was still Mistborn since it would be linked to his sDNA.  And I see your point that Kelsier is ambitious enough to spike himself 16 times.  Still, it's hard to see Kelsier putting himself that much under Harmonys control.  Harmony was already resistant to him resurrecting, as at the end of SH he lied to Kelsier, telling him there was no way for him to enter the Physical realm again.  Plus, I've always thought of Kelsier as having his own agenda.  And if his goals ever crossed with Harmonys completely, then I wouldn't put it past Harmony to stop him.  True, Kelsier seemed to be doing the right thing after he initially came back and saved the Southern Scadrians.  Perhaps doing so was part of his agreement with Harmony for coming back, or maybe he did simply want to help them.  But what has he been doing since?  Probably doing his own thing, possibly against Harmonys will. 

Also, note that Marsh who is spiked a lot, is serving Harmony, even if he's allowed to have his own opinions about stuff.  Why wouldn't Harmony do the same to Kelsier if he spiked himself 16 times?

[The One Who Connects]

On 7/13/2017 at 10:08 PM, ILuvHats said:

First of, yes, I was assuming Kelsier's body was still Mistborn since it would be linked to his sDNA.

I don't like this logic because OreSeur used his bones at the end of TFE. I'm not sure Kelsier's "body" still exists, even if his bones did, and that's a question of where the sDNA line gets drawn. Questions which will almost never have answers..

On 7/13/2017 at 10:08 PM, ILuvHats said:

Why wouldn't Harmony do the same to Kelsier if he spiked himself 16 times?

Because it isn't a very Sazed thing to do to a friend(former or current). In a pinch, controlling Marsh and/or Kel might end up having to happen, but it doesn't seem like something that'll happen very much. The other reason is that he already has Marsh on his side, and he's fairly strong in his own right. Held back by his Intent as he may be, I feel that a situation requiring Sazed to directly control a Fullborn and a near Mistborn to deal with something is a situation where he should be able to act more conventionally(ie: his powers).

[+hwiles]

So I've seen people argue that Kelsier could have a bunch of spikes hidden on his body before, but recall:

Harmony doesn't let people spike themselves that much.  Suit limited himself to 3 spikes because, above that, Harmony's influence over members of the Set became intrusively great, and it's implied that he used that influence directly; otherwise suit probably would've made himself a fullborn.  I've always taken this to mean that Harmony possesses people after they insert 4 spikes because he so strongly disagrees with using hemalurgy.

Marsh got grandfathered in but I think Harmony would have a serious problem with Kelsier spiking himself too much, especially since it would mean he had to hunt and kill ferrings of metals that weren't known about during the FE...

[cometaryorbit]

10 hours ago, hwiles said:

So I've seen people argue that Kelsier could have a bunch of spikes hidden on his body before, but recall:Harmony doesn't let people spike themselves that much.  Suit limited himself to 3 spikes because, above that, Harmony's influence over members of the Set became intrusively great, and it's implied that he used that influence directly; otherwise suit probably would've made himself a fullborn.  I've always taken this to mean that Harmony possesses people after they insert 4 spikes because he so strongly disagrees with using hemalurgy.

The Set seem to be working for an 'alien' power hostile to Scadrial as a whole; Harmony interfering with them doesn't mean he would interfere with Kelsier, even if he disapproved of what Kell did.

Also, if the Set knew that more spikes would let Harmony control them, they'd have avoided doing it even if he wouldn't actually control them, because they couldn't know he'd refrain from doing so.

[Nathrangking]

malatium is technically the lost metal.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Nethrangking said:

malatium is technically the lost metal.

As an atium alloy, that would be included in atium. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

If Kell had had more spikes Wax would have noticed; past a certain point they become painful. In addition four of the needed attribute spikes definitely didn't exist: Chromium and Nicrosil, and Cadmium and Bendalloy. Harmony may not have stopped Kell from spiking himself, but he WOULD have intervened if Kell started killing Ferrings.

Except that Kelsier actually went South only 10 years after the Catascande. While it is theoretically possible that the North had found the two missing metals and alloys AND ferrings of each metal had been born, I find this unlikely. Not to mention, said Ferrings would be nine or younger as they didn't exist prior to the Catascande and there were no Feruchemists after. So Kell and Spook would have had to kill children - and I really doubt either was capable of it.

 

Sooo... not spikes?

[StrikerEZ]

17 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Except that Kelsier actually went South only 10 years after the Catascande. While it is theoretically possible that the North had found the two missing metals and alloys AND ferrings of each metal had been born, I find this unlikely. Not to mention, said Ferrings would be nine or younger as they didn't exist prior to the Catascande and there were no Feruchemists after. So Kell and Spook would have had to kill children - and I really doubt either was capable of it.

Okay, your point works, I'd just like to clarify something.

There were always mistings of the rare metals (chromium, cadmium, bendalloy, etc.) before the Catacendre and when they were able to make those metals. They just weren't able to realize they had those abilities. As for Ferrings, they didn't exist until interbreeding between the Skaa/nobles and Terris started messing with the allomancy/feruchemy sDNA. There would've only been full feruchemists. Of course, that still would've required them to discover those metals, realize they were part of the metallic arts, and hunt down and kill several full feruchemists-all within around 10 years. So I doubt it's possible.

Could they have done it later? Yeah, probably. Would they have done it? Probably not.

[Kingsdaughter613]

16 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

 

There were always mistings of the rare metals (chromium, cadmium, bendalloy, etc.) before the Catacendre and when they were able to make those metals. They just weren't able to realize they had those abilities. As for Ferrings, they didn't exist until interbreeding between the Skaa/nobles and Terris started messing with the allomancy/feruchemy sDNA. There would've only been full feruchemists. Of course, that still would've required them to discover those metals, realize they were part of the metallic arts, and hunt down and kill several full feruchemists-all within around 10 years. So I doubt it's possible.

I know there were allomancers with the ability but it's irrelevant because Kelsier is a Mistborn; that's why I focused on Ferrings.

All the Feruchemists were killed prior to the Catascande. This discussed in the book. Afterwards there were no new ones born, only Ferrings. I could see Kell finding a reason to kill an adult, or convincing a dying adult to allow him to spike them, but not a child. And children born after the Catascande are the only ones who had Feruchemical abilities. So the timeline just doesn't add up.

[StrikerEZ]

31 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I know there were allomancers with the ability but it's irrelevant because Kelsier is a Mistborn; that's why I focused on Ferrings.

All the Feruchemists were killed prior to the Catascande. This discussed in the book. Afterwards there were no new ones born, only Ferrings. I could see Kell finding a reason to kill an adult, or convincing a dying adult to allow him to spike them, but not a child. And children born after the Catascande are the only ones who had Feruchemical abilities. So the timeline just doesn't add up.

Ah, okay. I didn't remember that part about the feruchemists all being dead. I wasn't disagreeing with your original point though, I still think it's unlikely that Kel spiked innocent people. Which leaves me to wonder how he became a Fullborn.