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Looking for Magic System Feedback - Dynatheurgy


Yuoaman

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I've gotten pretty deep into plotting out a new piece of fiction and I've been working on for a little while and I was hoping to get some feedback on the magic system I've been developing for it.

The system itself is called Dynatheurgy, with practitioners called Dynatheurgists. The central idea is that Dynatheurgists use their bodies and spirits to process natural energy and redirect it in different ways using Dynatheurgic Bonds. The simplest use case is simply taking the energy as it is and redirecting it somewhere else immediately, with no changes—for example, taking some of the heat from a nearby fire to set on fire a pile of dry leaves.

More advanced uses for Dynatheurgy involves imprinting a small portion of your will into the Bond, which dictates various limits and variables. A 'theurgist could, for example, direct light energy into a stone and will it to release its energy over a period of days, rather than all at once, devising a simple flashlight. By expending an even greater amount of will it is even possible to reshape the energy into a different type, turning light into heat, or even applying it to the 'theurgist's own body as energy reserves to increase their own stamina. There are legends of exceptionally talented Dynatheurgists being able to transform energy into matter, but the amount of energy and will necessary far outstrips reasonable applications. 

Common wisdom holds that every person is born with a certain amount of inborn will and as they deplete it they begin to fracture their very soul irreparably. Anecdotal evidence seems to support this, with elder Dynatheurgists tending to be more aloof and less empathetic than their younger cohorts. Given the impossibility to measure such things empirically, however, the truth of the matter is still heavily debated.

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Looks pretty cool. I like the concept of it weakening people's empathy. The rules regarding "willpower" seem a little vague, though, and Dynatheurgy is a bit of a mouthful, and makes me think it has something to do dinosaurs. Maybe that's that's just me. 

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1 hour ago, Lindel said:

Looks pretty cool. I like the concept of it weakening people's empathy. The rules regarding "willpower" seem a little vague, though, and Dynatheurgy is a bit of a mouthful, and makes me think it has something to do dinosaurs. Maybe that's that's just me. 

The rules regarding will and what exactly it represents are intended to be a little unclear in-universe, but I definitely agree that I need to come up with a better definition that "clicks" with the system a little better. I'm really into the name but I see where you're coming from with it being a little unwieldy, which is why I'm considering devising some more casual terms that might flow better, similar to the names the various flavors of Mistings and Ferrings have in the Mistborn books.

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Hi Yuoaman!

The system looks nice to me, but I have to admit I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to magic systems.

I was wondering if maybe your idea could benefit from giving the magic a bit of a higher cost. You say that a Dynatheurgist has to use his own energy and will to practice the magic; energy though can be regained over time, so it's a relatively small cost. As for will, I like the idea that you have just a certain amount of it when you're born and you use it over time - but it's a cost that is heavy for people around you, and not for yourself. If you lack empathy, you don't put yourself in others' shoes, and therefore you don't care anbout your own lack of empathy; you may destroy your romantic relationship, but you don't suffer from the fact that it is destroyed.
It seems a cost that you can be scared about in theory, but of which you don't really feel the impact. In a way, it's like smoking - most people have problems quitting, until it really makes them sick (and sometimes not even then). If I'd be a Dynatheurgist, I am not sure knowing I may lose my empathy over time would really keep me from exploiting my abilities whenever I feel like it.

I hope what I wrote is understandable! And most of all I hope it helps :)

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4 hours ago, Fedi said:

Hi Yuoaman!

The system looks nice to me, but I have to admit I'm a bit of a noob when it comes to magic systems.

I was wondering if maybe your idea could benefit from giving the magic a bit of a higher cost. You say that a Dynatheurgist has to use his own energy and will to practice the magic; energy though can be regained over time, so it's a relatively small cost. As for will, I like the idea that you have just a certain amount of it when you're born and you use it over time - but it's a cost that is heavy for people around you, and not for yourself. If you lack empathy, you don't put yourself in others' shoes, and therefore you don't care anbout your own lack of empathy; you may destroy your romantic relationship, but you don't suffer from the fact that it is destroyed.
It seems a cost that you can be scared about in theory, but of which you don't really feel the impact. In a way, it's like smoking - most people have problems quitting, until it really makes them sick (and sometimes not even then). If I'd be a Dynatheurgist, I am not sure knowing I may lose my empathy over time would really keep me from exploiting my abilities whenever I feel like it.

I hope what I wrote is understandable! And most of all I hope it helps :)

You bring up a really good point, and one I hadn't considered! I might try and lift the color wight concept from Brent Weeks' Lightbringer series and reshape it a bit to give Dynatheurgy some physiological costs as well. 

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@Yuoaman phew, it was my first time answering on a forum and I have to say I was a bit anxious over it. I'm happy you find my thoughts interesting.

I myself am a big fan of physiological costs - the bloodier, messier and thougher, the better. At the same time, though, a not physical thing can be equally interesting, if well managed by the writer.
So, I was thinking, what if using up one's will would lead to apathy and depression? It can get really nasty, with older Dynatheurgists becoming unable to get out of bed, or to take care of themselves properly, and maybe even suicidal.
Of course it's a difficult road to take: easy to fall into a lot of telling without showing, easy to fall into the bad teenage drama sort of thing - as a reader, though, I would be intrigued! It also gives you rather a lot of freedom with deciding how intense the effects are.

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10 minutes ago, Fedi said:

@Yuoaman phew, it was my first time answering on a forum and I have to say I was a bit anxious over it. I'm happy you find my thoughts interesting.

I myself am a big fan of physiological costs - the bloodier, messier and thougher, the better. At the same time, though, a not physical thing can be equally interesting, if well managed by the writer.
So, I was thinking, what if using up one's will would lead to apathy and depression? It can get really nasty, with older Dynatheurgists becoming unable to get out of bed, or to take care of themselves properly, and maybe even suicidal.
Of course it's a difficult road to take: easy to fall into a lot of telling without showing, easy to fall into the bad teenage drama sort of thing - as a reader, though, I would be intrigued! It also gives you rather a lot of freedom with deciding how intense the effects are.

That actually slots into some of the background mechanics of the system pretty well! Perhaps these effects manifest as a result of how well they are at creating Bonds. A more skilled Dynatheurgists will be able to create a Bond with the least amount of expended will and energy while an untrained novice is going to flail around quite a bit and drain themselves of will much more quickly in the long run. 

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9 hours ago, Yuoaman said:

That actually slots into some of the background mechanics of the system pretty well! Perhaps these effects manifest as a result of how well they are at creating Bonds. A more skilled Dynatheurgists will be able to create a Bond with the least amount of expended will and energy while an untrained novice is going to flail around quite a bit and drain themselves of will much more quickly in the long run. 

That absolutely makes sense! Maybe in the beginning the effects are not permanent, and that's why it's possible to learn the magic over a certain time span without suffering permanently from the initial inexperience.

Please let me know how you develop further your world and story, I'm very curious now! ;)

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On 6/28/2017 at 7:49 AM, Fedi said:

That absolutely makes sense! Maybe in the beginning the effects are not permanent, and that's why it's possible to learn the magic over a certain time span without suffering permanently from the initial inexperience.

Please let me know how you develop further your world and story, I'm very curious now! ;)

I appreciate the support! I hope some of the new developments I have interest you!

===

As I indicated earlier, it is generally believed that each person has a finite amount of will and that depleting it over a lifetime can lead to reduced empathy, but a Dynatheurgist doesn't necessarily have access to all of this at once. While beliefs differ wildly depending on who you are speaking with, there are several core tenets that most agree on. Each person is believed to have a "reservoir" of will that exists between their physical self and the inner self—that is, the soul. When too much of this reservoir is used by a Dynatheurgist in one Bond it leaves the soul unprotected from the rigors of the physical realm and leaves them in danger of being "cracked." 

Cracking isn't necessarily a death sentence for a theurgist, the most common effect of a minor cracking is mood swings and apathy that usually clears up after several weeks abstaining from Dynatheurgy entirely. The damage, however, is irreversible, and a theurgist who has been cracked once will more easily crack in the future, leading to a whole host of problems, including hallucinations, insomnia, and major depressive episodes that all too often results in suicide. There are asylums throughout the world devoted to caring for Dynatheurgists who have become so cracked that they have become a danger to others and themselves. The telltale aloofness of Dynatheurgists isn't necessarily a sign of cracking, it seems to come on over the years regardless of a theurgist's care in using their will. Whether this reduced level of empathy and aloofness has any effect on the cracking process at all is unknown.

A theurgist's reach into this reservoir, and therefore their risk of cracking, is determined by age and experience. The more often a theurgist creates Bonds that require an investment of will the more they will be able to draw on in the future, and the more easily they will be able to do so—even unintentionally. This does mean, however, that the most talented Dynatheurgists are those most at risk of overextending themselves and cracking, even when performing simple tasks. This has led to several leading organizations in the field to order their best and brightest to abstain from expending will in any Bonds whatsoever, in order to further research and development.

Edited by Yuoaman
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  • 5 weeks later...

The emotional cost is very cool. That could lead your story in lots of interesting directions.

My concern is the breadth of the abilities. Redirecting energy has become a popular idea in magic systems these days (Pat Rothfuss is probably the best execution), but it comes with a major problem. With enough will and creativity, this magic can be used to do basically anything. So your characters are always either monstrously overpowered, or frustratingly ignorant of their own abilities.

Always remember Brandon's Second Law: A magic system is more interesting for its limitations than for its abilities. If you reduce dynatheurgy to a handful of very specific abilities (types of bonds, or whatever) with clearly-defined limitations, it actually becomes more engaging. It helps us understand exactly what the characters are capable of, and it forces the characters to get creative, and use the power in unexpected ways. (Which is actually Brandon's first and third laws, respectively.)

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 7/31/2017 at 1:35 PM, Belzedar said:

The emotional cost is very cool. That could lead your story in lots of interesting directions.

My concern is the breadth of the abilities. Redirecting energy has become a popular idea in magic systems these days (Pat Rothfuss is probably the best execution), but it comes with a major problem. With enough will and creativity, this magic can be used to do basically anything. So your characters are always either monstrously overpowered, or frustratingly ignorant of their own abilities.

Always remember Brandon's Second Law: A magic system is more interesting for its limitations than for its abilities. If you reduce dynatheurgy to a handful of very specific abilities (types of bonds, or whatever) with clearly-defined limitations, it actually becomes more engaging. It helps us understand exactly what the characters are capable of, and it forces the characters to get creative, and use the power in unexpected ways. (Which is actually Brandon's first and third laws, respectively.)

I haven't been on the forums for a while, sorry for missing your comment until now!

You hit the nail on the head in regards to what my worries are in regards to this system. Will and it being finite is my big check against all theurgists being godlike but I definitely need to come up with additional constraints to keep things interesting. I've already cut down on the number of bonds to two (Transformation, changing the form of energy; and Redirection, which is just what it sounds like) but an additional idea I'm playing with is that the person using a Bond has to actually understand what they're doing, they have to know how much energy they need to draw and exactly what sort of reactions it needs to perform in a measurable way. My worry with this is that it might bog down some of the more high-level uses of Dynatheurgy and make it read like a university physics textbook or something.

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16 hours ago, Yuoaman said:

I haven't been on the forums for a while, sorry for missing your comment until now!

You hit the nail on the head in regards to what my worries are in regards to this system. Will and it being finite is my big check against all theurgists being godlike but I definitely need to come up with additional constraints to keep things interesting. I've already cut down on the number of bonds to two (Transformation, changing the form of energy; and Redirection, which is just what it sounds like) but an additional idea I'm playing with is that the person using a Bond has to actually understand what they're doing, they have to know how much energy they need to draw and exactly what sort of reactions it needs to perform in a measurable way. My worry with this is that it might bog down some of the more high-level uses of Dynatheurgy and make it read like a university physics textbook or something.

Have you thought about the energy in terms of vibration? Like when you find the biting point when you learn to drive. The vibration and sound become different and becomes almost instinctual once you've learned to find it. For the uninitiated the description could be sensual with how it moves through the body, but two practitioners talking together would be describing the vibrations in term of wavelength/second. So you'd have a soft side and a hard side to the system. 

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On 8/31/2017 at 4:32 PM, Lemonelon said:

Have you thought about the energy in terms of vibration? Like when you find the biting point when you learn to drive. The vibration and sound become different and becomes almost instinctual once you've learned to find it. For the uninitiated the description could be sensual with how it moves through the body, but two practitioners talking together would be describing the vibrations in term of wavelength/second. So you'd have a soft side and a hard side to the system. 

That's actually a super interesting idea! Baked into the system is the idea that there is a certain level of proficiency that is instinctual, but this adds a bit of "crunchiness" to it that makes it feel more believable to me.

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