The morality of Adolin's actions

[WhiteLeeopard]

I have only been around the forum for a little over half a year, so sorry if this has been done before. This question was sparked because Adolin’s actions seem to be one of the most popular discussions in the 17^th Shard. Nearly everyone has an idea of whether what he did was good, evil, or something in between. I started this poll as I got curious from what @kari-no-sugata said in another thread about the different philosophies of Roshar and how they apply to this situation, as well as seeing some specific numbers. So my question was, which philosophies do the Sharders ascribe to in this situation?

 

Edited June 26, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Calderis]

First I'm going to say that Morality, and good and evil in general, are (necessary) social constructs that exist purely to avoid anarchy. 

"Morality is the herd-instinct in the individual" - Fredrich Nietzsche 

That said what he did was necessary but will have consequences if discovered. If only because it was discovered. 

The means by which someone is killed really doesn't seem to matter to the Alethi nobility as long as there is adequate deniability. If his guilt can be proven though, they'll treat it as a crime regardless of the murderers they laud praise upon. 

[Toaster Retribution]

Yeah, Adolin murdering Sadeas is one of the most heavily discussed things in Stormlight (it ranks second behind a certain Stick). Anyway, my take on it is the following:

Random murders are always wrong, and as such, Adolin killing Sadeas was wrong. That said, I completely get why he did it, and I dont think he deserves to be harshly punished. Sadeas had betrayed him and his house, left him for dead, and taunted him repeatedly. In addition to this, Adolin doesn´t like to just stand around and do nothing. Taunts, and other bad acts towards him or his family gets him angered pretty fast. And he is also very loyal, and wants to protect his loved ones (the same people that Sadeas was attempting to harm). Given all this, him snapping and killing Sadeas is understandable, and I also think that Sadeas should, at least in part, blame himself. He was basically playing with fire, and in the end, he got burned. 

[Luck Spren]

I'll be 100% honest here.

Even though Brandon justifies why Sadeas was allowed to continue as a High-Prince after what he did in the end of The Way of Kings, I never got my head around this. Something should have happened, either at the end of The Way of Kings or at the beginning of Words of Radiance. This is probably my biggest "complaint" with The Stormlight Archive series. I just felt that Sadeas being murdered in cold blood at the end of WoR was out of place.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

[king of nowhere]

 

yes, a thread like this pop up every now and then, but you are the first one to think to start a poll, so kudos to you.

Still, I would like to vote all three options togheter: it was good, I was cheering him the whole time, but he will likely pay a price for it, and while it was good that someone like sadeas got his comeuppance, adolin doing it was more necessary than strictly good or evil.

2 hours ago, Luck Spren said:

I'll be 100% honest here.

Even though Brandon justifies why Sadeas was allowed to continue as a High-Prince after what he did in the end of The Way of Kings, I never got my head around this. Something should have happened, either at the end of The Way of Kings or at the beginning of Words of Radiance. This is probably my biggest "complaint" with The Stormlight Archive series. I just felt that Sadeas being murdered in cold blood at the end of WoR was out of place.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

politics is often like that, and in the past it was like that even more. sadeas betrayal worked (mostly) an so the others fell in line with him for fear of being the next one. if one achieves power through immoral means, many would rather curry favor with him rather than risk to try and punish him. for every one who would denounce a corrupt politician, there is another who will rather buy him, and another who will just try to stay out of trouble.

but hey, sadeas' actions weren't entirely without consequences. one pretty big consequence happened to him at the end of words of radiance.

[geralt]

Although I hated Sadeas with a passion, I don't think murdering him was right simply because I believe killing is never right (unless it's in self-defense). On the other hand, though, who knows how many lives Adolin's actions saved? So, while it may have been wrong to do so it was definitely not evil, so I doubt it will lead him to join Odium's side. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by geralt

[kari-no-sugata]

I hope that some different moral viewpoints are properly discussed in Oathbringer. It certainly deserves such.

For example: the right to self-defence: Sadeas didn't directly or immediately threaten Adolin but he did credibly threaten Adolin's family.

For example: who is accountable when justice repeatedly fails to take action? Sadeas was an evil mass murder. Allowing him to run free is wrong. Failing to even try to hold him accountable for his crimes is immoral. What this effectively means is that Adolin had no legal way of preventing his family from being attacked.

That being said, this doesn't mean Adolin didn't commit an illegal act (this is something that would vary between countries on Earth as well and depending upon the legal system he might well be acquitted). This also doesn't mean that Adolin would have the right to avoid justice. Morally, he would be obliged to report his actions.

[ZenBossanova]

1 minute ago, kari-no-sugata said:

That being said, this doesn't mean Adolin didn't commit an illegal act (this is something that would vary between countries on Earth as well and depending upon the legal system he might well be acquitted).

While the Althei are perfectly happy to kill on the battlefield, I expect they will make up for that by being extra prim and proper off the battlefield. Adolin will face the law. 

There is a WoB that while some orders of Radiants would be opposed to this, others would be just fine with it. This is part of why I wonder if Adolin's long term arc will be finally ending up with the Dustbringers. 

[Aminar]

Killing Sadeas was wrong. It had to happen, and its justified. But justice and morality are very different things. I don't actually like Justice much. It's... Too close to vengeance and the two often get conflated by people looking to justify their own actions. 

That answer isn't on the poll. Not really. 

All of that said, I hope Brandon leaves this as a finished plotthread. I know that's less dramatic, but the direction it goes isn't something I find interesting. 

[maxal]

I voted for the second option as while I do think Adolin's actions aren't totally right, I can't say they were wrong either. Obviously, had Adolin evolved within present day Earth, my reasoning would be different as murder can never be allowed to become a solution, for any problem. However, I would argue right here the "problems" Adolin faced bear no resemblance whatsoever to "problems" any modern day young man would ever face. Sadeas is guilty of having betrayed an ally at a time of war thus causing the death of 6000 men and of attempting to remove a political enemy by using an assassin. He then has the foolishness to brag about it and to openly state he will kill his political enemy, the king and be glad about it. Were it modern day, Sadeas would have never escape justice: he would have been trialed and found guilty. Adolin would have never been placed into a situation where he has to choose in between acting or allowing the insanity to keep on happening over and over again.

Basically, Adolin has been left with no legal resources to deal with Sadeas. The last one he had, dueling the man, was lost to him. What was he supposed to do?

I thus find it too easy to evaluate Adolin's action using our own modern day frame as nothing within our modern days inside modern countries would ever allow for him to be faced with such an ordeal. I find it easy to say, he ought not to have kill Sadeas. Sure, murder is bad, it is evil, sure murdering a Highprince is even worst, but what Sadeas did is just beyond this scope. He is a threat and he is a threat the Kholins had no means to deal with in a legal manner: even Dalinar ought to know that. 

This does not means Adolin should not face the law, but it should mean his sentence ought to be "lesser" because of the circumstances. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

For example: the right to self-defence: Sadeas didn't directly or immediately threaten Adolin but he did credibly threaten Adolin's family.

The thing is, that even there are very specific nuances. The German law for instance states, that you always are allowed to act in self-defence (Notwehr), if there is an immediate, illicit attack towards you or someone else. Of course, that is just the basic paragraph and there are many rules to that, but I don't think killing to protect your family from threats is an act of self-defence. If Sadeas had attacked Adolin on the spot, this would have had painted a completely different picture. I don't think, that it could have been morally justified as an act of self-defence, but I am a German in the end and believe in our law - even it's moral implications. I don't know how the Alethi people would see it.

11 hours ago, Aminar said:

Killing Sadeas was wrong. It had to happen, and its justified. But justice and morality are very different things. I don't actually like Justice much. It's... Too close to vengeance and the two often get conflated by people looking to justify their own actions. 

I very much agree with that.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

This does not means Adolin should not face the law, but it should mean his sentence ought to be "lesser" because of the circumstances. 

And why would any court believe Adolin or the Kholins? All they'll see is that Adolin has murdered Sadeas. Threats do not allow for murder, betrayal on the battlefield? Why should the court care about that? All they'll see is a feud between two families and a son that has snapped. Adolin has stormed up and has to deal with the consequences - or he runs away from them, but I don't think that he will.

If anything it should be punished harder, because it means, that by killing Sadeas Adolin actually subverted the Alethi war effort. And they honestly are at war now. A war of survival.

Edited June 26, 2017 by SLNC

[Calderis]

@SLNC what court are we talking about here? From everything we've seen the law in Alethkar is the highprinces. Elhokar is supposed to be above them, but do you think that anyone would have moved against Sadeas if Elhokar commanded? I think the country would have split the moment the words were said. @maxal's whole point was that what Adolin did was wrong, but that there wasn't a legal option. 

Sadeas caused the deaths of thousands at the Tower. Everyone knew this but he did it the Alethi way, so no one cared. He sent an assassin that at least the Kholins would have know was from Sadeas, but obviously couldn't prove. 

Adolin's options were listen to very real threats from a Highprince who had tried very hard to kill him and his family before and act in the only defense available to him in Alethkar, or allow the threats to become reality. There is no court to convict Sadeas.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

There is no court to convict Sadeas.

Right. Then there should be no court to convict Adolin as well and everything is fine.

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Right. Then there should be no court to convict Adolin as well and everything is fine.

No court except for 8 Highprinces who see their right to judge and rule as they see fit undermined by a man with a knife. 

They'll want to make an example of him. 

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

No court except for 8 Highprinces who see their right to judge and rule as they see fit undermined by a man with a knife. 

They'll want to make an example of him. 

About those 8 highprinces, wonder if Aladar and Sebarial will be that eager to judge Adolin. Aladar is fully aware of, and disliked Sadeas douchiness, and Sebarial is... well, Sebarial. 

Oh, and also, Roion is dead, so that makes it at least seven.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[Luck Spren]

4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

About those 8 highprinces, wonder if Aladar and Sebarial will be that eager to convict Adolin. Aladar is fully aware of, and disliked Sadeas douchiness, and Sebarial is... well, Sebarial. 

I just think we're not considering a few things here. Andolin might succeed his father now that Dalinar is the Head of the newly formed Knights Radiant.

 

[Toaster Retribution]

3 minutes ago, Luck Spren said:

I just think we're not considering a few things here. Andolin might succeed his father now that Dalinar is the Head of the newly formed Knights Radiant.

 

I just have a feeling this wont happen. There will still be people going after Adolin, even if Aladar and Sebarial doesnt. Actually, there is a possibility that Adolin might be seen as unworthy of successing because of the murder. Dalinar will probably be disappointed by it. 

So I think that either, Dalinar will keep on being the Kholin Highprince, or Elhokar will take control over the family. I could even see Navani doing it, tbh.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

About those 8 highprinces, wonder if Aladar and Sebarial will be that eager to judge Adolin. Aladar is fully aware of, and disliked Sadeas douchiness, and Sebarial is... well, Sebarial. 

Oh, and also, Roion is dead, so that makes it at least seven.

I suppose the number doesn't really matter. Sadeas and Roion will be replaced and it will be 9 at some point. 

My point was that the legal process in Alethkar end at the level of the Highprinces, and an act against a Highprince specifically is going to be viewed with excessive Harshness simply because of the threat that those of that station feel they should be immune to. 

4 minutes ago, Luck Spren said:

I just think we're not considering a few things here. Andolin might succeed his father now that Dalinar is the Head of the newly formed Knights Radiant.

It's possible, and eventually I think it will be necessary. At first though I don't think Dalinar will be able to separate his view of himself as the Kholin Highprince from his new role. He's horrible when it comes to relinquishing control. He's going to want to try to do everything, and I think it's going to cause him some problems. 

[Landis963]

Where's the option for "It was wrong, but I was cheering him on the entire time"?  

[Islington]

I would say that we don't abstain from murder because others are good, but because we are good. The discussion of morality doesn't take into account mitigating circumstances aside from the threat of death. Adolin wasn't being attacked, he killed Sadeas because he wanted to. 

 

That being said, I would've stabbed Sadeas a long time before Adolin did. The way things should be and the way things are disagree, and though we should always strive for the first, we all err. In Alethi legality, I think Adolin has some serious plausible deniability. 

[king of nowhere]

All those discussions about law and rights only apply if there is a law that can be applied. this is clearly not the case here. the system is crooked, the only people who could judge sadeas are his closest allies and lackeys, and the men is abusing plausible deniability past any stretching point.b without hope for a lawful solution, I invoke the right of revolution for adolin.

Quote

right of revolution is the right or duty of the people of a nation to overthrow a government that acts against their common interests and/or threatens the safety of the people without probable cause.

well, let's see:

acts against their common interest? totally. he uses them as arrow bait because it's less expensive than the alternatives.

threatens the safety of the people without probable cause? absolutely. he directly caused the death of 6000 of dalinar's soldiers, plus he's sabotaging the whole war effort for no better reason that his personal ambition, during a desolation no less.

there is no lawful way to overthrow sades lawfully? certainly. not realistically at least. there is a theoretical chance that he may be rebuked by the other highprinces, but it's more like a theorietical possibility used to appease those who care about lawfulness than a real thing.

Therefore it was morally justified to rebel against sadeas, which is exactly what adolin did.

 

EDIT: or at least there is a strong argument of political philosophy in its favor

Edited June 26, 2017 by king of nowhere

[Ammanas]

As Shallan teaches us after her "philosophy lesson". One can be right, but not moral. I think that applies here.

[Emerald101]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

I invoke the right of revolution for adolin [sic.].

I don't think this applies here. The right of revolution belongs to the people as a whole, and thus it can't be exercised by a single person acting alone. One person acting against a single other person - not trying to overthrow the system as a whole, not acting as the representative of the people in any way recognized by the people - is a vigilante, not a rebel acting against an oppressive government.

As far as Shallan's ethics go, Adolin's actions could be considered moral but not right. "Rightness" in her terms refers to the particular actions and most immediate circumstances. Jasnah's killing in self defense was right. Morality considers intent and the greater context of the situation. Jasnah seeking out men to kill was immoral according to Shallan. And the morality of Adolin's actions is still questionable under these definitions.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Emerald101
Better clarity

[Ammanas]

@Emerald101 You are right I mixed them up; thanks for the correction!

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Emerald101 said:

I don't think this applies here. The right of revolution belongs to the people as a whole, and thus it can't be exercised by a single person acting alone. One person acting against a single other person - not trying to overthrow the system as a whole, not acting as the representative of the people in any way recognized by the people - is a vigilante, not a rebel acting against an oppressive government.

if we want to go down that particular rabbit hole, adolin, for his position as prince, could be considered a representative of the people in a way recognized by the people.

we may also question what "the people as a whole" is - it certainly is not each and every person, and as for the 50%+1 of the people, they would probably vote against sadeas if they could. or maybe not, because alethkar doesn't have a concept of democracy. democracy itself is moot without free media, so even if the people living under sadeas got to vote, the vote itself would be of little value. it could represent an enlightened minority of people, and that's probably the closest we got to the ideals of the french and american revolutions - most people would have likely supported the king because they believed in divine right, probably. the arab spring revolutions are a fine example of how often there really isn't something you can call "the will of the people": people in the cities staged mass protests, so it could be said that they represented the people as a whole, but when they made elections it turned out that they were the minority, because the people in the countryside had different ideas. So maybe the will of the people simply means whoever shout loudest and manage to convince any bystander that he represent the majority? those are overly nitpicky points, though, and not very strong arguments. So i will provide more substantial arguments.

The first is that every revolution is born from individual action. the first person to throw a stone in a crowd is not really different from adolin. if more people pick up stones, then it becomes a revolution, and it can be said that "the people as a whole" is doing it, but there must be one person to start the rebellion. So adolin's gesture can be considered an act of rebellion against an injust government, the first act to ignite a revolution, except that adolin's action also ended said revolution decisively. But rebellion against an injust government it was: I'm sure adolin wouldn't have come to that if there had been lawful ways to fight sadeas. And I'm sure many more people would have followed him and staged a full revolution against sadeas (the bridgemen come to mind, and from what we saw of gaz and the deserters, probably a sizeable chunk of sadeas' army would have deserted too in case of rebellion), if adolin hadn't also terminated the revolution single-handedly. adolin thus represented all those people oppressed by sadeas who never had the chance to rise.

There is also another way to interpret the situation, which is that adolin is the representative of a government (he is second in succession line, after all) and is acting on behalf of his nation, the kholin princedom, against a foreign nation, the sadeas princedom, because said nation was committing acts of terrorism against his nation. those two nations are bound in a loose allegiance, alethkar, and so the kholin government first tried to call to alethkar for a diplomatic settlement, but to no avail. their proof was judged insufficient. so adolin committed an act of war against sadeas. I don't need to cite precedents in contemporary history for this kind of situations. Note that in said contemporary precedents many people argued against war, and the main arguments were two: 1) the proof was insufficient to be sure, and 2) innocent people would suffer. And in the kholin vs sadeas case, both those arguments do not apply.

Ok, I know fully well that  adolin wasn't thinking along those lines when he acted, he wasn't acting as representative of the people or of the government. but hey, apparently the fact that sadeas intended to foster a civil war during what can be called an alien invasion also don't count, so if intentions do not count, let them not count on our favor.