How Odium shatters other shards

[Kedwin]

I've been wondering about how Odium has been killing and splintering other shards and I've been thinking that perhaps it's something that he achieves through manipulation and cunning instead of any kind of weapon or brute force. I think it's implied that Ruin would've splintered Preservation's power after he had killed Leras, had Kelsier not taken it himself. So it would seem it's not any kind of weapon or specialized power that Odium developed for himself. I'm thinking that maybe he manipulates events and creates situations where a Shard will be driven by it's intent to invest away enough power that Odium can then kill it's vessel without being destroyed himself. Sort of how Preservation was driven by his need to preserve into severely weakening himself in order to contain Ruin. He was then a mere shadow of himself and Ruin was able to kill him finally once he broke free. Rayse is described as being an incredibly cunning man even before his ascension. Now with a Shard's powers and foresight, it seems plausible that he would be able maneuver other Shards into a corner using his knowledge of how their intents will drive them to behave.

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, Kedwin said:

I think it's implied that Ruin would've splintered Preservation's power after he had killed Leras, had Kelsier not taken it himself.

That had nothing to do with Ruin after Leras died. Shards without a vessel will try to gain sentience themselves, which could mean that it breaks into smaller pieces while doing so.

Anyway, my point was that Ruin didn't have to do anything else, where I've always felt it was implied that Odium was actually doing something to splinter them. Case in point how Khriss described the previous Splinterings as singular quick events, whereas Leras was essentially being suffocated.

I agree that Odium has the foresight to maneuver events to go his way, but he has to move fast in order to not start automatically investing on the worlds he is on, which limits how much he can really influence events. Additionally, Honor appears to have outmaneuvered him on Roshar, which makes me wonder how accurate the "intents will drive them to act this way" method of planning is. Odium interpreting that Honor would stand and fight seems reasonable, but the sneaky trap Honor laid could have avoided Odium's expectations.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I agree that Odium has the foresight to maneuver events to go his way, but he has to move fast in order to not start automatically investing on the worlds he is on, which limits how much he can really influence events. Additionally, Honor appears to have outmaneuvered him on Roshar, which makes me wonder how accurate the "intents will drive them to act this way" method of planning is. Odium interpreting that Honor would stand and fight seems reasonable, but the sneaky trap Honor laid could have avoided Odium's expectations.

And Honor being willing to sacrifice himself in order to trap Odium and safeguard the rest of the Cosmere is something so in line with Honor's intent that Odium should have definitely seen something coming. 

[ZenBossanova]

My personal theory, is that Odium shatters shards by turning the shard against itself. 

For instance, I theorize he fought against Honor, until Honor was finally considering un-Honorable ways to win. But once he thinks that, then the shard can't fight against itself, without breaking into separate pieces. So, it shatters. 

Perhaps he pressed on Ambition, until he was just trying to survive (but therefore wasn't being ambitious). 

But while that is just a theory, it is worth remembering, that Odium is basically God's hatred, and probably much of his destructive power. It makes sense that he is the best at destroying, above and beyond the cunning of Rayse. 

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Perhaps he pressed on Ambition, until he was just trying to survive (but therefore wasn't being ambitious). 

Problem with this is that Ambition fled before being killed, whereas you make it sound like the act of fleeing(cowardice, not ambitious) should have killed him then and there.

---

It always felt like Brandon was saying that they physically can't act against their intent after a while, not that it would have an adverse effect on them if they did.

That and I don't like the "turned them against themself" because it feels overdone in fantasy(which isn't a valid reason, I know).

[+Extesian]

So a few WoBs below.

I don't think it can be forcing the Shard to go against their own intent, as it's like a small scale version of the Shattering, and how could you make a god with blended intents go against his intent? It's a nice idea but I don't think it matches what we know. I like the idea that it's somehow severing the Spiritual Connections that hold together the various dispersed parts of the Shard's power. I also think it can't truly cost Odium investiture or he'd be getting too weak from splintering everyone he can find. But I think it's certainly an action and one that is quite complex for other Shards, who were probably involved in the initial Shattering, to not understand it properly.

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Interview: Feb 12th, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - Mason Wheeler (Paraphrased)

Mason Wheeler

You've said that Splintering a shard is essentially the same thing as the shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

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Question

The next question I have is does Odium have to recover after Shattering a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

It is a difficult process that is very taxing.

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Question: Is Odium's method of smothering shards inspired at all by the way Adonalsium was originally shattered?

Answer: It is not obvious to other Shards. But there are relationships.

 

[Necessary Eagle]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

That had nothing to do with Ruin after Leras died. Shards without a vessel will try to gain sentience themselves, which could mean that it breaks into smaller pieces while doing so.

Anyway, my point was that Ruin didn't have to do anything else, where I've always felt it was implied that Odium was actually doing something to splinter them.

Doesn't Fuzz's death scene in M:SH have a line where he tells Kelsier to hurry with the ascending because Ruin is trying to splinter his power?

[The One Who Connects]

4 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Doesn't Fuzz's death scene in M:SH have a line where he tells Kelsier to hurry with the ascending because Ruin is trying to splinter his power?

Khriss speculated that Ruin doesn't know how Odium does it because he was doing the smothering method, so I trusted Khriss that Odium was actually doing something where Ruin was not. I guess he could technically have something in mind once Leras dies, but we don't really know what.

[Thanatos]

This is the part:

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Odd, the voice said. After all these years appearing for others as they died, I never expected . . . that my own passing would be so cold and lonely. . . .    

“I’m here for you,” Kelsier said.    

No. You weren’t. Kelsier, he’s splitting my power. He’s breaking it apart. It will be gone . . . Splintered. . . . He’ll destroy it.

 

[The One Who Connects]

So I found an interesting tidbit today that relates to this.

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Lance Alvein

You've said that "The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away." How does one Shard steal a portion of another Shard and create a Physical outlet for it, like the Pits were for Ruin's power?

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

It has to do with clash between the two shards power. When pressed, he then said that it was "kind of" like splintering

Preservation is the last one I would have expected to be on the list of Shard Splinterers, but...

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

So I found an interesting tidbit today that relates to this.

Preservation is the last one I would have expected to be on the list of Shard Splinterers, but...

Was going to upvote you and hit the limit, but I think you get the award for most of my upvotes today. 

[Thanatos]

Interesting. I thought TLR created the pits. 

So Preservation, Ruin and Odium knows how to splinter shards. 

Possibly Cultivation now, as i think Honors sacrifice showed Cultivation how this happens.

Pretty sure Autonomy knows too.

Wonder what other shards know how to splinter shards.

I do remember a WoB saying Odium is still recovering from Honors splintering. 

If splintering a shard has to do with the clash between shardic investure is the same as Uncle Andy shattering, then what hell is the weapon made from!!?

Paasing thought:

Fainlife? 

If so would investiture and fainlife cancel each other out like matter and animatter. Resulting in the creation of skullsworn?

Edited June 30, 2017 by Thanatos

[The One Who Connects]

8 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Interesting. I thought TLR created the pits.

Afraid not. However, his terraforming of the world during his ascension could have collapsed whatever tunnels the Atium was previously growing in, forcing them to grow in a different open crevice. Also, the pits may/may not have moved with the crust when TLR shifted all of it. That's 2 possibilities that could lead to TLR indirectly "creating" the new Pits as we knew them.

8 hours ago, Thanatos said:

I do remember a WoB saying Odium is still recovering from Honors splintering. 

I'd be interested in seeing this, as I haven't seen this one. I've seen the one that says splintering a shard is something he has to rest/recover from, but nothing more specific.

8 hours ago, Thanatos said:

Wonder what other shards know how to splinter shards.

I don't know if any of them "know," but I can make a convincing case for 9 of the 10 being able to do it within their Intents, which is why Preservation doing it was so unexpected.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I don't know if any of them "know," but I can make a convincing case for 9 of the 10 being able to do it within their Intents, which is why Preservation doing it was so unexpected.

I know! I mean, I can see every other Shards doing it, depending on the circumstances. Preservation? The shard that wants literal stasis? How does that intent lend itself to shattering?

In contrast to Ati being worn away, Leras must have been incredibly strong willed to still have as much personality as he did at the end. Maybe this is less a product of the Shard, and more an effect of the Vessel.

Edit: but then... Why would the intent of Preservation try to enact change on its vessel... So many possible variables... Bah

Edited June 30, 2017 by Calderis

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I know! I mean, I can see every other Shards doing it, depending on the circumstances. Preservation? The shard that wants literal stasis? How does that intent lend itself to shattering?

In contrast to Ati being worn away, Leras must have been incredibly strong willed to still have as much personality as he did at the end. Maybe this is less a product of the Shard, and more an effect of the Vessel.

Edit: but then... Why would the intent of Preservation try to enact change on its vessel... So many possible variables... Bah

We know that the Intent eventually overrules the personality of the Vessel, yes? We've made the assumption that Autonomy has more leeway because that's what the Intent of Autonomy kinda is. It doesn't control Bavadin's personality as much because it is trying to make it an autonomous personality, the same way Odium makes Rayse's personality hateful. Why can't Preservation try and preserve the personality of the Vessel? Under this logic, Leras' personality wasn't changed because it wasn't allowed to change.

Autonomy - force vessel's personality to be autonomous (may be the cause of multiple personality stuff)
Preservation - forcibly preserves vessel's personality (may be why Leras could do what he did to Ruin)
Domin... I should make a separate thread for this shouldn't I?

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

We know that the Intent eventually overrules the personality of the Vessel, yes? We've made the assumption that Autonomy has more leeway because that's what the Intent of Autonomy kinda is. It doesn't control Bavadin's personality as much because it is trying to make it an autonomous personality, the same way Odium makes Rayse's personality hateful. Why can't Preservation try and preserve the personality of the Vessel? Under this logic, Leras' personality wasn't changed because it wasn't allowed to change.

Autonomy - force vessel's personality to be autonomous (may be the cause of multiple personality stuff)
Preservation - forcibly preserves vessel's personality (may be why Leras could do what he did to Ruin)
Domin... I should make a separate thread for this shouldn't I?

I will totally be involved in that thread. 

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I will totally be involved in that thread. 

It's incomplete because I'm having issues with some of the more abstract shards we have less details about, but here you go:

[Yitzi2]

On 6/30/2017 at 10:39 AM, Calderis said:

I know! I mean, I can see every other Shards doing it, depending on the circumstances. Preservation? The shard that wants literal stasis? How does that intent lend itself to shattering?

It doesn't.  It lends itself to a process that bears some similarity to shattering.  Of course, the fact that hiding the power is similar to shattering is itself very interesting...

[The One Who Connects]

16 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

Of course, the fact that hiding the power is similar to shattering is itself very interesting...

It's my bad for highlighting the wrong sentence, but the WoB actually says that stealing that bit of Ruin's power from him was "kind-of" like Splintering. The hiding was likely how Preservation used that stolen power, maybe in the same vein as why Odium won't pick up other Shards. Preservation wouldn't want to be tinged by Ruin, now would he?

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Side note: It's "splinter" not "shatter". I'm also guilty of using Shatter, but we really should be making an effort to use the correct term.

OK. So I actually have a theory on this. I think that the process of splintering has two parts: Separate as much of the Shard's investiture from itself as you can, and then splintering what is left of the shard into as many pieces as you can. I suspect that the Shard's vessel would need to die before you can do the second part (Or maybe the splintering process itself kills the vessel), but it would be possible to separate the Investiture from the shard while the Vessel is still alive.

How it would apply to Dominion and Devotion's splintering: I think Odium started by killing the two vessels, then he separated the bulk of the investiture from the shards, which he then combined and placed in the CR (forming the Dor), and then took what was left (Essentially the Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual aspect of the shard, but with no mind) and splintered them, spreading the pieces everywhere on Sel. The splintered pieces would have eventually developed sentience associated with their intent, and thus were the Seons and Skaze born.

As for Honor, I'm not sure. I think that the Rosharan equivalent of the Dor is the Storm itself, seeing as how the storm is the main source of Investiture on Roshar. So, I think that Odium killed Honor, and was rushed in the process of splintering (probably for the same reason he couldn't leave the system) so instead of creating another Dor, he threw the investiture back on the planet. Doing so left a lot of "rogue" investiture on the planet, which is what formed the storms. At this point the storm just keeps going around and around the planet.
As for Honor's equivalent of Seons/Skaze, I don't know. Odium might have been weakened enough by the fight that he could not finish the process, and thus the shard itself survived whole (or maybe in 2-3 pieces), but without a vessel/mind (or maybe a dying one), and separated from the bulk of it's investiture. I have a couple ideas of what this might be. One would be the Stormfather. It could be that the Shard is still in the process of recreating a mind for itself, which is why the Stormfather isn't drawing in all of the investiture to return to being a Shard. It could be that he is only a portion of Honor, thus not capable of drawing in the full investiture under his control. So, maybe he has it all under partial control, which is why you have storms that follow a pattern?

Another theory for Honor might be that Odium splintered him into 2-3 pieces, but wasn't able to separate him from his investiture. Thus you have one Splinter as the Stormfather, with his Investiture manifesting as a storm. Honor himself survived in a much weakened state, with continued access to part of his investiture. This would mean that when he died in WoR, his power would have splintered again? Or it would have been taken up by someone else, a la leras? I'm picturing something very similar to Preservation's death scene, except that instead of trying to tell Elend something, Honor just shouts out "Unite them!!!!".

And then you get Preservation. He was able to separate Ruin from his investiture and keep him locked up, but it cost him heavily, in part seperating himself from his own investiture. When Ruin escaped, he regained part of his Investiture, but some of it was still hidden (the atium). This explains why Preservation's intent allowed him to do that: What he did wasn't a destruction of Ruin (the splintering of the shard) it was him nerfing Ruin as much as he could, a process that is very close to the actual splintering of a shard, seeing as how one typically does with the other. Then Ruin used the fact that preservation had weakened himself to kill him, which would have allowed him to splinter Preservation if Kelsier hadn't stepped in. However, Kelsier was holding the shard, without most of the Investiture, seeing as it was still in the Mist. When Vin drew in the mist and Kelsier gave her the shard, Preservation was almost completely united again. The only missing piece being the godmetal part of him (the lerasium) which was locked in the people's ability to use Alomancy. The only reason Ruin wasn't more powerful than Vin was because Ruin's godmetal investiture (the atium) ad also been locked away, then burned. Thus you see that both Preservation and Ruin had their investiture separated at some point, but neither got splintered, despite being vulnerable, because Preservation wasn't able to splinter Ruin, and Ruin was blocked by Kelsier then Vin.

 

Dominion/Devotion part is the most solid portion, and the rest is mostly head cannon, but it makes sense to me. Especially since it explains why Seons/Skaze can be a portion of their respective shards, while the Dor still exists.

[StrikerEZ]

@Lord Maelstrom I like your theory, but the Highstorms existed on Roshar prior to Honor/Cultivation even coming to Roshar. There's no way that they are some sort of Splinter of Honor, though it is speculated that the storms themselves could be Honor's perpendicularity. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

1 minute ago, StrikerEZ said:

@Lord Maelstrom I like your theory, but the Highstorms existed on Roshar prior to Honor/Cultivation even coming to Roshar. There's no way that they are some sort of Splinter of Honor, though it is speculated that the storms themselves could be Honor's perpendicularity. 

Do you mind showing me the canon source for that? I don't have access to any of the SA works right now, so I wasn't able to check.

Regardless, the gist of my theory was about how splintering works based on Elantris. I was just trying to fit in Honor's splintering to that mold, but I don't really know enough about Honor to know what happened really. Maybe Odium had to use a different process to splinter Honor. I don't really know.

[StrikerEZ]

17 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Do you mind showing me the canon source for that? I don't have access to any of the SA works right now, so I wasn't able to check.

Regardless, the gist of my theory was about how splintering works based on Elantris. I was just trying to fit in Honor's splintering to that mold, but I don't really know enough about Honor to know what happened really. Maybe Odium had to use a different process to splinter Honor. I don't really know.

Yeah, give me a sec to find it. I'm pretty sure it's a WoB. 

(In case I can't find it, @Calderis @Extesian @The One Who Connects)

EDIT: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Highstorm#10

Ugh, I don't know to get the WoB to imbed itself, but it's the tenth one on that page.

Edited July 10, 2017 by StrikerEZ

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Side note: It's "splinter" not "shatter". I'm also guilty of using Shatter, but we really should be making an effort to use the correct term.

Splintering and shattering are essentially the exact same thing. I think the only reason there even are separate terms is be "The Shattering" refers specifically to Adonalsium, and shards are reduced to "Splinters." 

21 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

As for Honor, I'm not sure. I think that the Rosharan equivalent of the Dor is the Storm itself, seeing as how the storm is the main source of Investiture on Roshar. So, I think that Odium killed Honor, and was rushed in the process of splintering (probably for the same reason he couldn't leave the system) so instead of creating another Dor, he threw the investiture back on the planet. Doing so left a lot of "rogue" investiture on the planet, which is what formed the storms.

As @StrikerEZ said, the storms predate the arrival of the Shards. 

OK, there's two here that I'm going to spoiler for length, because one asks about the storms predating the shattering, and things because of that which he RAFOs, and a followup that references back to that (from the same signing) that specifically mentions confirmation, which he doesn't RAFO and does not refute. I know I've seen clearer, but this is the best I can find at the moment. 

Spoiler

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1120#43

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1120#45

Quote

QUESTION

If the highstorms existed prior to the Shards’ arrival, what’s the relationship between the highstorms and the Stormfather?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh good question. I was wondering if someone was going to ask that. So, I’ll try...let me see…[sighs] You know, I’m actually going to RAFO this one. And let me tell you why, because I mean, I want to give you some reasons to be interested in the things that Dalinar will be talking about with the Stormfather. So this is a RAFO with an explicit promise for book 3. These are things that will be covered now that we have bonded the Stormfather to a person who can now ask some of these questions. I could totally just tell you now, but where the fun of that? Read book three.

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QUESTION

This whole talk of both Roshar and the highstorms, I’m glad that you said they predate the Shattering. There are some people on 17th Shard that believe the entire continent is crem that’s accumulated, one highstorm at a time.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good. Let me actually squish that one a little bit because there are mineral deposits that have been mentioned that you have to mine, and crem...there is actual ferrous iron that you can smelt on Roshar, you have to know how to get to it and things like that, and there are actual gemstone mines and things like that, but they’re much harder to get to and Soulcasting is a stopgap that’s helped with this a lot, but there are actual deposits and things like that.

 

 

Additionally, there really is no Dor equivalent on Roshar, as the investiture is still existing in the Spiritual Realm as it naturally does, unlike Sel's issues with the Cognitive 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1177#12

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QUESTION

Question about the stormlight itself : a highstorm, full of stormlight, fills the spheres. Then, the KR use the stormlight or the stormlight evaporates with time. Question : where does the stormlight in highstorms come from ? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the stormlight ?

BRANDON SANDERSON

the stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

 

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I know I've seen clearer, but this is the best I can find at the moment. 

I can't find it either, but there's one that specifically says that Honor "co-opted" several things upon arrival, and that Surgebinding wasn't one of them. However, we do have this one.

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There was a point when the Heralds didn't need to draw Stormlight from gems, although the stormlight-in-gems predates Honor's arrival.