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Shardgun


ZenBossanova

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8 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said:

In fact you have 'perfect' accuracy and can shoot over and around things, but lashing directly to your target or uninvested equipment on the target.

Except you need contact to create a lashing, and then only in a direction not at a moving target. So once the projectile leave the gun, it's on a set path according to it's new gravitational pull, but still subject to wind and air resistance and most likely the coriolis effect. You just lose the need to aim high to fight gravity.

There no homing bullets, sorry. 

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I see the biggest difference happening in introducing gunpowder, rifles, and cannon into Roshar.

A few cannons could take a thunderclast down as well as a Herald could. You don't even need to be a surgebinder to do that. 

But I don't initially see a tremendous reason for Shardguns, except when you don't happen to have a gun on you, but you do have ammo. 

It would be a nice bit of versatility when needed.

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26 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said:

lashing directly to your target or uninvested equipment on the target.

You don't actually lash to a target, you lash in the direction of the target, and Szeth seems to use the target as a "that way" so he doesn't have to devote as much mental focus towards where to lash the target.

I can lash you to the far wall by specifically lashing you south, but it's less mentally taxing to use the far wall as a "direction" because it is easier to be spatially aware about the room. When a battle is going on, south stops meaning anything, while the back wall is a constant.

10 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

gunpowder,

Not feasible due to Highstorms. That's why gunpowder more than likely won't ever be invented on Roshar.

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1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

Not feasible due to Highstorms. That's why gunpowder more than likely won't ever be invented on Roshar.

Most people are inside, safe and dry, during a highstorm. I really don't see why this is an issue. 

Besides, if it is being used in war, then I expect it to be soulcast. 

You could even soulcast a large quantity into a battlefield, so that when you are attacked by Voidbringers, you can go Guye Fawks on them. 

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3 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Most people are inside, safe and dry, during a highstorm. I really don't see why this is an issue. 

Besides, if it is being used in war, then I expect it to be soulcast. 

You could even soulcast a large quantity into a battlefield, so that when you are attacked by Voidbringers, you can go Guye Fawks on them. 

In order to soulcast it, they first have to discover how to make it. 

Between the higher volatility due to higher oxygen levels on Roshar, and the rain and lightning of highstorms, the one who connects is most likely correct. 

They have no need to work towards chemical means of propulsion and power, when they have fabrial tech. 

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3 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Besides, if it is being used in war, then I expect it to be Soulcast. 

That's why I brought up it being invented. You can't Soulcast something that you don't know about. And worldhoppers probably wouldn't bring gunpowder to the Highstorm capitol of the Cosmere because of the water issues.

6 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Most people are inside, safe and dry, during a Highstorm. I really don't see why this is an issue. 

This doesn't suddenly make the outdoors less humid and wet.

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In order to soulcast it, they first have to discover how to make it. 

Or, they have to have an example to work from. If (and only if) Jasnah brought some with her, then they can use that as a starting point. 

 

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Between the higher volatility due to higher oxygen levels on Roshar, and the rain and lightning of highstorms, the one who connects is most likely corre

Then you adjust the chemical composition of the gunpowder, by adding some filler. This isn't a dealbreaker. 

 

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

They have no need to work towards chemical means of propulsion and power, when they have fabrial tech. 

This would be much cheaper than fabrials, I expect. 

 

3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

This doesn't suddenly make the outdoors less humid and wet.

This isn't a dealbreaker on Earth. I think Roshar could work that out. 

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4 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

This isn't a dealbreaker on Earth. I think Roshar could work that out.

Earth doesn't have the Weeping or essentially worldwide mega-hurricanes every so many weeks. It doesn't equate as well. Water doesn't soak into rock as well as it does into soil either

4 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

This would be much cheaper than Fabrials, I expect.

If they are Soulcasting the materials, Fabrial-Tech will probably be more efficient, as you have one universal fuel source rather than multiple ones at different levels. Interchangeability means a lot when developing technology.

Edited by The One Who Connects
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1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

That's why I brought up it being invented. You can't Soulcast something that you don't know about.

Yep. It's why Jasnah failed so miserably at making strawberry jam. She didn't know what the ingredients were, so attempting to make it off of a single smell turned out poorly. 

(sorry I'm not able to attribute things to you when I'm unable to quote. Mobile won't let me @ you because of the space after the.) 

12 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

This would be much cheaper than fabrials, I expect. 

With how common gems are on Roshar, and the pervasive nature of stormlight, I disagree. 

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It all kind of makes more sense to me if you broaden the definition of what is considered a "shardgun".  I mean, the way brandon has talked about the relationship between nightblood and shardblades...  but nightblood is absolutely nothing like rosharian (dead or alive) shard blades...

Imagine instead if a 2nd era scadrian like Wax found out about shardblades, and tried to adapt that to scadrian investiture, and was able to invest a firearm somehow to the point it got psuedosentient...  I see that as more likely than an actual rosharan shardgun.

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Considering how most of Roshar doesn't have soil and crem acts as a plant fertilizer, it's reasonable to speculate that crem is rich in nitrogen containing compounds; in particular, potassium nitrate, a major component of gunpowder, is a common and naturally occurring nitrogen containing compound.  In real life, we've been harvesting potassium nitrate as a fertilizer and food preservative since the Middle Ages.

Sulfur is also found in most fertilizers...and charcoal is easy to make.

Basically, if Rosharans want to manufacture gunpowder, they probably just need to figure out how to separate potassium nitrate and sulfur out of crem and setup some charcoal kilns.  Some ardent is bound to figure out how to distill useful chemicals from crem eventually.

Edited by hwiles
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46 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Considering how most of Roshar doesn't have soil and crem acts as a plant fertilizer, it's reasonable to speculate that crem is rich in nitrogen containing compounds; in particular, potassium nitrate, a major component of gunpowder, is a common and naturally occurring nitrogen containing compound.  In real life, we've been harvesting potassium nitrate as a fertilizer and food preservative since the Middle Ages.

Sulfur is also found in most fertilizers...and charcoal is easy to make.

Basically, if Rosharans want to manufacture gunpowder, they probably just need to figure out how to separate potassium nitrate and sulfur out of crem and setup some charcoal kilns.  Some ardent is bound to figure out how to distill useful chemicals from crem eventually.

I don't disagree that they could. I disagree that they will in a time frame that makes it practical to mass produce it. 

Necessity is the mother of invention. There's no need driving them towards producing any of the components to create gunpowder accidentally, let alone on purpose. Storm water naturally fertilizers the plants. Then you have this WoB

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1088#21

Quote

QUESTION

For Words of Radiance, could you put a comment about something in the upcoming books, something not too specific, just something I can think about? Something like "Renarin has a spren" you wrote for somebody else in The Way of Kings?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Brandon wrote "Stormlight makes plants grow" in the guy's book.

TAGS

stormlight

Combine that with Eshonai thinking about the Parshendi using the gemhearts at farms to feed themselves, and it seems likely that fertilizer is a non-issue. 

The fabrial we've already seen make it so that technology like pumps, and elevators aren't far off. Their industrial revolution is going to come very soon, and move very quickly, with no need of combustion.

The elements exist on Roshar to make things similar to our tech. The drive to make them through means of chemistry is completely undercut through the expedience, and unified study of Fabrial-Tech. They can use one system that encompasses almost everything we do through chemistry, electronics, mechanical engineering... The one and only drawback to their system over ours is the weeping. They will advance far more quickly than we did once fabrial science makes a couple of breakthroughs. 

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I agree that the study of fabrial technology will permeate all levels of scientific and engineering advancement in Stormlight Archive Era 2, however, even if soulcasting replaces all chemical engineering, mining, distilling, and chemical refining processes, which I find to be somewhat unrealistic, soulcasters will still need vast mounds of crumbled rock.

The best way to make giant mounds of crumbled rock with very little effort is to drill small holes into the side of a mountain and shove sticks of dynamite in.  Making and using gunpowder is just too easy and commercially valuable to pass up.  I'll concede that I find the idea of traditional guns and bullets popping up on Roshar unlikely, since I believe fabrials (or shardguns) would make better weapons, but dynamite is another issue.  Particularly on a planet where carving out canyons is the best way to build new cities.

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4 hours ago, hwiles said:

but dynamite is another issue.  Particularly on a planet where carving out canyons is the best way to build new cities.

Same issue as Gunpowder in that they'd have to learn of it's existence. Explosives aren't exactly common knowledge.

Additionally, if you get a 5th Level Dustbringer, they could probably carve lines into a mountain, and Navani and the Artifabrians will be all about replicating Radiant abilities with Fabrial-Tech. I'd argue that the renewable fuel that is Stormlight will be more efficient than constantly creating more explosives. And if they would have to Soulcast the explosive materials, then division Fabrials would cut out a step and use that Stormlight for it's intended purpose faster. As Wit says, men value timeliness above all else.

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54 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Same issue as Gunpowder in that they'd have to learn of it's existence. Explosives aren't exactly common knowledge.

Additionally, if you get a 5th Level Dustbringer, they could probably carve lines into a mountain, and Navani and the Artifabrians will be all about replicating Radiant abilities with Fabrial-Tech. I'd argue that the renewable fuel that is Stormlight will be more efficient than constantly creating more explosives. And if they would have to Soulcast the explosive materials, then division Fabrials would cut out a step and use that Stormlight for it's intended purpose faster. As Wit says, men value timeliness above all else.

There's a good deal of worldhopper traffic through Roshar, and discovering explosives when the raw materials are staring you in the face (metaphorically speaking...) isn't an impossible feat given a few decades of peace (assuming Odium can be killed or ejected from the system).

Fabrial technology making explosives completely unnecessary is a possibility, I'll grant you.  However, if there are only ever a few hundred (or even a few thousand) Radiants, they shouldn't be able to run the entire planet's construction industry.  Fabrials run into a different limitation; they require gemstones.  Powerful fabrials require large gemstones.  While gemstones are common on roshar (and possibly a renewable resource) very large gemstones should remain rare, particularly if greatshell populations continue to decline as was noted in WoR.  Meaning that while simple fabrials, like spanreeds and heating-units, may become commonplace, as they can basically be powered through the tiny gems that make up Rosharan currency, large devices and soulcasters ought to remain scarce.  There just aren't enough large gemstones for everyone to have a soulcaster.

Rosharans can't soulcast everything they need, which is why a significant portion of the population has always been dedicated to agriculture.  Things like dynamite would allow the Alethi elite to make their darkeyes fantastically more productive in general labor tasks without having to commit their most prized resources.  I contend that the labor of 1,000 Radiants and 1,000 artifabrians could not match the labor of 1,000,000,000 darkeyes with pickaxes and dynamite, and even if it could, why would they bother?  If some darkeyes with dynamite can take care of digging all those pesky holes, the artifabrians can work on solving real problems, like starvation, death by exposure, and the wage gap...well...maybe not that last one...:ph34r:

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3 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Meaning that while simple Fabrials, like Spanreeds and heating-units, may become commonplace, as they can basically be powered through the tiny gems that make up Rosharan currency, large devices and soulcasters ought to remain scarce.  There just aren't enough large gemstones for everyone to have a Soulcaster.

I'm curious about how synthetic gemstones would work in a situation like this. Mostly because he doesn't mention Spren at all in his response. I know they are just as "out there" as explosives, but these are something they would work towards.

As for productivity, if you just need raw rock to Soulcast, then explosives are probably the better option in the long run.
But if you need to "clear out canyons to make a city" I think you said, then Division Fabrials could probably be more precise for actually making buildings and stuff

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16 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Well now you've done gone blown my mind lol.

Touche, synthetic gemstones counter all of my previous objections.  They probably shouldn't be able to reach that point technologically within the currently proposed timeline for Roshar Era 2, which I think is like 20-40 ish years after Era 1, as that's some pretty sophisticated chemistry and engineering.  But suddenly the prospects of cross-over battles between Roshar and Scadrial in the distant future seem much more interesting...Giant lightweaver deathrays could actually be plausible if they're allowed to manufacture their own gemstones.

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Just now, hwiles said:

They probably shouldn't be able to reach that point technologically within the currently proposed timeline for Roshar Era 2, which I think is like 20-40 ish years after Era 1, as that's some pretty sophisticated chemistry and engineering.

I believe it's 15 years between the front and back 5. And so what? You didn't expect them to chemically dissemble crem and turn it into dynamite in 15 years did you?

The whole point of pondering the future of tech developments is for the far future. When Scadrial hits Era 4, where will Roshar be?

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  • 4 weeks later...

I don't get why anyone would want a shard-gun, It would literally do nothing unless there was a bayonet because it wouldn't be hurting anyone. Same with a bow, it would just be able to send arrows farther. What if instead, the bullet was the spren, not the gun, then you would have unlimited ammo and would be much more deadly

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/19/2017 at 9:25 PM, King Cole said:

What if instead, the bullet was the spren, not the gun, then you would have unlimited ammo and would be much more deadly

Not feasible, and actually lacks the deadliness provided by a Blade.

Feasibility: With exception to the Stormfather, Spren cannot go very far away from the KR they are bonded to. A Shardbow won't break(because Shard Metal), and normal arrows can be launched much farther.

Deadliness: Shardblades are so deadly from slashes, not stabs. You can't reliably kill the core of a limb/spine if you cannot actually slice the entire core. A Shardarrow is too thin.
   Go outside and knock down a tree with a machine gun. Takes centuries because you only put a small hole in the trunk, whereas a saw slices the entire length of it. Bladeform is miles ahead in the deadliness factor, and has more surface area to actually make contact, whereas a bullet/arrow will miss if it's off by maybe half an inch.

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On ‎1‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 7:21 AM, The One Who Connects said:

You can't reliably kill the core of a limb/spine if you cannot actually slice the entire core. A Shardarrow is too thin.

The obvious solution is a shardarang. I'm not sure an Australian radiant is a good idea though :wacko:.

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36 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

What if they could get past the need for a conventional weapons and create as someone said a lightweaver death ray or a gun which can fire a gravitation beam and provide an ability to lash outside of the knights radiant.

The Lightweaving Laser has been discussed and there's possibly a WoB though I may be conflating two things. 

Anyway, the consensus was that it is technically possible with Lightweaving, but would be prohibitively expensive to pull off. 

The Fabrial-Tech gravitation gun on the other hand, is very plausible. I don't think we'll actually see them in the books, but the rate of progress for fabrials is fast enough I think that they're in the not too distant future. 

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3 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

What if they could get past the need for a conventional weapons and create as someone said a lightweaver death ray or a gun which can fire a gravitation beam and provide an ability to lash outside of the knights radiant.

Yeah, Lightweaver Death Ray was mentioned by Brandon as 'possible but so inefficient that it's not happening' along with other possible Investiture tricks like using Forgery to make a Shardblade.

But some sort of fabrial making use of Gravitation (either as a quasi-railgun or more exotically for long-range Lashings) seems entirely possible for Rosharans to develop given enough time. Though my guess is that we wouldn't see something like that until the end of the series, or post-SA in the big cosmere crossover that Mistborn Era 4 is supposed to be.

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