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Buschy

Questions about Secret History that don't add up

13 posts in this topic

After my second reading of Secret History, I have to very different questions.

1.  So we know Hoid travelled to the physical realm of Scadrial.  What I don't know is how did he get off of the planet?  From what I know, both shard pools weren't accessible after he travelled there.  Does anyone know?

 

2.  So Kelsier went to visit the people in the IRE in the cognitive realm.  Everything described about these people makes it seem that they are from Elantris.  The lights and even the descriptions of the people. (They even have light emitting from them).  They made a reference to devotion who was on Sel before being splintered.  Am I correct on this thought?  We know some of them travelled to the cognitive realm via the shard pool, but we just don't know if they died or not when entering the pool.  Since Devotion has been splintered, are they trying to get another shard to protect Elantris?

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5 minutes ago, Buschy said:

After my second reading of Secret History, I have to very different questions.

1.  So we know Hoid travelled to the physical realm of Scadrial.  What I don't know is how did he get off of the planet?  From what I know, both shard pools weren't accessible after he travelled there.  Does anyone know?

 

2.  So Kelsier went to visit the people in the IRE in the cognitive realm.  Everything described about these people makes it seem that they are from Elantris.  The lights and even the descriptions of the people. (They even have light emitting from them).  They made a reference to devotion who was on Sel before being splintered.  Am I correct on this thought?  We know some of them travelled to the cognitive realm via the shard pool, but we just don't know if they died or not when entering the pool.  Since Devotion has been splintered, are they trying to get another shard to protect Elantris?

Your first question is indeed a mystery. He probably didn't go anywhere until Mistborn 3 (since he was still on Scadrial as an informant then), and I'd guess he used Harmony's shardpool (or one of Harmony's shardpools, since I suspect he may have more than one) to get back into the Cognitive Realm after Sazed's Ascenscion. As for why he didn't just grab a bead and jump back into Shadesmar before things got funky... well, Hoid's intentions are his own, and we still don't know his ultimate mission, or what brought him back to Scadrial for the events of Era 2.

For the second question, I agree as well, and as I recall they lay that plan out pretty much in detail (even though they never name-drop Elantris directly). What about it doesn't add up? (Or is the title of the topic referring more to the first question?)

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What doesn't add up to me is why would they choose to live in the cognitive realm?  Unless they are all that remains of Sel. 

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12 minutes ago, Buschy said:

What doesn't add up to me is why would they choose to live in the cognitive realm?  Unless they are all that remains of Sel. 

Good question, but I think the answer is partly, because they can. There are a great number of people living their entire lives in the Cognitive Realm, and there is at least one great city there, Silverlight. But this is a topic no knows much about. That is not a complete answer, but it is a start. 

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10 minutes ago, Buschy said:

What doesn't add up to me is why would they choose to live in the cognitive realm?  Unless they are all that remains of Sel. 

Well, the Ire are old. The name literally means "Time, Age." I fully think that they left Sel a long time before the Reod, possibly even pre-splintering(unlikely, but possible, as they would have to leave via the CR, which isn't exactly a safe way to go right now)

Alonoe shares her name with Lake Alonoe, which is the Dot in the middle of the base Aon. Naming her after the lake just feels wrong, given that she wasn't born an Elantrian(as I don't think that's possible). Naming the lake after her sounds more reasonable, despite the fact that it would make her quite literally ancient. Maybe she dropped her old name when she joined the Ire..? It'd be an interesting question to get answered, if nothing else.

The aforementioned CR being hard to traverse on Sel could also explain why they are still in the CR. They can't go back to Sel, and plan to take up a Shard of their own to fix that problem(maybe, they might just want it for power/study purposes)

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So if the CR on Sel is chaotic and deadly, do the cognitive shadows of the dead get ripped apart before going to the Beyond?

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Nice summary there @The One Who Connects. I do disagree on one thing (though not a hard disagree), the age of the Ire. In AU, Khriss refers to the splintering of Devo and Domi as being in the times of human pre-history, so I don’t think I can accept the pre-splintering idea. I’m not necessarily even sure that the IRE were formed before the Reod. Elantris is already set a long time before most of the other books so I could see the IRE being ‘old’ at the time of SH, and it would fit it with their Shaod-like status.

 

But then I also have the theory I posted Here. If that’s right, then the IRE could be from any time since Elantris was built (though not before, unless they returned to Sel meanwhile). That theory said that Elantris is a huge artificial boost to natural AonDor-user powers and that once Elantris was built, any initiated AonDor-user coming within the operating vicinity of Elantris would start to change, but that when Elantris is non-functioning, that change would be aborted halfway through, trapping them in Shaod state. One possibility of this is that someone who is already a full Elantrian, and leaves Sel, could revert to Shaod state. That last bit is the most speculative though.

 

So yeah it's up in the air, but my bet on the IRE is that they're from post-Elantris but pre-Reod, or are simply Elantrians that left post-Reod but pre-Elantris restoration.

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Just now, Extesian said:

so I don’t think I can accept the pre-splintering idea.

I didn't really think it was likely, but it was the only time that I could guarantee the CR being safe to travel through.

I just can't shake the feeling that Alonoe sharing her name with the Lake that makes up part of Aon Aon is important. It's unlike us to pass over something that blunt

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11 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I didn't really think it was likely, but it was the only time that I could guarantee the CR being safe to travel through.

I just can't shake the feeling that Alonoe sharing her name with the Lake that makes up part of Aon Aon is important. It's unlike us to pass over something that blunt

I know you qualified it as being very unlikely J I just wanted to note that, in my mind, it’s more than very unlikely, simply because of that line in AU. I agree it’s challenging with CR there all messed up, but Hoid can do it, so I reckon a well-prepared Elantrian probably can. It’s still hard to imagine, but still more likely than a pre-splintering IRE I think. But no criticism of raising the option, we know little enough that we should consider every possibility.

 

And yeah the point about Alonoe was not one I’d seen before, and I like it. I don’t have any useful speculation to add, but I do like it.

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1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

So if the CR on Sel is chaotic and deadly, do the cognitive shadows of the dead get ripped apart before going to the Beyond?

A paraphrase from a signing suggests this to be the case since it was mentioned that the Hoed who dissolve in the pool get torn apart in the Cognitive Realm.

I don't think anyone's asked Brandon what the implications for this are in terms of Sel as a whole. It might only apply to Elantrians because they're so heavily Invested, ie everyone else gets pulled Beyond so quickly that the 'Dor storm' doesn't have a chance to affect them.

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I do wonder if some of the Hoed might have managed to dodge the danger if they were careful and joined up with the Ire, or even a New Elantrian or two, but the timing may not be generous enough for the New Elantrians as of Secret History, and it would probably be ridiculously hard/impossible for a Hoed in a lot of pain and with no ability to use kinetic investiture to dodge the uncontrolled investiture and the other perils of the Cognitive.

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At the AU signing in Chigago I asked about the timing between the IRE entering the cognitive realm and the breaking of Aondor because of the chasm (I was thinking that they may have accidentally caused the chasm and been stuck).  Brandon answered by asking "who says they all entered at the same time" and then further clarified by saying that some of the IRE were from before the chasm and some after.

Since then I feel like the the name IRE was picked to represent their intent rather than their history.  So, "we intend to continue forever" rather than "we are really old."  Also, I have realised that the non-elantrian guards are probably also considered part of the IRE so they had to come from somewhere as well.

To answer the actual question, I think they were trying to get a shard simply to give themselves power, in this case to Preserve themselves.

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3 hours ago, GildedBear said:

At the AU signing in Chigago I asked about the timing between the IRE entering the cognitive realm and the breaking of Aondor because of the chasm (I was thinking that they may have accidentally caused the chasm and been stuck).  Brandon answered by asking "who says they all entered at the same time" and then further clarified by saying that some of the IRE were from before the chasm and some after.

Since then I feel like the the name IRE was picked to represent their intent rather than their history.  So, "we intend to continue forever" rather than "we are really old."  Also, I have realised that the non-elantrian guards are probably also considered part of the IRE so they had to come from somewhere as well.

To answer the actual question, I think they were trying to get a shard simply to give themselves power, in this case to Preserve themselves.

Woah I'd forgotten about this one, I saw it long ago but the transcript wasn't good so I'd forgotten, and it's hard to search. But it's brilliant. Are you able to even 'complete' the WoB, below? This impacts on my thread about the mechanics of Elantris and AonDor.

Quote

Question

Not really sure what the question exactly is, but it relates to the chasm and breaking AonDor. Seems like the question was written in the book?

Brandon Sanderson

Some are from before, some are from after. They are not all the same age.

 

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