Shardblades and eye color

[The One Who Connects]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Great, this means the Kholin's bloodline has Windrunners, Truthwatchers within their line. Also since colors probably mixes themselves up, there may even be some Edgedacners at some point to account for Adolin's light blue eyes.

It also means that I can reasonably assume Navani is where Jasnah inherited her violet eyes, as the wiki has nothing(like it did with Dalinar).

Violet... so Willshaper Heritage?

[Chinsukolo]

Just wanted to post this as relevant to the conversation.

 

Darkness: When a darkeyed person obtains a shardblade. Does their new eye colour reflect the specific type of blade they bonded?

Brandon: Yes.

 

It's from Supernova signing, but is to long to quote.  Here's the link:

 

 

[maxal]

30 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It also means that I can reasonably assume Navani is where Jasnah inherited her violet eyes, as the wiki has nothing(like it did with Dalinar).

Violet... so Willshaper Heritage?

Yes I agree, but I didn't list it as Navani isn't a Kholin, only by alliance. It would however means Elhokar would have "Willshaper" heritage. My personal theory is the Kholin's bloodline is mixed with former Windrunners/Truthwatchers while Shshshshsh's bloodline is the one mixed with Edgedancer, but huh, that's just a pet theory.

[Calderis]

58 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It also means that I can reasonably assume Navani is where Jasnah inherited her violet eyes, as the wiki has nothing(like it did with Dalinar).

Violet... so Willshaper Heritage?

@maxal sorry to nitpick but I don't think this shows a link back to the Orders themselves, just the Spren that the blade their ancestors picked up were. 

So I guess it's probably a semantics issue. Because when I hear Willshaper heritage I imagine a human Willshaper ancestor. 

Where what I'm seeing as happened in this instance is someone, at some point after the recreance, pick up a blade that was a fallen Willshaper's spren, and that person then went on to pass their eye color genes down to Navani/Jasnah. 

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Calderis said:

So I guess it's probably a semantics issue. Because when I hear Willshaper heritage I imagine a human Willshaper ancestor. 

Poor choice of wording on my part. I meant heritage of someone who had a Willshaper Blade.

Impromptu English Lesson Class: Some words are very important to sentence comprehension

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@maxal sorry to nitpick but I don't think this shows a link back to the Orders themselves, just the Spren that the blade their ancestors picked up were. 

So I guess it's probably a semantics issue. Because when I hear Willshaper heritage I imagine a human Willshaper ancestor. 

Where what I'm seeing as happened in this instance is someone, at some point after the recreance, pick up a blade that was a fallen Willshaper's spren, and that person then went on to pass their eye color genes down to Navani/Jasnah. 

You are probably right. It makes more sense this way, though I loved to imagine the Kholin's bloodline once was filled with Radiants.

[Darkness]

On ‎17‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 11:53 PM, maxal said:

Elhokar's eyes color changed in WoR: Brandon wanted to make them the same color as Gavilar. It is one discontinuity element we are aware of.

Oh great, I had wondered about his eye color and I couldn't find a reference. I wonder if they are light blue like Adolin or just blue.

That's probably a typo. Brandon commented on Elhokar's eyes in the past.

Great, this means the Kholin's bloodline has Windrunners, Truthwatchers within their line. Also since colors probably mixes themselves up, there may even be some Edgedacners at some point to account for Adolin's light blue eyes.

That's not at all what the quote means. It means that for any given darkeyes-become-shardbearer, their eye color corresponds to the specific blade they bonded. It says nothing about genetics or even lighteyes bonding different shardblades (for example, if adolin bonded a windrunner blade, somehow I doubt his eyes would turn blue).

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

It means that for any given darkeyes-become-shardbearer, their eye color corresponds to the specific blade they bonded. It says nothing about genetics

We are aware, as Calderis corrected me about that implication yesterday when I misspoke about "Willshaper Heritage". I feel that it should still be genetic, as a new Shardbearer(Moash) was given the option of making his own house under the Kholin Banner. If his kids would retain their darkeye status, I feel like he wouldn't really have that much power as a house in the future. Just my opinion however, as your WoB is all we have to (dis)prove it.

1 hour ago, Darkness said:

even Lighteyes bonding different Shardblades (for example, if Adolin bonded a Windrunner blade, somehow I doubt his eyes would turn blue).

This was another question that I wanted answered. Sadeas would be our best example, but I don't have an eye color from before or after because I haven't searched the books yet.

[+Extesian]

So I started doing this list to confirm eye color matches shardblade-type, and a few other things. But now that we have that WoB I feel like I’ll let this list languish. So I’m posting it for anyone who wants to look for trends and such. Note that I can’t guarantee this is comprehensive, but I basically searched for the word ‘eyes’ in both Stormlight books and checked every one for mention of colors. Some is a bit shorthand, and I didn’t bother to reference the lines or page numbers. But they are in order so it gives a bit of an idea.

 

The main thing for me to note is that we don’t have Sadeas’ eye color, either before or after his acquisition, we have what seems to me to be Elhokar having blue eyes at one point (we know yellow was an error, but blue??), we don’t have Amaram’s since his acquisition. But anyway, hope this is marginally useful to people.

 

 “Each of theTen Essences had an analogous part of the human body - blood for liquid, hair for wood, and so forth. The eyes were associated with crystal and glass. The window into a person’s mind and spirit.”

 

Kaladin – dark brown

Shallan  - light blue

Jasnah – pale violet

Taravangian – pale grey

Kabsal – blue

Teft – brown

Szeth – “The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from Dark Green to pale-almost glowing-sapphire, a unique effect of this particular weapon”

Dalinar – blue

Elhokar – light yellow, but error

Wit –blue

Chasmfiend – green

Adolin – blue

Vamah – light grey

Laral – bright pale green

Teshav – violet

Elhokar1/4 through WoK – blue

Radiant in Taffa vision – light tan (amber stormlight leaks from the plate, also used topaz/heliodor fabrial for healing)

Male radiant companion – very pale blue eyes, plate leaks blue stormlight, male windrunner/skybreaker

Teleb, dalinar’s guard – light green

Moash half way through WoK – dark green

 Roshone light green

Kaladin self healing after storm - amber light 

Hashal pale blue 

Amaram light tan 

Dunny violet 

The mistress very bright violet 

Recreance radiant (also tanavasts avatar) palest blue 

Navani violet 

Wit with flute pale blue 

Taln dark brown 

Gavilar, pale green

Moash – first brown,

Khal, yellow

Siah aimain, deep blue

Larkin – solid silver

Zahel, brown

Jakamav – pale green (no blade, just plate)

Shallan – light blue (1/3 through WoR)

Szeth – eyes darkened from sapphire blue when his blade was dismissed

Taln – dark

Soulcasters – like their property

Shallan – light blue later in WoR (after blade use)

Redin – bustard of shallan’s highprince – one brown, one intense blue

Mraize – violet

Wit in carriage – blue

Elhokar – pale green halfway through WoR

Moash – light tan after bonding

Kaladin after third oath – extremely pale blue

 

 

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, Extesian said:

The main thing for me to note is that we don’t have Sadeas’ eye color, either before or after his acquisition, we have what seems to me to be Elhokar having blue eyes at one point (we know yellow was an error, but blue??), we don’t have Amaram’s since his acquisition. But anyway, hope this is marginally useful to people.

It's greatly useful. It confirms Navani having violet, which makes the Kholin Family Tree have consistency, Still lacking one for Renarin apparently, which is more surprising than lacking one for Sadeas.

It also means that I don't have to search for Sadeas's, which I was going to do later anyway. Taravangian has pale grey eyes... for some reason, I feel like I'd known this and forgot.

[Darkness]

I forgot that Shallan has pale blue eyes. I wonder if that was her eye color at birth. It seems that windrunners are blue like Kaladin... But are lightweavers also blue? I also wonder if Hoid's 'life-sense' via Breath can detect radiants. Maybe that's how he recognized Shallan at the fair.

Also, Calderis was saying yet another different thing, just mentioning that IF eye color was genetically inherited, then it could also relate back to the people that picked up the Shardblades, and not just the radiants. What I am saying, is that we have no confirmation that eye color runs in family lines at all, beyond being 'light' or 'dark'. In fact, the drastic variety in the Kholinar bloodline makes me think that while 'lightness' is heritable, the color is not. That is completely different from the way it works on Earth, but earthly genetics doesn't really apply anyway.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Darkness

[maxal]

1 minute ago, Darkness said:

I forgot that Shallan has pale blue eyes. I wonder if that was her eye color at birth. It seems that windrunners are blue like Kaladin... But are lightweavers also blue? I also wonder if Hoid's 'life-sense' via Breath can detect radiants. Maybe that's how he recognized Shallan at the fair.

There is a quote which says Shallan's eyes didn't change color as they already were light.

 

 

[Darkness]

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

There is a quote which says Shallan's eyes didn't change color as they already were light.

 

 

oooo! Where is that?! And is it talking about when Shallan first bonded pattern as a child, or just when she summons him or reinstates the bond later on in life?

Edited June 19, 2017 by Darkness

[maxal]

6 minutes ago, Darkness said:

oooo! Where is that?! And is I talking about when Shallan first bonded pattern as a child, or just when she summons him or reinstates the bond later on in life?

It was about why Shallan's eyes didn't change color to match her orders while Kaladin's did. The answer was she already is a lighteyed, so her eyes aren't getting red as they should while Kaladin is a darkeyed. There is definitely something about having lighteyes.

[Darkness]

15 minutes ago, maxal said:

It was about why Shallan's eyes didn't change color to match her orders while Kaladin's did. The answer was she already is a lighteyed, so her eyes aren't getting red as they should while Kaladin is a darkeyed. There is definitely something about having lighteyes.

awesome! Though it's too bad that freckled, redhead Shallan can't have red flecked irises... That would look amazing

[Calderis]

24 minutes ago, Darkness said:

Also, Calderis was saying yet another different thing, just mentioning that IF eye color was genetically inherited, then it could also relate back to the people that picked up the Shardblades, and not just the radiants

I was saying that I think it is genetic, and only goes back to the those who picked up dead blades. 

From what we've seen so far, and this may change with more oaths, Radiants eyes revert to dark and it is not a permanent change. 

And again we have limited information as to the Rosharan genetics of eye color, per the list that @Extesian compiled above we see three eye colors connected with the Kholin all in multiples that mimic a parent. 

Blue: Dalinar and Adolin

Green: Gavilar and Elhokar 

Violet: Navani and Jasnah

It's to small a sample size to be definitive, but it does imply a genetic component. 

[+Extesian]

5 minutes ago, Darkness said:

awesome! Though it's too bad that freckled, redhead Shallan can't have red flecked irises... That would look amazing

As a lover of redheads that would be nice

Interestingly the Mistress has pale violet eyes and Shalash is the Lightweaver patron. 

And @Calderis i entirely agree. It has to be genetic/ hereditary to an extent coz that's why lighteyes exist, and I agree its based on bonding with a dead Shardblade (presumably where the bond was intact at the point of, ahem, conceiving).

But yeah I compild the list hoping for something wrong, but the sample size is small and there are few unexplainables. Shalash having violet eyes is now bothering me. I guess without the Honorblades the Heralds' eyes may revert. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Extesian

[Darkness]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I was saying that I think it is genetic, and only goes back to the those who picked up dead blades. 

From what we've seen so far, and this may change with more oaths, Radiants eyes revert to dark and it is not a permanent change. 

And again we have limited information as to the Rosharan genetics of eye color, per the list that @Extesian compiled above we see three eye colors connected with the Kholin all in multiples that mimic a parent. 

Blue: Dalinar and Adolin

Green: Gavilar and Elhokar 

Violet: Navani and Jasnah

It's to small a sample size to be definitive, but it does imply a genetic component. 

Apologies, I misinterpreted your previous comment. And you make a good point about Kaladin reverting back to dark. Now I want to know if the original radiants' kids before the recreance had light eyes... Like if they conceived while being light eyed haha.

I could accept the bloodlines component I think. I would want to know that Renarin had either Dalinar's or Eva's color.

What do you guys think was going on with Kaladin's brown to amber to light blue transition?

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Darkness said:

What do you guys think was going on with Kaladin's brown to amber to light blue transition?

It was either an intentional change like with Elhokar's, or it was a progression. 

His eyes are normally brown eyes were lightening to amber at a lower oath, and hadn't actually transitioned to blue until the third Oath. 

I'd accept either explanation really. 

15 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Shalash having violet eyes is now bothering me. I guess without the Honorblades the Heralds' eyes may revert. 

Considering we don't have confirmation of where the Heralds are from, and we know that the eyes revert from Honorblades (see Szeth) I wouldn't be surprised if that was just her natural eye color. 

[+Extesian]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It was either an intentional change like with Elhokar's, or it was a progression. 

His eyes are normally brown eyes were lightening to amber at a lower oath, and hadn't actually transitioned to blue until the third Oath. 

I'd accept either explanation really. 

Considering we don't have confirmation of where the Heralds are from, and we know that the eyes revert from Honorblades (see Szeth) I wouldn't be surprised if that was just her natural eye color. 

Ahh now Kaladin's eyes weren't amber, my language was clumsy. When he wa accidentally healing himself after being strung up, with spheres, his eyes leaked amber stormlight. The same way the Radiants in the vision, when using a regrowth fabrial, had amber light emerging. It's a regrowth surge thing, not his eye color changing. Sorry about the wording. 

And Calderis I agree that the Heralds shouldn't necessarily have the surge eye colours without their blades. It's just her eye color is so distinct and magic sounding, very pale violet, almost white. I don't think it's suspicious, just... interesting

[The One Who Connects]

43 minutes ago, Darkness said:

What I am saying, is that we have no confirmation that eye color runs in family lines at all, beyond being 'light' or 'dark'. In fact, the drastic variety in the Kholinar bloodline makes me think that while 'lightness' is heritable, the color is not.

Did nobody look at the family tree I posted on page one? I wouldn't call it a confirmation, but it's still far more than the nothing your statement implied we have.

Quote

                                Brightlord Kholin - ??   -------     Brightlady Kholin - ??
Lady Kholin - ??    -------    Dalinar - blue    ---||---     Gavilar - light green    -------    Navani - violet
 Renarin - blue?    ---||---    Adolin - blue                   Elhokar - light green    ---||---    Jasnah - pale violet

Renarin is still up in the air of course, as his are apparently not mentioned at all, per Extesian's list, which is both annoying and a little surprising.

6 minutes ago, Darkness said:

I could accept the bloodlines component I think. I would want to know that Renarin had either Dalinar's or Eva's color.

I'm also curious which sibling inherited their mothers eyes out of Dalinar and Gavilar.

I know genetics don't actually work like this, but if Renarin got his mothers eyes, then he probably inherited that quality from his father(counter-intuitively enough), which means that Dalinar has his mother's eyes I don't know why, but this sounded better in my head.

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Considering we don't have confirmation of where the Heralds are from, and we know that the eyes revert from Honorblades (see Szeth) I wouldn't be surprised if that was just her natural eye color. 

Her eyes are also described as "faint violet, so faint as to be almost white," according to the Coppermind. We know that she is Jezrien's daughter, and Brandon literally has Kalak see the anguish in Jezrien's eyes without so much as a subtle mention of color for us to go off of.

[Calderis]

Side tangent... The imprisoning a shardbearer thread got me thinking... Dismissing the blade only became possible after gemstones were added.

Once the blade is bonded it should be able to be dismissed and summoned regardless of whether a gem is in the hilt, right? So either breaking the gemstones should destroy the ability for the blade to be dismissed/summoned, or the blades weren't able to be bonded prior to the gems being added.

So did the gems being added also mark the beginning of the eye lightening? Or does the gem somehow allow the pseudo bond to progress further? 

I've managed to confuse myself here and I don't like it. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Calderis

[+Extesian]

So assuming Navani is right, you cannot bond a dead Shardblade without a gem. But my impression is that once it is bonded, the gem doesn't matter. It can be dun and the bond stays intact. Broken? I'd say yes. Or bearers wouldn't need to relinquish the bond you could just smash the stone, with the WoB above indicates is no longer the case. I'm assuming that realmatically the gem is the medium by which the bearer initially bonds the spren, that's all. I've underlined the relevant text from WoR.

As for eye lightening, yeah I'd expect so. Using a Shardblade without bonding it shouldn't really do much, you're not really using kinetic investiture. Whereas we see Moash, for example, having his eyes change when he bonds it. I think the act of bonding a Shardblade (ie bonding the not - alive - not - dead Schroedinger's spren creates a spiritual connection with it and that even though you can't surgebind your spiritweb is now invested with that flavor of investiture. That's what your eyes show

Spoiler

“Our breakthrough was realizing that the gemstones in the Blades—used to bond them—might not have originally been part of the weapons.”He frowned. “That’s important?”“Yes. If this is true, it means the Blades aren’t powered by the stones. Credit goes to Rushu, who asked why a Shardblade can be summoned and dismissed even if its gemstone has gone dun. We had no answers, and she spent the last few weeks in contact with Kharbranth, using one of those new information stations. She came up with a scrap from several decades after the Recreance which talks about men learning to summon and dismiss Blades by adding gemstones to them, an accident of ornamentation it seems.”He frowned as they passed a shalebark outcropping where a gardener was working late, carefully filing away and humming to himself. The sun had set; Salas had just risen in the east. “If this is true,”Navani said, sounding happy, “we’re back to knowing absolutely nothing about how Shardblades were crafted.”“I don’t see why that’s a breakthrough at all.”She smiled, patting him on the arm. “Imagine you had spent the last five years believing an enemy had been following Dialectur’s War as a model for tactics, but then heard it reported they instead had never heard of the treatise.”“Ah . . .”“We had been assuming that somehow, the strength and lightness of the Blades was a fabrial construct powered by the gemstone,”Navani said. “This might not be the case. It seems the gemstone’s purpose is only used in initially bonding the Blade—something that the Radiants didn’t need to do.”“Wait. They didn’t?”“Not if this fragment is correct. The implication is that the Radiants could always dismiss and summon Blades—but for a time the ability was lost. It was only recovered when someone added a gemstone to his Blade. The fragment says the weapons actually shifted shape to adopt the stones, but I’m not certain if I trust that. “Either way, after the Radiants fell but before men learned to put gemstones into their Blades and bond them, the weapons were apparently still supernaturally sharp and light, though bonding was impossible. This would explain several other fragments of records I’ve read and found confusing. . . .”

 

[Calderis]

@Extesian as I already said in the other thread, thanks. 

This definitely means that the eye lightening didn't start immediately after the recreance, but after the discovery of the bonding process.

Edit: as a side note, you find stuff for me, and help finish my thoughts so damnation often, I swear I've given you as much rep as all my other upvotes combined. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Calderis

[+Extesian]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Extesian as I already said in the other thread, thanks. 

This definitely means that the eye lightening didn't start immediately after the recreance, but after the discovery of the bonding process.

Edit: as a side note, you find stuff for me, and help finish my thoughts so damnation often, I swear I've given you as much rep as all my other upvotes combined. 

Ha, thanks Calderis. Yeah we complement each other pretty well on this site, I think we have similar ways of thinking, pretty similar levels of Cosmere knowledge and work well off each other. I know I’ve had a few theories that were incomplete until you corrected me, and vice versa. We upvote each other so much I’ve occasionally wondered if @Chaos will think we’re the same person, with two accounts, just upvoting each other, and he’ll bring out the Banhammer. It’s a pleasure continuing to do business with youJ

(We're totes separate people Chaos. I promise :D )

Oh and @The One Who Connects, I missed your post but all good points. I would think lightness, rather than color, could be what's passed on like its allomancy, not a particular metal, that's passed on in Scadrial. But the colors are matching up reasonably well for family groups, even if it's not certain and you can't maybe trace yet whether is mother, father or both. I'm also surprised we don't have Renarin's color. But i could have missed it with my 'eyes' search. 

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Extesian