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Raodens Dor Attacks


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21 hours ago, Amaror said:

The Svrakiss are described as the ancient enemy of Jaddeth (Dominion) and thus could be the reason why Dominion is in his current state. Some sort of tool Odium used to splinter Dominion and Devotion.

There's the obvious "Odium didn't leave any power behind on Sel" entry, but I don't think that would completely contradict you. However, I do have this:

Quote

Chris King (Miyabi)

And here is the last one for Sel: Does Shu-Keseg predate the splintering of Devotion and Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I don't believe it does.

If the splintering predates Shu-Keseg, then I don't see something used in said splintering becoming the enemy of the Derethi offshoot religion without there being a similar thing in Korathi teachings.

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1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

There's the obvious "Odium didn't leave any power behind on Sel" entry, but I don't think that would completely contradict you. However, I do have this:

If the splintering predates Shu-Keseg, then I don't see something used in said splintering becoming the enemy of the Derethi offshoot religion without there being a similar thing in Korathi teachings.

What? That WoB said that Shu-Keseg does NOT predate the Splintering, but you might have just missed the not in your sentence. We don't know all that much about Shu-Korath or Shu-Keseg other than their basic principles. Who's to say there isn't something similar to the Svrakiss in the Korathi teachings? Besides we also don't really know how the three religions came about, since they seem to have started after both Shards were allready splintered and they couldn't directly influence the creation of these religions. My personal guess is that it has most likely something to do with the splinters left behind, namely Seons and Skaze. And maybe the Skaze just have more reason to talk about the splintering, I don't know. We really don't know enough about this World yet to make truly educated guesses about how these religions came about and what the meanings behind the various teachings are. 

What I do know is that it would be unlike Brandon to put a prelavent thing like this into a worlds mythologie and not have it mean or represent something in the cosmere.

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7 minutes ago, Amaror said:

That WoB said that Shu-Keseg does NOT predate the Splintering, but you might have just missed the not in your sentence.

He didn't say Shu-keseg predates the splintering, he said the splintering predates Shu-keseg. 

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22 hours ago, Amaror said:

influence the creation of these religions. My personal guess is that it has most likely something to do with the splinters left behind, namely Seons and Skaze. And maybe the Skaze just have more reason to talk about the splintering, I don't know.

Biggest issue I have with that is that the Korathi and Derethi teachings are offshoots of Shu-Keseg. If Shu-Keseg wasn't the origin point, then I could see the Seons/Skaze making them. I admit, they could have influenced the priesthood and created the schism between the two, but I don't really see either of them having a hand in crafting Shu-Keseg, which makes me quite curious about it... again.

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3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Biggest issue I have with that is that the Korathi and Derethi teachings are offshoots of Shu-Keseg. If Shu-Keseg wasn't the origin point, then I could see the Seons/Skaze making them. I admit, they could have influenced the priesthood and created the schism between the two, but I don't really see either of them having a hand in crafting Shu-Keseg, which makes me quite curious about it... again.

Well another possibility could be that it's about the land and the people. AonDor can only be performed by people with Aonish blood, and Dakhor-Dor can most likely only be performed by Fjordish people. Given that, it may be possible that the land the people descended from it are just naturally more attuned towards the two shards  Some more towards Devotion, some more towards Dominion and some somewhere inbetween. Since Shu-Keseg came from a Jindo, maybe the Jindo people are more neutrally attuned in general. After the religion spread it could have naturally changed into the two seperations Shu-Derethi and Shu-Korath based on how attuned the people of those countries were towards the different shards. 

Fjordell are more attuned towards Dominion so they slowly changed and adapted the Shu-Keseg religion into Shu-Derethi, while Aonish people adapted it into Shu-Korath. This would explain how these two religions, that describe the two present shards so well, appeared even though the people most likely didn't know about the existence of said shards. 

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2 minutes ago, Amaror said:

Well another possibility could be that it's about the land and the people. AonDor can only be performed by people with Aonish blood, and Dakhor-Dor can most likely only be performed by Fjordish people. Given that, it may be possible that the land the people descended from it are just naturally more attuned towards the two shards  Some more towards Devotion, some more towards Dominion and some somewhere inbetween. Since Shu-Keseg came from a Jindo, maybe the Jindo people are more neutrally attuned in general. After the religion spread it could have naturally changed into the two seperations Shu-Derethi and Shu-Korath based on how attuned the people of those countries were towards the different shards. 

Fjordell are more attuned towards Dominion so they slowly changed and adapted the Shu-Keseg religion into Shu-Derethi, while Aonish people adapted it into Shu-Korath. This would explain how these two religions, that describe the two present shards so well, appeared even though the people most likely didn't know about the existence of said shards. 

The Dor is a single combination of the Shards. The Derethi religion does seem to focus more on Dominion side, but I think it is purely cultural. 

Dominion and Devotion are no longer two separate things. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

The Dor is a single combination of the Shards. The Derethi religion does seem to focus more on Dominion side, but I think it is purely cultural. 

Dominion and Devotion are no longer two separate things. 

Yeah I know, but the significant differences in ways to access the Dor hints for me that, even though the dor itself is the combination of both shards, that the ways to use it are clearly influenced by the intent of the seperate shards. Just look at how brutal Dakhor-Dor is. Monks killing themselves to change the bodies and abilities of another sounds very dominating to me. AonDor can heal while Dakhor-Dor cannot. If AonDor is of devotion, that makes perfect sense, since healing isn't very dominating.

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Just now, Amaror said:

Yeah I know, but the significant differences in ways to access the Dor hints for me that, even though the dor itself is the combination of both shards, that the ways to use it are clearly influenced by the intent of the seperate shards. Just look at how brutal Dakhor-Dor is. Monks killing themselves to change the bodies and abilities of another sounds very dominating to me. AonDor can heal while Dakhor-Dor cannot. If AonDor is of devotion, that makes perfect sense, since healing isn't very dominating.

And Dahkor is only usable by the self sacrifice of those devoted to the Derethi religion. 

It's twisted, but it's still there. 

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4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And Dahkor is only usable by the self sacrifice of those devoted to the Derethi religion. 

It's twisted, but it's still there. 

Thats really just twisting words. In the same way I could say they aren't devoted but rather dominated by the religion. They are extremely obedient and willing to serve. There may be some of devotions intend in there but it is clearly, in my view, way more geared towards domination than devotion. I don't claim that all ways do access the Dor are purely inspired by the intent of one of the shards, but there is clearly more devotion in AonDor and more Dominion in Dakhor-Dor.

Edit: Actually we don't really know how much devotion towards the Derethi-Religion is required for a months sacrifice to work. I personally doubt that the Derethi-Religion is this intrinsically linked towards the magic system. I rather think the point is more that the monks are obedient enough to sacrifice themselves for the access of the Dor in the first place that makes it work. We don't know enough about Dakhor-Dor to really tell anyway. 

Edited by Amaror
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2 minutes ago, Amaror said:

Thats really just twisting words. In the same way I could say they aren't devoted but rather dominated by the religion. They are extremely obedient and willing to serve. There may be some of devotions intend in there but it is clearly, in my view, way more geared towards domination than devotion. I don't claim that all ways do access the Dor are purely inspired by the intent of one of the shards, but there is clearly more devotion in AonDor and more Dominion in Dakhor-Dor.

I don't think it's merely twisting words. I believe that it truly requires a willing self sacrifice that can only be achieved through truly loving the Shu-Dereth religious ideals. 

If that weren't a requirement, they would sacrifice other people instead of wasting man power. 

It's a twisted and ugly form of love, but it is still the love of a zealot for their beliefs. 

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1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I don't think it's merely twisting words. I believe that it truly requires a willing self sacrifice that can only be achieved through truly loving the Shu-Dereth religious ideals. 

If that weren't a requirement, they would sacrifice other people instead of wasting man power. 

It's a twisted and ugly form of love, but it is still the love of a zealot for their beliefs. 

I heavily doubt that the Derethi-Religion has anything to do with it. It could be that they have to truly be devoted to the derethi ideals, but what are those ideals. Obedience, Authority and Ambition. All things that sounds quite like Dominion. 

But I don't think they have to believe in those Ideals at all. The reason that they use monks is that is has to be a Self-Sacrifice. The subject has to willingly sacrifice themselves in order to make the access to the Dor work. And that sounds very much like Dominion. 

But we could discuss this forever because, while Dominion and Devotion are opposed intents, there is always some overlap between the shards. And you can always make the claim that someone completely dominated is merely devoted towards their master. For me the situation is like Theon and Bolton in Game of Thrones. When Theon is so broken by Boltons torture that he diligently shaves his master even though he could technically kill him in revenge, would you say he was devoted towards Bolton? I would say that he was being dominated by Bolton and that it's the same case with Dakhor-Monks.

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27 minutes ago, Amaror said:

I heavily doubt that the Derethi-Religion has anything to do with it. It could be that they have to truly be devoted to the derethi ideals, but what are those ideals. Obedience, Authority and Ambition. All things that sounds quite like Dominion. 

But I don't think they have to believe in those Ideals at all. The reason that they use monks is that is has to be a Self-Sacrifice. The subject has to willingly sacrifice themselves in order to make the access to the Dor work. And that sounds very much like Dominion. 

But we could discuss this forever because, while Dominion and Devotion are opposed intents, there is always some overlap between the shards. And you can always make the claim that someone completely dominated is merely devoted towards their master. For me the situation is like Theon and Bolton in Game of Thrones. When Theon is so broken by Boltons torture that he diligently shaves his master even though he could technically kill him in revenge, would you say he was devoted towards Bolton? I would say that he was being dominated by Bolton and that it's the same case with Dakhor-Monks.

They do reach that point through domination (which is not what Dominion means) but I don't think that matters. Stockholm Syndrome is a real thing. 

To a mindless force whether we're speaking of the Dor, or the mechanics behind any Cosmere magic really, how an emotion is achieved has no bearing, just that it's there. So love being a requirement is still there, they just reach it in a twisted route. 

Dominion specifically has to do with the land. Land influences and shapes culture, which influences and shapes religion. In Fjordell (Fjorden?) the land and nation and religion are all tied together, so Devotion to Shu-Dereth is Devotion to all three. 

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Just to add to that, I actually think that all of the Selish magic systems have equal parts Dominion and Devotion. In fact, I almost have an easier time connecting Devotion to Dakhor than AonDor to be honest.

AonDor:
    Devotion: To some extent the ease of the Aon's and their connection to a specific location is what made the Elantrians into these benevolent Gods. They were stuck there, as long as they wanted to use the Aons, and it was much easier for them to be generous to the people around them than to have to worry about revolt. So, they build a glorious city, and many of them devote themselves to some form of work, whether healing, study, masonry, etc.
    Dominion: Dominion is associated with Control, Sovereignty, and Power. AonDor gives you all of that. Sovereignty over the people of Arelon through the giving of free stuff. Control and Power stem directly from the Aons themselves. The ability to live an extremely long life, to travel wherever you wish with a wave of the hand (though you wouldn't want to go too far), to change your appearance, change rocks into food, etc. It's all in the nature of Controlling something. And part of why people devote themselves to study is because greater study of the Aons gives greater control and power.
So what I see happening with AonDor is that Devotion feeds Dominion and vice versa. They aren't really opposite. The nature of AonDor is basedin study and practice (Devotion), but it's uses are in control (Dominion)

Dakhor:
    Devotion: Gaining access to Dakhor is an extremely painful process, which goes really well with the concept of being devoted to a cause. Without really firm dedication, you aren't going to stick around long enough to become a full Dakhor user (Hrathen being a perfect example). And there is the previously mentioned example where a Monk is devoted enough to his leader to be willing to sacrifice himself for convenience. Obedience and dedication are ingrained.
    Dominion: And yet again, a lot of this has to do with having power. Being stronger, faster, smarter. More prowess, power and control. The ability to excercise dominion over others through fear and force. And the order also lends itself to gaining sovereignty over your fellow monks.
So, where I think the magic system of Dakhor itself is balanced between the two, I think that the more Dominion-based Derethi teaching associated with Dakhor in our minds make it more likely for us to see Dahkor as a Dominion centered system. However, again, the boundaries between Dominion and Devotion is unclear, if existent at all. Are the Monks doing what they are doing because they seem Dominion? Because those over them have Dominion on them? Or are they dedicated to their cause? I think it's a mix. I mean, IRL monks are the image of Devotion, and the Dahkor do certainly include that aspect of monkhood.

Forging:
    Devotion: Forging requires the forger to have a deep grasp of the history of the entity being altered, thus requiring a strong devotion to the work. The amount of research and trial required in good Forgery shows a dedication to the work. Especially for those who consider Forgery a piece of art.
    Dominion: But the nature of Forgery is to have control over another object, bending it to you perception of what it should be.
This is especially true when applied to Soulforging. Soulforging gives you a lot of control over your own self, but creating the seals takes an intense amount of dedication and time. Again, devotion to the work gives you greater dominion over the world around you.

I'm not going to lay out Bloodsealing, ChaiShan and Potion Making, as we don't know much about them. However, I suspect that you'd get the same pattern, where both Devotion tot he work, and Dominion being the result of said work implies that they are based on a balanced combination of the two shard's intents.

At this point, I almost see the "intent" of the Dor (which is shown in pretty much all of the magic systems of the Dor) is that it rewards Devotion with Dominion over the things of the world. The more dedicated you are to some cause or work, the more power and control you get. So really, none of them are more to one side or the other in my mind. The people who use them may be more to one side or the other due to the culture they are from, but the magic itself doesn't encourage one more than the other. It's also a great way to see that the new intent is good or evil, as both good and evil applications derive. (Yes, I am considering Dahkor inherently evil, and AonDor more on the Good side. Not sure about ChaiShan or Forgery, but I think Bloodsealing is quite dark.)

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15 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Snip

That makes a lot of sense, I think you might be right. 

Not offense to you Calderis, but he just argued the point a lot better and more extensively. Though I still don't understand why you focussed on the Derethi-Religion so much. It would be a first for a magic system to be intrinsically linked to one specific man-made thing. Exspecially since the Religion was born after both shard were shattered.

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Just now, Amaror said:

That makes a lot of sense, I think you might be right. 

Not offense to you Calderis, but he just argued the point a lot better and more extensively. Though I still don't understand why you focussed on the Derethi-Religion so much. It would be a first for a magic system to be intrinsically linked to one specific man-made thing. Exspecially since the Religion was born after both shard were shattered.

Because in my mind, the religion and the nation are one, and Devotion to the nation is Devotion to the land of that nation by what we've seen of Sel. 

I think that for Fjordell, it's all bound together. So my own thoughts interfered with a clear explanation. 

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