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Raodens Dor Attacks


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I recently reread Elantris and got a theory on the exact origins of Raodens painfull Dor Attacks, that he suffers before he knows to draw the chasm line to make the Aons work.

Maybe this "theory" is obvious, but I just noticed it so I want to share it. So Raoden gets regular pain attacks from the dor, which make him glow in some way. His own theory on why this happens is that he just may be stronger connected to the Dor than everyone else. I always thought that this wasn't it. 10 Years isn't incredibly long, but it's long enough for a lot of people to be taken by the shaod, at least if it's rate is anywhere near the books. If it just required strength in the Dor there had to be some Elantrians with at least similar strength and I think people suddenly starting to glow would have stayed in people's mind.

My theory is that his attacks are because he trained in using the Aons. I think that the Elantrians bodies, when drawing Aons, basically act like catalysts for the investiture from the Dor. They draw the Signs which the Dor uses to take shape and do things. The fact that the shining lines still appear for the "unfinished" elantrians and the fact that Raoden was able to use magic before finishing the city shows that some of the Dor still moves into the world through the Sheod-Elantrians, it just can't travel through properly because the signs are unfinished. So were does that Energy go? I don't think all of it just evaporates in the light of the Aon itself. It think more of it travels through, but gets stuck when the sign isn't done properly. It just stays in the Elantrians body. It's why the incident with dilafs wife happened. The sign wasn't finished properly but the Dor still pushed through and caused all that damage. Now the Dor can get through the Sheod-Elantrians way worse than before, so not much energy escapes.

But my theory basically is that through training over and over again in the Aons, more and more Energy tried to take shape in the Aons, failed, and then settled in Raoden's body. The more time he spent training in Aons the more energy got trapped in his body. It tries to escape, resulting in Raodens pain attacks, but it can't because, unlike normal Elantrians bodies, Raoden's Sheod-Elantrian body can't radiate Dor Energy naturally. It tries to escape again and again and when it finally has a chance to do so, through Raoden drawing a Aon capable of channeling the Dor all the Energy stored in Raoden escaped at once leading to that overly powerfull Aon he experienced.

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Well, I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with how he practiced drawing the Aons. Yes, he was the first Shaod Elantrian to practice AonDor, but he was definitely not the only one. By the end of the book, several other Elantrians had been practicing as well, and now of the other ones had the glowing or immense pain like Raoden had. I'm not good with this whole theorizing thing, so I'll let others poke and prod at your theory, but I still don't think that's the case. I just don't know what is.

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9 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Well, I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with how he practiced drawing the Aons. Yes, he was the first Shaod Elantrian to practice AonDor, but he was definitely not the only one. By the end of the book, several other Elantrians had been practicing as well, and now of the other ones had the glowing or immense pain like Raoden had. I'm not good with this whole theorizing thing, so I'll let others poke and prod at your theory, but I still don't think that's the case. I just don't know what is.

I hardly think he was the first. I think he was just the most stubborn Elantrian doing it, caused by a combination of his optimism and his allready existing knowledge of Aons. I don't propose the theory that everyone practicing the Aons would have gotten this reaction. As I said some of the Dor settles into the Elantrian body. But a little of that Energy wouldn't be enough to really do anything. But Raoden practiced the Aons every day for 2 months. So more and more energy settled into his body. After a time it became enough energy to cause his pain attacks. And then they became stronger as he continued to practice them.

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Truth be told, I always felt it was like Dalinar's visions or Vin's thing with the Mists, ie: chosen by the shard type of deal

Don't have much of anything to back that up, but the similarities almost felt intentional to me, like this was a universal(cosmeriversal?) thing that could be done

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I just finished the Elantris annotations and according to them you're exactly right.

Practing with the incomplete Aons created a buildup of the Dor around Raoden which caused the attacks. This buildup of pressure is also why his first Aon with the Chasm line was disproportionately powerful. 

Raoden Wasn't the first to have this happen, but without adding the Chasm line and releasing the pressure, the few others who practiced the Aons eventually surrendered to the attacks and became Hoed. 

Edited by Calderis
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On 10.06.2017 at 0:40 AM, Calderis said:

I just finished the Elantris annotations and according to them you're exactly right.

Practing with the incomplete Aons created a buildup of the Dor around Raoden which caused the attacks. This buildup of pressure is also why his first Aon with the Chasm line was disproportionately powerful. 

Raoden Wasn't the first to have this happen, but without adding the Chasm line and releasing the pressure, the few others who practiced the Aons eventually surrendered to the attacks and became Hoed. 

Do you happen to remember which annotations is that in?

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9 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Do you happen to remember which annotations is that in?

Ch. 49-2 

Quote

If you were wondering, most of the explanations we get in this chapter are true. The reason that Raoden was subject to the Dor attacks was because he spent so much time practicing with the Aons. He began to make a bridge between this world and the Dor, and because of that, he gave the Dor a slight opening into his soul. I imagine that he isn’t the first one to suffer something like this during the ten years that Elantris has been fallen. Other Elantrians probably practiced with the Aons, and the Dor eventually destroyed them. When it was done, they simply became Hoed.

By finally using the Dor effectively, Raoden relieved a little bit of the pressure, letting the nearby buildup of the Dor (the one that he himself had created by practicing so much) rip through him and fuel that single Aon.

 

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On 6/9/2017 at 3:30 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Truth be told, I always felt it was like Dalinar's visions or Vin's thing with the Mists, ie: chosen by the shard type of deal

Don't have much of anything to back that up, but the similarities almost felt intentional to me, like this was a universal(cosmeriversal?) thing that could be done

All though I do have to agree with annotations, I really like this conclusion. In fact, if we mix it with some Mistborn HS:

Spoiler

Let's take a look at when Kelsier tries to take in Preservation's power. He isn't connected enough to it for it to work well, and Ruin can completely shut him down. Vin ends up being much better connected, and pretty much an even match with Ruin. And Sazed was also described as having equal connection to both Ruin and Preservation, allowing him to absorb the power of both and become Harmony. See the 8th chapter of the 6th part of Mistborn Secret History to see what I mean.

So, if we take this to mean that someone can be more/less attuned towards a Shard, then it could mean that Raoden was simply more attuned to the Dor than most. Also, I'm fairly sure that there is a part of the book mentioning that some of the more experienced and powerful pre-Shaod were completely paralyzed when the Shaod happened. The transformation and cut off from the Dor was much more intense for them. I doubt that means that they simply built up a ton of Dor energy real fast. It makes more sense for it to simply be that they had always been more attuned to the Dor, and that they essentially got the full force of an attack right away.

And how this connects to Dalinar.... well I assume it has to do with a connection to Honor's power. After all, he does seem really honorable.

Now, that annotations seem to contradict this, which I find sad, as this would make so much more sense, but after a second thought, the annotations don't really contradict this theory. In fact the line "most of the explanations we get in this chapter are true" would almost seem to point to it. So yes, the use of unreleased Aons intensified attacks, but I feel like the strength of his Aons and the strength of the attacks might have to do with being more attuned or connected to the Dor somehow.

 

Disclaimer: I don't have my copy of Elantris with me as it is busy turning one of my friends into a Brandon fan, but i did have my copy of Arcanum Unbounded to reference. If some of what I say doesn't add up in the books, please correct me, and if you can find the citation for the whole pre-Shaod thing, then please add it in.

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Considering what the Dor is, the theory in the OP and the explanation in the annotations make perfect sense (except that the Investiture probably is not stored in Raoden himself but there is a higher "pressure" of the Dor in the CR around him). The "chosen by a shard" theory just cannot work here, since Odium splintered the shards and stuffed their Investiture into the Cognitive Realm. There is no sentience left to the Investiture, it acts more like a fluid under pressure with the Aons being the outlets into the Physical Realm (with all the awsome programming possibilities).

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I would also think the "chosen by shard" theory to be unlikely. Vin was directly chosen by the Preservations carrier as part of his plan against ruin and Dalinar was chosen by the Stormfather. Devotion and Dominion are both splintered, so they themselves can't make any cognitive choices anymore. And they "stuffed" together in an eternal struggle to keep them from forming a conscience. I suppose their could be a Stormfather-like great splinter of devotion that consciously chose Raoden, but given how much effort odium seems to have put into keeping both shard from gaining conscience, I find it highly unlikely that he would leave a conscious splinter of one of them in the world. 

Another thing I find quite interesting is the question were Elantris originally came from. We know that it's basically a giant Aon itself. That seems to suggest that the city is basically used program the Shaod to take place and create Elantrians. Which leaves the question of who designed and build the city to create the Elantrians. Hoid?

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27 minutes ago, Amaror said:

but given how much effort odium seems to have put into keeping both shard from gaining conscience, I find it highly unlikely that he would leave a conscious splinter of one of them in the world. 

Skaze and Seons go against your statement.

27 minutes ago, Amaror said:

Another thing I find quite interesting is the question were Elantris originally came from. We know that it's basically a giant Aon itself. That seems to suggest that the city is basically used program the Shaod to take place and create Elantrians. Which leaves the question of who designed and build the city to create the Elantrians. Hoid?

It was built by Elantrians. (somehow)

On 5/10/2017 at 11:29 AM, The One Who Connects said:
Quote

Given the way the city powers the Elantrians, I'm vaguely certain that it had to come before any Elantrians existed

Not quite.

Quote

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon—drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead 'discovered.'


Quote

If you're right, however, my first question still stands: "How was Elantris created in the first place?"

See here.

Quote

If you consider it, it makes logical sense that the Aons would be tied to ELANTRIS and Arelon, yet would work without them. The Aons had to exist before Elantris–otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn’t have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power.

So Elantrians had to exist to learn the Aonic language, which they had to do in order to know what shape to make the City

Which then led to this post.

On 5/15/2017 at 6:18 PM, Oversleep said:

Wait, wait, wait. I've only realized that there is something wrong.

As the WoBs of @The One Who Connects say:

  1. Only Elantrians can draw Aons (so it means they must have built Elantris. Nobody else could make it work):
    On 5/10/2017 at 11:29 AM, The One Who Connects said:

    The Aons had to exist before Elantris–otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn’t have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power.

  2. To become Elantrian you have to be taken by Shaod:
    On 5/10/2017 at 11:29 AM, The One Who Connects said:

    Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system.

So far it means that Shaod must have existed before Elantris. But there is this WoB:

Quote

The Shaod is an effect of Elantris.

source

which makes it all circular reasoning since to have Shaod you need Elantris and you can't build Elantris without Shaod having already existed.

And then the thread that Calderis just linked happened.

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23 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Skaze and Seons go against your statement.

Skaze and Seons aren't really like the Stormfather. They are conscious, but not as powerfull (At least Seons. Skaze might but they are of Dominion and wouldn't have chosen Raoden) or as, I don't know how to describe it, connected to their shard, maybe. The Stormfather seems to know, at least partially, his shards intent and consciously works towards helping that goal by choosing Dalinar. From what Interactions we have with Seons they don't really seem to know all that much more about how everything works on their world.

What I meant is that Odium wouldn't leave splinters as strong as the Stormfather.

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2 hours ago, Amaror said:

What I meant is that Odium wouldn't leave splinters as strong as the Stormfather.

He may not intend to, but we know that Investiture will try to attain sentience. We also know that the Dor is Investiture of both shards that are somewhat "melded" together. Had the investiture that composes the Seons clumped together though random chance of being nearby, they could have formed a Stormfather like entity regardless of Odium's cleaning efforts.

Quote

A: Under the right circumstances, a pile of investiture will eventually become self-aware. But there is no specific timing. The more investiture clumped together, the more likely--and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain.

The lack of specific timing means that it's still possible(however unlikely, there is a chance). Given that the Spiritual is not location dependent, I'm both unsure how Odium missed enough to make the Seons/Skaze, and how splintering actually looks. Does some of it "land" in the Physical perhaps? We should ask Brandon about this sometime.

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Spoiler Alert for the first Mistborn Series and for Secret History

Spoiler

I was referring to someone's character being more attuned or connected to a Shard based on their Character, bot because a Shard chose them. Examples are for example how Kelsier tended to be much more destructive than Vin, explaining why he had a hard time using Preservation's power and was outmatched by Ruin, while Vin was able to use it to kill Ruin. Or this quote from Secret History:

Quote

Kelsier stood in awe at the way they combined. He'd always seen these powers as opposites, yet as the swirled around Sazed it seemed that they actually belonged to one another. "How?" he whispered. "How is he Connected to the both, so evenly? Why not just Preservation?"
"He has changed, this last year," Elend said. "Ruin is more than death and destruction. It is peace with these things."

It makes it seem like Sazed's change in character attuned/Connected him towards Ruin, as well as Preservation. Neither Preservation or Ruin had a conciousness at this point, so it couldn't be that they chose him. No, this passage implies that it had to do with who he was.

So, if we take that conclusion, that you can be more connected to a Shard based on your character, then it might make sense for some Elantrians to be more connected to the ideal of Devotion (IE more devoted than others) and thus to feel the effects of the Dor more strongly. And I think we can all agree that Raoden was quite devoted to his work. Similarly Dalinar might simply be more "Honorable" than others, giving a greater connection to Honor, which in turn gave him the visions. After all, he was positively obsessed with Honor in those first two books.

I'm not saying that this is the only factor, I'm just saying that there is a lot pointing to your character connecting you to a Shard, which may have been why certain Elantrians were more susceptible to Dor attacks. In fact, the book almost says it right out, when saying that some of the more experienced or powerful Elantrians were completely paralyzed during the Reod. (Someone confirm this. I think my memory is accurate, but I can't check cause I don't got my copy on hand)

Edited by Lord Maelstrom
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On 22.6.2017 at 4:57 AM, Lord Maelstrom said:

Similarly Dalinar might simply be more "Honorable" than others, giving a greater connection to Honor, which in turn gave him the visions. After all, he was positively obsessed with Honor in those first two books.

Don't we allready know that Dalinars visions come from his Nahel Bond to the Stormfather? I mean you're sortof right, since his Nahel Bond most likely comes from his strive to be honorable and unite the alethi. 

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OK, scarp my previous theory. I'm currently re-listening to Elantris, and I have a new theory.

The Dor attacks come from the Dor trying merge with Raoden.

Quote

It struck while Raoden was studying. He didn't hear himself gasp in agonised shock, nor did he feel himself tumble from his seat in a spastic seizure.

All he felt was the pain. A sharp torment that dropped upon him suddenly and vengefully. It was like a million tiny insects each one latching on to his body inside and out to eat him alive.

Soon he felt as though he had no body. The pain was his body. It was the only sense, the only input, and his screams were the only product.

Then he felt IT. It stood like an enormous slick surface without crack or purchase, at the back of his mind. It pressed demandingly, pounding the pain into every nerve of his body, like a workman droving a spike into the ground.

It was vast. It made men, mountains, worlds, seem paltry. It was not evil, or even sentient. It didn't rage, or churn. It was immobile; frozen by its own intense pressure. It wanted to move, to go anywhere, to find any release from the strain. But there was no outlet.

(See the start of Chapter 37)

To me this sounds a LOT like how I picture a shattered shard. Non-sentient, but still having a drive. And yet huge and powerful. And also contained.

I think that over time as the shattered pieces of Dominion and Devotion started to gather back together, they formed the Dor. A single entity with a ton of Investiture, and no will, no sentience. I think that the "shattering" of a shard doesn't stop it from gathering so much as from forming or accepting a sentience, a shareholder if you will. But it still tries. The Dor is trying to make Raoden into a shard. Thing is, either something Odium did to the shards' powers or the fact that Raoden in a fallen Elantrian is making the process so painful that he is refusing and pushing away the shard.

The pain that he felt was no longer just the pain of his wounds, it was the pain of an attempted merger with a shard, coming to him over and over. The reason why it didn't do it before is because he wasn't an Elantrian before. And the reason why its him is because he is the only Elantrian who is giving people purpose (Devotion) while also dominating (Dominion) the people around him. He is the first Elantrian (person connected to the Dor) who embodies both halves, both shards, that make up the Dor. And I think that in a sequel we might see Raoden find a way to merge completely with the Dor.

It would be a genius way for Brandon to setup Raoden's assention without giving it away. Disguise it as part of an Elantrian's pain.

Edited by Lord Maelstrom
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@Lord Maelstrom Eh. I don't think I'd brush your theory off in and of itself, but with an explanation from the annotations I just can't subscribe to it. 

I can understand your reasoning, but the localized buildup of the Dor try to use him as a conduit and being unable to enter the physical realm fully explains the pain. 

Mistborn spoilers 

Spoiler

When Vin channeled the mists and ascended (and at that point Preservation was gone, the mists had no guiding mind) it literally vaporized her body and there was no description of it being painful.

In addition to my next point, the mists streamed into her from every direction. She literally pulled in all of them. 

The Dor is spread over the entire Cognitive Realm of Sel. Investiture normally resides in the Spiritual Realm which is location independent, so a Shard in the Spiritual can all flow through a single point and force ascension. For the Dor, this would have to have a mechanism to pull the Dor from across the entire Cognitive Realm into Raoden. I actually think this is what that limited localized buildup was doing, but I also think it would take so many more attempts at broken Aons to create a large enough buildup for that to happen that Raoden would become a Hoed long before it was feasibly possible. 

Dominion and Devotion have been forced together in the Cognitive Realm of Sel. They are one force at this point. With a full merger of the Shards, we know what their separate intents were, but I don't think we actually know what they are anymore. If they had a Vessel we may have a name for the new intent they would form is, but as a mindless force, named in world by people who are aware it exists, but don't truly understand what it is the name "Dor" gives us no understanding of what the intent of such a joined shard is. I think that Dominion and Devotions influence on the world was strong enough we still see remnants of their Intents effecting the world, and the pool shows that their Shardpools were not absorbed, but the Dor is not truly either one of them anymore. It's something completely unique in the Cosmere. 

Sorry for the wall of text... 

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So, I find myself satisfied by the wob which said that the attacks were because of his practicing.  However, he is a sensible person for the Dor to "pick".  In AU Khriss talks about how she thinks the land is somehow/sort-of gaining sentience because of all of the investature in the CR. (I don't have the specific quote right now) Well Raoden is both an Elantrian (the former rulers of Arelon), the son of King Iadon (the current ruler of Arelon), and beloved of the people who live in Arelon.  Who else would the country pick if it had a mind to pick somebody?

As for how various magics and peoples of Sel being either Devotion or Dominion.  Remember that AU says that Odium shattered them in the prehistory of the world, almost certainly before things like Aondor (which is location based) existed.  It seems to me that the magics and religions of Sel are all mixes of both Dominion and Devotion.  Shu Dereth is currently being used by Fjordell to dominate other countries, but the structure of the faith is centered around being devoted to the person who is above you in the hierarchy.  Not to mention the fact that Shu Dereth rejects the Skaze, who we speculate to be splinters of Dominion, as demons. (though I admit my memory of the book is fuzzy on the skaze; I am currently rereading) Shu Korath, on the other hand, use the phrase Merciful Domi" where 'Domi' comes from the Aon 'omi' which means love but also happens to be the first few letters of 'dominion'. (which could be a coincidence, but it's Brandon so it could be intentional as well or a happy accident) Similarly, while the Seons, which I believe we know to be splinters of Devotion, have/are Aons, old Elantris itself was, in some ways, quite dominating of Arelon. (Benevolently surely, but still dominating)

Sorry for the wall of text.  Was really just trying to point out that at the point in the Cosmere where Elantris (and most of the rest of the published stories so far) happens it is probably kind of pointless to try to piece apart which magics/people are devotion and which are dominion.  (of course, we also know that some things, Seons and the pool, are still more one than the other so maybe I should just not post while tired heh)

 

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9 hours ago, GildedBear said:

Not to mention the fact that Shu Dereth rejects the Skaze, who we speculate to be splinters of Dominion, as demons. (though I admit my memory of the book is fuzzy on the skaze; I am currently rereading)

That's the Svrakiss you're thinking of. On the other hand, the Skaze have a lot of influence in Fjordell.

Quote

The Svrakiss are the supernatural enemies of Jaddeth in the doctrine of the Derethi religion on Sel;[1] creatures that are half ghost, and half demon.[2]

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12 hours ago, Ammanas said:

What do most fans think the Svrakiss actually are? I thought they were cognitive shadows...and as a Gyorn my opinion, of course, has more weight ;)

I'm not sure they exist. I feel like the Shu-Dereth religion is probably based loosely on human's perception of what actually happened with the splintering of the shards, but I'm not sure. I also think that a ton of the Shu-Dereth religion is probably just straight up false.

So, the Svrakiss might be based on folk stories of the Skaze right after the splintering of Dominion, or maybe even on Odium himself during that battle. Or it could be for the same reason that almost all religions have some enemy or demon/devil. It might just be something that the priests threw in to scare their congregations into obedience.

So, all that to say that I don't think the Svrakiss are real.

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17 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

I'm not sure they exist. I feel like the Shu-Dereth religion is probably based loosely on human's perception of what actually happened with the splintering of the shards, but I'm not sure. I also think that a ton of the Shu-Dereth religion is probably just straight up false.

So, the Svrakiss might be based on folk stories of the Skaze right after the splintering of Dominion, or maybe even on Odium himself during that battle. Or it could be for the same reason that almost all religions have some enemy or demon/devil. It might just be something that the priests threw in to scare their congregations into obedience.

So, all that to say that I don't think the Svrakiss are real.

I think they maybe something of odium. It's fairly obvious that Shu-Korath represents Devotion and Shu-Dereth Dominion, while the origin-Religion Shu-Keseg represents that both shards are currently, in a way, combined. 

The Svrakiss are described as the ancient enemy of Jaddeth (Dominion) and thus could be the reason why Dominion is in his current state. Some sort of tool Odium used to splinter Dominion and Devotion.

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