Why is Nightblood extra heavy?

[Landis963]

On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 4:36 PM, Calderis said:

(I can't ping you on mobile so disregard the quote please) 

The reason I say this is because we've seen some insanely invested objects. One in particular in Mistborn Era 2 was a completely innocuous lump of metal that, other than Nightblood is probably the most invested thing we've seen, period. There was no odd weight to it. And Nightblood is described specifically as heavier than expected "for a sword of its size." 

I don't doubt that there is a mass to investiture. I agree, but I believe due to other objects as stated above, that that value is so low as to be imperceptible if it's not been converted into a physical state.

Counter-example from SA: 

Spoiler

Shardblades are very oversized hunks of pure Investiture, but they are much lighter than their size would imply. 

 

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

Counter-example from SA: 

  Hide contents

Shardblades are very oversized hunks of pure Investiture, but they are much lighter than their size would imply. 

 

Spoiler

Go read the bridgemen training with Zahel again. The swords are only light in comparison to normal swords. 

The bridgemen all say they are heavier than they expected. 

And you totally missed my point. 

Those blades are investiture made physical. The investiture in The bands was not. As I've stated elsewhere in this thread, I think that the investiture used to make Nightblood, just like that of a Shardblade, was shoved into the space between molecules that make up Nightblood. 

He's extra heavy because the physical investiture was added to the weight of the sword he was made from. 

If that investiture was not made physical, it would be like the Bands and add negligible weight. 

SA and Mistborn spoilers in there. 

[Landis963]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

  Hide contents

Go read the bridgemen training with Zahel again. The swords are only light in comparison to normal swords. 

The bridgemen all say they are heavier than they expected. 

And you totally missed my point. 

Those blades are investiture made physical. The investiture in The bands was not. As I've stated elsewhere in this thread, I think that the investiture used to make Nightblood, just like that of a Shardblade, was shoved into the space between molecules that make up Nightblood. 

He's extra heavy because the physical investiture was added to the weight of the sword he was made from. 

If that investiture was not made physical, it would be like the Bands and add negligible weight. 

SA and Mistborn spoilers in there. 

Oops, yes, that does make more sense. 

[Nathrangking]

Perhaps as an added factor it is worth considering that...

Spoiler

it constantly adds the investiture that it consumes which considering the theory that was proposed would explain the great weight in an even more satisfactory way.

 

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Nathrangking said:

Perhaps as an added factor it is worth considering that...

  Hide contents

it constantly adds the investiture that it consumes which considering the theory that was proposed would explain the great weight in an even more satisfactory way.

 

We know he feeds on and corrupts investiture in some way. Have we actually had confirmation that he retains it? 

[Nathrangking]

No one has explicitly asked the question. As far as I can tell from the WoB database it is likely, but not definitively dealt with.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

No one has explicitly asked the question. As far as I can tell from the WoB database it is likely, but not definitively dealt with.

Can you give reasons to support its likelihood?

It's one thing to say this is the way you think it works. It's another to say that it is. That requires support. 

[+Extesian]

24 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

No one has explicitly asked the question. As far as I can tell from the WoB database it is likely, but not definitively dealt with.

It has been RAFOd

Quote

Q: Is Nightblood any more Invested now than when she was created?
 
A: RAFO. (Good question.)

My belief is that Nightblood doesn't retain the investiture, or at least not fully. It's referred to as food for him. The smoke he gives off is a type of corrupted investiture. I suspect he uses investiture to fuel his power and converts it as a waste product, like we do with actual food. So I suspect he doesn't get more powerful coz the investiture is used.  But that could certainly be wrong, he's always seemed far too overpowered for 1000 breaths. Question is whether he's more powerful now than when he was created and used in the Manywar. We don't know but I have my doubts

[Nathrangking]

One specific question was asked if a shard could be harmed by nightblood. Brandon responded that it could because it "Contains" a lot of investiture the fact the word contains was used indicates that it holds it other wise that wording is strange. 

A further question asked why nightblood constantly needs to consume investiture. He replied that nightblood is leaky which also seems to indicate that there is some kind of storage otherwise what would it be leaking?

It also seems that someone asked what happens to nightbloods consumed investiture which was RAFO'D

Edited August 14, 2017 by Nathrangking

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, Extesian said:

It has been RAFOd

My belief is that Nightblood doesn't retain the investiture, or at least not fully. It's referred to as food for him. The smoke he gives off is a type of corrupted investiture. I suspect he uses investiture to fuel his power and converts it as a waste product, like we do with actual food. So I suspect he doesn't get more powerful coz the investiture is used.  But that could certainly be wrong, he's always seemed far too overpowered for 1000 breaths. Question is whether he's more powerful now than when he was created and used in the Manywar. We don't know but I have my doubts

I feel the same. 

9 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

A further question asked why nightblood constantly needs to consume investiture. He replied that nightblood is leaky which also seems to indicate that there is some kind of storage otherwise what would it be leaking?

I think it is referring to investiture, and it's the primary reason I feel he doesn't gain power. 

Just like gems leak Stormlight and eventually have none, I think anything beyond what Nightblood is, any excess leaks away. 

[Nathrangking]

In theory I can get behind the idea. I struggle with it simply because then at some point the investiture would run out and the smoke would disappear. However it is constant which to me indicates something more than a simple excess leaking out.

[Oversleep]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

  Hide contents

Go read the bridgemen training with Zahel again. The swords are only light in comparison to normal swords. 

The bridgemen all say they are heavier than they expected. 

And you totally missed my point. 

Those blades are investiture made physical. The investiture in The bands was not. As I've stated elsewhere in this thread, I think that the investiture used to make Nightblood, just like that of a Shardblade, was shoved into the space between molecules that make up Nightblood. 

He's extra heavy because the physical investiture was added to the weight of the sword he was made from. 

If that investiture was not made physical, it would be like the Bands and add negligible weight. 

SA and Mistborn spoilers in there. 

However...
(same spoilers)

Spoiler

However, Shardblades are not just Investiture made physical; they are also Invested.
But then lerasium and atium are also Investiture made physical and they are not Invested.

Furthermore, Bands Of Mourning/Survivor's Spearhead are not as Invested as a Shardblade and not even close to Nightblood which is orders of magnitude more Invested than a Shardblade (can't find this WoB right now).

Lerasium and atium are not unnaturaly heavy.
Bands (and other metalminds by extension) were not either.
Shardblades are lighter than they should be.
Nightblood is heavier than he should be.

All in all, it's safe to say it's an individual case thing and not "Investiture makes things heavy" thing.

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, Oversleep said:

However...
(same spoilers)

  Hide contents

However, Shardblades are not just Investiture made physical; they are also Invested.
But then lerasium and atium are also Investiture made physical and they are not Invested.

Furthermore, Bands Of Mourning/Survivor's Spearhead are not as Invested as a Shardblade and not even close to Nightblood which is orders of magnitude more Invested than a Shardblade (can't find this WoB right now).

Lerasium and atium are not unnaturaly heavy.
Bands (and other metalminds by extension) were not either.
Shardblades are lighter than they should be.
Nightblood is heavier than he should be.

All in all, it's safe to say it's an individual case thing and not "Investiture makes things heavy" thing.

Agreed. All of those things that have weight are due to the investiture being in a physical form. Any non-physical investiture doesn't seem to have a direct link to weight. 

It's a better phrasing of what I've been trying to say all along. 

[Nathrangking]

I'd just to point out the following:

Spoiler

As far as size goes Lerasium and Atium are not that large to begin with so their natural weight would be small. Now in terms of nightblood it is a unique case which cannot be compared to any other type invested object. The rate at which it consumes investiture is far and above anything in the entirety of the cosmere. My theory can stand and I'll stand by it until it is definitively disproven.

 

[Stormsurfer]

It's weight is probably determined by the number of breaths that it has consumed. 

 

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Stormsurfer said:

It's weight is probably determined by the number of breaths that it has consumed. 

Unlikely. As has already been discussed in this thread, if Breath had noticeable physical weight, the God King should be ridiculously heavy. 

[Stormsurfer]

It's possible that it could just effect inanimate objects in that regard

[+Extesian]

 unusual for me to go for a non-realmatic explanation but...maybe Nightblood is just made from a heavier metal.

[shadowwisp]

If there is a realmatic explanation for why Nightblood is heavier than it should be, then I highly expect the principles behind it to be similar to why roshar shardblades are lighter than expected. They are both Shardblades afterall. 

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, shadowwisp said:

If there is a realmatic explanation for why Nightblood is heavier than it should be, then I highly expect the principles behind it to be similar to why roshar shardblades are lighter than expected. They are both Shardblades afterall. 

Which is why I keep repeating that I think he has the initial sword weight, plus a "Shardblade" weight. 

Because, to me at least, it makes perfect sense. 

[DocHoliday]

Small tangent:what happens if Susebron is hit with Nightblood? 2opposing massively Invested beings coming into contact. Investiture repels other Investiture, would NB simply bounce off? I mean NB has a thousand breaths, that's a lot more than the average Awakener, but the GK has fifty times that at any given time. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by DocHoliday

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, DocHoliday said:

Small tangent:what happens if Susebron is hit with Nightblood? 2opposing massively Invested beings coming into contact. Investiture repels other Investiture, would NB simply bounce off?

I doubt it. He's still flesh vs a sword. 

And once Nightblood scratches him, he'd begin feeding... 

Nightblood seems to be an outlier in the "investiture resists investiture" rule in that he actively feeds regardless of the type. 

[+hwiles]

On 8/16/2017 at 4:51 PM, Extesian said:

 unusual for me to go for a non-realmatic explanation but...maybe Nightblood is just made from a heavier metal.

This really seems right and obvious to me; to expand on your statement for any who are just tuning in:

1. Nightblood was probably made of good steel to begin with, because if you're going to Invest a sword with 1,000 Breaths, you'd probably want it to be as durable and sharp as possible.  Steel is crazy heavy.
2. Nightblood is outrageously large compared to any sword a normal person would ever be able to effectively use regardless of how proficient a swordsman they were.  If you are under 7ft tall and on a planet with gravity similar to that of Earth, you aren't going to be able to wield Nightblood effectively, it's just too dang big.
3. When someone picks up a weapon that they are familiar with and that appears to be intricately customized and of obviously high quality, they don't expect it to be unwieldy or poorly designed.  They expect it's performance to match its appearance, and any deviation between the two is extremely confounding.  Think of an Italian sports car with an engine salvaged from a 70-year old rusted-out pickup truck; the idea simply boggles the mind.
4. A person picking Nightblood up would immediately be confused by its weight because their brain would be trying to reconcile the fact that they were holding a weapon that was impractical to use.  Out of context, this just doesn't make a lick of sense.  You would expect that Nightblood would weigh an appropriate amount when you reached to pick it up; when you lifted it and immediately realized that you could never swing it effectively, you would be momentarily shocked, as this betrays all of your natural assumptions.  By way of analogy, this would be like holding a grenade that's blast was so powerful, that no matter how hard you threw it it would still kill you; it defies your natural expectations of how a weapon works on a fundamental level.
5. Lastly, if Nightblood were any heavier than his physical dimensions already account for, Szeth would probably drown if he tried to swim while carrying it for more than a minute or two.  Obviously this hasn't happened yet, but the difference in difficulty for swimming while carrying just a few extra pounds of metal is non-trivial.

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, hwiles said:

This really seems right and obvious to me; to expand on your statement for any who are just tuning in:

The reason I've never thought this was because it specifically says that Nightblood seemed heavy for "a sword of it's size" and that was from Vasher's perspective. 

Claymores and other large swords are designed with balance in ming to offset some of their weight, but this is usually by adding weight to counterbalance the blade. 

For the sword to be overly heavy just by holding it, may be just the material, but that just feels... Off. 

[Nathrangking]

I would observe that when Vasher is suppressing his breath the blade may in fact be heavier for him than it looks that it should.  It may be balanced, but it is would still be extremely heavy for him in that form.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Nathrangking