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[OB] Clue to Odium's Imprisonment? (Spoilers)


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This little quote from Eshonai's flashback caught my attention:

Spoiler

“My ancestors,” he said, holding up the fabrial, “They’re the ones who first learned how to do this.” Hold a spren inside a gemstone. With a very special gemstone you can even hold a god.”

My immediate thought was, is this how Honor trapped Odium? We know that for some reason Odium is trapped in the Roshar system and can't escape, but we don't really know how. Could it be that Honor somehow managed to create a sort of gemstone that is able to hold an entire Shard?

Now, first of all, I don't think Odium is trapped in a tiny little gemstone somewhere on Roshar. After all, it would have to be a "very special gemstone". So my question becomes, how special would this gemstone have to be? A couple possibilities that are not super thought out but popped into my mind first:

  • The 'gemstone' is Braize (my instincts tell me this is most likely).
  • The 'gemstone' is the planet Roshar itself (which could be why Odium is so determined to destroy it).
  • The 'gemstone' is somehow the entire system (I really don't know how that would work but the planets in Ars Arcaneum looked interesting to me).
  • The 'gemstone' would have to be perfect (spherical?) so that it would be impossible for there to be leaks. There's a WOB on stormlight-leaking gemstones somewhere....

Let me know what you think! Is this what happened? What could the gemstone be? How does this play into the series as a whole?

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5 minutes ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

This little quote from Eshonai's flashback caught my attention:

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“My ancestors,” he said, holding up the fabrial, “They’re the ones who first learned how to do this.” Hold a spren inside a gemstone. With a very special gemstone you can even hold a god.”

My immediate thought was, is this how Honor trapped Odium? We know that for some reason Odium is trapped in the Roshar system and can't escape, but we don't really know how. Could it be that Honor somehow managed to create a sort of gemstone that is able to hold an entire Shard?

Now, first of all, I don't think Odium is trapped in a tiny little gemstone somewhere on Roshar. After all, it would have to be a "very special gemstone". So my question becomes, how special would this gemstone have to be? A couple possibilities that are not super thought out but popped into my mind first:

  • The 'gemstone' is Braize (my instincts tell me this is most likely).
  • The 'gemstone' is the planet Roshar itself (which could be why Odium is so determined to destroy it).
  • The 'gemstone' is somehow the entire system (I really don't know how that would work but the planets in Ars Arcaneum looked interesting to me).
  • The 'gemstone' would have to be perfect (spherical?) so that it would be impossible for there to be leaks. There's a WOB on stormlight-leaking gemstones somewhere....

Let me know what you think! Is this what happened? What could the gemstone be? How does this play into the series as a whole?

Out of context of the conversation I can see how you may think he is referring to Odium, but the conversation is clearly about the Parshendi "Gods" aka the Unmade. That fabrial he is holding up is implied to hold an Unmade.

On the topic of Odium's imprisonment there is a WoB that says that Hoid refers to Cultivation by the nickname "Slammer". This leads me to believe that Cultivation is directly related to Odium's imprisonment.

Quote:

Spoiler

post-18398-0-08731500-1465448359.jpg

 

1 minute ago, Bartimaeus said:

I do remember there being a WOB that's say a that if you had a perfect cut spherical gem theoretically, no stormlight would leak from it.

On the topic of gems themselves we have WoB that there is a limit to the amount of Investiture that physical objects can hold, and that probably includes gemstones.

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1 minute ago, Bartimaeus said:

I do remember there being a WOB that's say a that if you had a perfect cut spherical gem theoretically, no stormlight would leak from it.

Operating under the assumption that the OP is correct, which I'll be honest and say I don't believe, this would have to have been made magically. It's impossible with known technology to make a perfect sphere. It may be impossible to create while under a gravitational influence.

I manipulation of gravity may be able to help there. 

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6 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

Out of context of the conversation I can see how you may think he is referring to Odium, but the conversation is clearly about the Parshendi "Gods" aka the Unmade. That fabrial he is holding up is implied to hold an Unmade.

On the topic of gems themselves we have WoB that there is a limit to the amount of Investiture that physical objects can hold, and that probably includes gemstones.

Right, I don't think Gavilar knows about Odium (at least not completely). So I don't believe that Gavilar is making a reference to Odium, but I think Brandon might be giving us a hint. Because spren and the Unmade are just little pieces of Odium and other Shards, so if you can hold one of them in a gemstone why couldn't it work on a larger scale in theory?

And yeah, there is a limit to the amount of investiture that can be held in a gemstone, but Shards are not infinite in investiture (I think). So that's why it would probably take a 'very special' and probably very large gemstone to make it work.

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Operating under the assumption that the OP is correct, which I'll be honest and say I don't believe, this would have to have been made magically. It's impossible with known technology to make a perfect sphere. It may be impossible to create while under a gravitational influence.

I manipulation of gravity may be able to help there. 

Well yeah, that's why I think it would have been made by Honor and/or Cultivation. Cause, magic :)

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21 minutes ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

It's impossible with known technology to make a perfect sphere.

While I could be wrong, I always assumed that Brandon's reference to a "perfectly cut gemstone" meant that the gemstone was cut in some sort of geometric pattern; not into a sphere. Remember, "spheres" (money on Roshar) are actually just glass spheres with a cut gemstone in the center - it is the cut gemstone that holds stormlight.

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20 minutes ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

Right, I don't think Gavilar knows about Odium (at least not completely). So I don't believe that Gavilar is making a reference to Odium, but I think Brandon might be giving us a hint. Because spren and the Unmade are just little pieces of Odium and other Shards, so if you can hold one of them in a gemstone why couldn't it work on a larger scale in theory?

While spren and splinters are technically just little pieces of other shards it is very unlikely that things that work on spren would work on Shards. Their power has transcended that of any magic system, so I doubt the use of one would bind a Shard. The prison that Odium is trapped in is probably unrelated to the magic systems of Roshar (Mistborn era 1 Spoilers) 

Spoiler

in the same way that Ruin's prison was unrelated to Allomancy.

 

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3 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

While I could be wrong, I always assumed that Brandon's reference to a "perfectly cut gemstone" meant that the gemstone was cut in some sort of geometric pattern; not into a sphere. Remember, "spheres" (money on Roshar) are actually just glass spheres with a cut gemstone in the center - it is the cut gemstone that holds stormlight.

True, but if that's the case, not only would it need to be perfectly cut, but there are multiple cuts of gems. Which cut is best, what is the optimal number of facets. Is there an optimal size of facet? Does the size of the gem change the optimal cut? 

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Alterodent

With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

Brandon Sanderson

In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Alterodent

Would it actually give off light?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooh... Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Alterodent

No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a lightbulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is the quote I was talking about.

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

True, but if that's the case, not only would it need to be perfectly cut, but there are multiple cuts of gems. Which cut is best, what is the optimal number of facets. Is there an optimal size of facet? Does the size of the gem change the optimal cut? 

All good questions. I have no idea haha. Perhaps it varies from gem to gem? Perhaps there is one cut to rule them all? ;) 

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They're was a similar idea put forward last year by @ccstat.

Personally I'm sceptical and still think that Odium's prison comprises of taking an Oath that Honor could magically enforce on even a Shard. Hence things like nominating a champion. I also think that you can trap an Unmade but not a full Shard. But the idea has merit. 

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I also don't think this is talking about Odium. It's possible that Odium's prison is related, but it seems like a stretch for me to think that Gavilar is aware of how Odium was captured. That happened a LONG time ago, and I doubt humans were directly involved.

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17 hours ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

Right, I don't think Gavilar knows about Odium (at least not completely). So I don't believe that Gavilar is making a reference to Odium, but I think Brandon might be giving us a hint. Because spren and the Unmade are just little pieces of Odium and other Shards, so if you can hold one of them in a gemstone why couldn't it work on a larger scale in theory?

And yeah, there is a limit to the amount of investiture that can be held in a gemstone, but Shards are not infinite in investiture (I think). So that's why it would probably take a 'very special' and probably very large gemstone to make it work.

Well yeah, that's why I think it would have been made by Honor and/or Cultivation. Cause, magic :)

@jofwu I already commented on your thought in this quote a couple posts back :) 

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39 minutes ago, jofwu said:

I also don't think this is talking about Odium. It's possible that Odium's prison is related, but it seems like a stretch for me to think that Gavilar is aware of how Odium was captured. That happened a LONG time ago, and I doubt humans were directly involved.

But that's not what OP is saying, silly jofwu :)

17 hours ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

Right, I don't think Gavilar knows about Odium (at least not completely). So I don't believe that Gavilar is making a reference to Odium, but I think Brandon might be giving us a hint. Because spren and the Unmade are just little pieces of Odium and other Shards, so if you can hold one of them in a gemstone why couldn't it work on a larger scale in theory?

 

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Haha, sorry guys. I wasn't critiquing the concept of how Odium was trapped, but the way it began with being connected to Gavilar's comment. I just read the whole thread, but I guess that clarification comment didn't register. :)

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11 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

Is there a significance to the arrow pointing to an island in the stencil of Roshar?

The question asker drew that. You could ask @Sam Script what the arrow means, and if he drew it or if Brandon added it.

There are several inaccuracies; the long island north of Aimia is drawn as attached, the Purelake isn't shaped quite right, there are missing islands northwest of Iri. It's still a pretty good drawing, even if it's not 100% accurate.

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I think we really need to take into account what Aimian said in the latest excerpt.

Quote

 

“After many warnings not to come to this place,” the cook said. “It is rare I must guard it so aggressively. Men must not again discover this place.”

“The gemstones?” Kaza asked, growing more drowsy. “You protect them? Or is it... something else? Something… more.”

“I cannot speak,” the cook said. “Even to sate a dying demand. There are those who can pull secrets from your soul, and the cost would be the ends of worlds. Sleep now soulcaster. This is the most merciful end I can give.”

 

Fact: Aimia was scoured for some reason, probably (but not necessarily) around the time of the Desolations. 

Fact: Aimians can make fabrials that are unique, and fabrials work with trapped spren, or spren put to a single purpose. 

Fact: Something is trapped in Gavilar's black sphere. (spren, mega-spren, demigod, or just some extra Void-Light.... who knows)

Fact: Something has Odium trapped. 

Once you put those facts all in one place, it really sounds like the Aimians have a lot to do with why and how Odium is trapped

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3 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I think we really need to take into account what Aimian said in the latest excerpt.

Fact: Aimia was scoured for some reason, probably (but not necessarily) around the time of the Desolations. 

Fact: Aimians can make fabrials that are unique, and fabrials work with trapped spren, or spren put to a single purpose. 

Fact: Something is trapped in Gavilar's black sphere. (spren, mega-spren, demigod, or just some extra Void-Light.... who knows)

Fact: Something has Odium trapped. 

Once you put those facts all in one place, it really sounds like the Aimians have a lot to do with why and how Odium is trapped

I dig it. I feel like pieces are coming together.

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6 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Fact: Aimia was scoured for some reason, probably (but not necessarily) around the time of the Desolations. 

Axies said the Scouring wasnt long ago

Quote

It hadn’t been that long since the scouring of his homeland. Just long ago enough for stories and legends to have crept into the general knowledge of most peoples.

 

7 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Fact: Something is trapped in Gavilar's black sphere. (spren, mega-spren, demigod, or just some extra Void-Light.... who knows)

It is almost surely an Unmade or at least a Odiumspren trapped in there.

Quote

“The chasmfiends aren’t your gods, are they?” he asked.

“What?” she asked, attuning to skepticism. “Why ask that?”

It was a strange turn in the conversation.

“Oh it’s just something I’ve been thinking about,” he said, taking back the fabrial.

“The others feel so superior because they think they have it figured out,” he chuckled. “They think you’re savages, but I know the truth. You’re not savages. You’re an [enclave?] of memories. A window into the past.”

He leaned forward, ruby light slipping between his fingers.

“I’m going to help you, Eshonai. You should know, I have discovered how to bring back your gods.”

“No,” she hummed to the rhythm of the terrors. “No!”

“My ancestors,” he said, holding up the fabrial, “They’re the ones who first learned how to do this.” Hold a spren inside a gemstone. With a very special gemstone you can even hold a god.”

Quote

"Smokeform for hiding and slipping ’tween men. / A form of power—like Surges of spren. / Do we dare to wear this form again? It spies. / Crafted of gods, this form we fear. / By Unmade touch its curse to bear, / Formed from shadow—and death is near. It lies."

Song of Secrets, 51st stanza

 

14 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Fact: Something has Odium trapped. 

Honor and the Heralds were at least part of why Odium is trapped, and the Aimians were not a part of that portion.

Quote

QUESTION

Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Quote

QUESTION ()

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

 

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1 minute ago, Blightsong said:

 

Honor and the Heralds were at least part of why Odium is trapped, and the Aimians were not a part of that portion.

 

Based on those WoBs we actually cant be sure of that.

The oathpact didnt include Aimians, but since the Oathpact is only "part of" the reason Odium is bound, the Aimians could still be involved somehow.

I personally doubt they were. Binding unmade, sure, Odium, probably not. But the WoBs don't rule it out completely.

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2 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Based on those WoBs we actually cant be sure of that.

The oathpact didnt include Aimians, but since the Oathpact is only "part of" the reason Odium is bound, the Aimians could still be involved somehow.

I personally doubt they were. Binding unmade, sure, Odium, probably not. But the WoBs don't rule it out completely.

Yup, my wording intentionally pointed that out ("that portion").

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5 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Yeah sorry just re-read it, I must have skimmed the first time and thought you were saying they were definitely not involved, my bad.

In my defence it is really late here.

Don't worry about it, i've done the same before :P

Edited by Blightsong
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