Compounding pewter?

[Zmaray]

Pewter is one of the only metals that gives the same attribute for both allomancy and Feruchemy. Does this make compounding pewter more powerful than with other metals as you receive strength from burning pewter as well as burning the strength stored within the pewter?

Also, when compounding steel, how do you decide whether you want speed or the ability to push on metals?

[xxcyv]

As soon as you fill a piece of metal with a feruchemical power its allomantic power gets "overwritten" by it. You could say by filling a metalmind you create a new allomantic metal which gives you the power stored in the metalmind. As a result it is not possible to gain both the allomantic and the feruchemical powers when burning just a single piece of metal. So when you burn a steelmind you only get speed and not the ability to push on metals.

Because of that compounding pewter would not be as overpowered as you might think. You could potentially push your strengh to a point where you could throw a truck without much effort, but you wouldn't get the extra powers of allomantic pewter such as better sense of balance or unlimited endurance.

[The One Who Connects]

As an additional point, Brandon has said that since they both give strength, you could store the strength from A-Pewter in a Metalmind to avoid being debilitated while storing, but at that point you may as well compound.

---

That said, this combo could still be very dangerous. Allomantic Attributes don't function the same way as Feruchemical ones (A-Tin sight isn't a "zoom" like F-Tin sight is), so if you tapped your F-Pewter Metalminds while burning A-Pewter, you could probably reach some pretty dangerous strengths.
Health Note: I believe the limit to F-Pewter is where you grow enough for your skin to snap like Koloss do (since you don't have Gold Healing to save you) so this could be pretty dangerous to try.

[Calderis]

50 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Health Note: I believe the limit to F-Pewter is where you grow enough for your skin to snap like Koloss do (since you don't have Gold Healing to save you) so this could be pretty dangerous to try.

Allomantic Pewter's toughness may make that threshold slightly higher though, so the combination may be more beneficial than it first appears. I wouldn't want to be the one to test it though. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Calderis

[Yata]

Notice the A-pewter is useful for a lot of Twinborn's pairs. The Pewter gives you Better Strenght, resilience, Speed and reflex.

You could store this surplus into pewtermind, goldmind, Steelmind and (probably) zincmind. So a Twinborn of this kinds could store attributes really Faster than normal.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Yata

[CalaCrisp88]

F-tin sight is zoom? I thought it was different. When Sazed and Marsh were together (I think it was conventical of seran or something), Sazed says his tin sight would make it easier to see in very dim light, although couldn't see in there because there was no light at all. It doesn't seem like a zoom would help him see like that. Or did you mean a zoom in addition to that?

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, 8giraffe8 said:

F-tin sight is zoom? I thought it was different. When Sazed and Marsh were together (I think it was conventical of seran or something), Sazed says his tin sight would make it easier to see in very dim light, although couldn't see in there because there was no light at all. It doesn't seem like a zoom would help him see like that. Or did you mean a zoom in addition to that?

Quoth the Coppermind. Italics added

Quote

Tapping sight causes the edge of the Feruchemist's vision to blur, and sacrifices immediate field of vision in favor of a more distant, binocular view. Tapping too much sight can induce nausea. ^[10]

I may have misinterpreted the use of the word binocular in this phrase, but "more distant view" seems pretty solid.

Edited May 30, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Ciridae]

IIRC the binocular view is a result of tapping a bunch of sight at once.

About pewter compounding, what keeps a double pewter twinborn from burning a piece of pewter that's a metalmind as well as regular pewter at the same time? Mistborn can burn several metals at once, I assume a pewter compounder could burn both types of pewter at the same time as well. 

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Ciridae said:

IIRC the binocular view is a result of tapping a bunch of sight at once.

[...] Mistborn can burn several metals at once, I assume a pewter compounder could burn both types of pewter at the same time as well. 

Thanks for the clarification about Tin-Sight.

I mentioned that version of double pewter earlier, but still think you'd hit a hard limit on the Feruchemical side. Calderis made a valid point that A-Pewter could raise that limit, but it only gives you so much.

A Compounder burning both types of Pewter would essentially be the Cave Troll from Fellowship of the Ring, but with normal intelligence.

[+hwiles]

@The One Who Connects Pretty sure I can't outright prove you wrong, but we have some indications that tapping pewter wouldn't be bound by skin-stretchyness IMO: Sazed's skin doesn't hang off him when he stores strength and he grows many times larger while tapping without ripping his skin, or even reporting discomfort.  If there's a limit to how much pewter someone can tap at once I would assume that it would be defined by the simple practicality that they can only be so massive/muscley and still be able to move.  Further, if you tapped way too much pewter, one of two things would probably happen:

1. You would be so massive that your heart would not be able to pump blood through your body against the back pressure resulting from the friction between your blood and the walls of your veins and the constricting force of your muscles, or...
2. Your heart, being similarly pewter enhanced as the rest of your muscles, pumps blood so hard that your blood vessels pop and you explode in a massive gorey mess...

All that said...The feats of strength described in the Logbook actually don't seem possible for even a person as strong and large as physically possible, so it's also possible that, just like how tapping steel for speed gives the user's feet increased friction with the ground (so they don't simply run in place or go sliding around like a drunk maniac), tapping pewter might allow the user to temporarily overcome those troublesome physics that would otherwise interfere with their ability to use their magic effectively.

[The One Who Connects]

@hwiles  I could make the case that the nature of Feruchemy protecting you from the effect of your own power prevents the skin from ripping, and that since it only protects up to a certain extent, you would start to snap once you go any further, but there's no basis either way without further examples of F-Pewter.

Both of your suggestions make sense though, hrmm...  Agree to disagree that our 3 potential scenarios would only happen if someone tapped far more than would be physically practical?

After all, the practical limit doesn't necessarily have to be the same as the hard limit.

[+hwiles]

@The One Who Connects Fair point, I might have been a bit pedantic in trying to establish a hard limit.  As you say, a practical limit should clearly exist and be more important.

Pewter feruchemy makes the muscles larger but does not appear to change the size of one's bones.  You'd probably start encountering serious mobility problems before you got close to dying, which would stop any sane person from tapping more.

[PewterAGoldF]

Since strength from allomantic Pewter doesnt come from muscle size and while storing strength from allomantic pewter doesnt make you skinnier, perhaps compounding that strength, rather than regular feruchemical strength, would let you tap strength without growing in bulk?

I suppose this comes down to whether the nature of the ability is preserved, would a tin compounder be able to burn tin and store sight, then tap that sight and still be able to see through mists like with allomantic tin?

[The One Who Connects]

6 hours ago, PewterAGoldF said:

Since strength from Allomantic Pewter doesn't come from muscle size and while storing strength from Allomantic pewter doesn't make you skinnier, perhaps compounding that strength, rather than regular Feruchemical strength, would let you tap strength without growing in bulk?

Pretty sure the magic system doesn't work that way, as compounding overwrites the Allomantic effect of the metal you burn. You should still grow in size, because that is what F-Pewter does to you. I don't think it makes any distinction between what is used to fuel it

[cseredhide47]

On 5/30/2017 at 8:22 PM, Yata said:

Notice the A-pewter is useful for a lot of Twinborn's pairs. The Pewter gives you Better Strenght, resilience, Speed and reflex.

You could store this surplus into pewtermind, goldmind, Steelmind and (probably) zincmind. So a Twinborn of this kinds could store attributes really Faster than normal.

Hay, I am late to the party but, here is my limited understanding of the subject:

Feruchemy stores your attributes, Allomancy is not yours, you kinda borrow it from preservation. So if you are a twinborn A-pewter and F-gold and store health let say 9 out of your 10 health points, then you burn pewter, and get like 8 more, great, now you feel better, but I don't think that extra health is store able.

Well that's how I see it anyway.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, cseredhide47 said:

Feruchemy stores your attributes,

Once they are granted by Allomancy they are yours. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

source

 

[Yata]

On 11/7/2018 at 11:13 PM, cseredhide47 said:

Hay, I am late to the party but, here is my limited understanding of the subject:

Feruchemy stores your attributes, Allomancy is not yours, you kinda borrow it from preservation. So if you are a twinborn A-pewter and F-gold and store health let say 9 out of your 10 health points, then you burn pewter, and get like 8 more, great, now you feel better, but I don't think that extra health is store able.

Well that's how I see it anyway.

Calderis the wise already replied and yeah the WoB provided already an answer but, regardless of the wob. If magic sustains yourself (in this example Pewter) you have for a limited timeframe a bigger amount of some attributes, the WoB explicity states you could store that too, but anyway also if you can't.....You will be able to store more of your own attributes while the magic sustains yourself in a otherwise bad situation

Edited July 14, 2018 by Yata

[foil4me]

I understand that I am very late to this discussion, Recently discovered my love for the cosmere

Anyways, seems to me like the effects of compounding pewter would be enormous. It is stated in "The Well of Ascension" by Ham that burning pewter enhances ones own strength, and thus if two pewter arms were both flaring their pewter that it would essentially negate the effects of the allomancy. We see in the same book that sazed becomes near the size of one of the larger koloss, and is able to crush skulls and many other bones with shear muscle, I'm sure you all remember that bit quite well, it was fairly gruesome. Now imagine being able to have that strength for nigh unlimited amounts of time, and then enhance that strength with allomantically burning pewter, any health concerns with the level of strength achieved by sazed, witch apear to be none, would be negated by allomancy, and the strength would almost double, you would basically be the hulk 

[Dancer]

Allomantic Pewter strength comes from Preservation's Investiture reinforcing your muscles and bones not from increased muscle mass like F-Pewter. Since it has been stated by WOB that this can be stored in a Pewtermind and then compounded you may get to the point that your body is so reinforced that you become impervious to knives and bullets. 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Dancer said:

Allomantic Pewter strength comes from Preservation's Investiture reinforcing your muscles and bones not from increased muscle mass like F-Pewter. Since it has been stated by WOB that this can be stored in a Pewtermind and then compounded you may get to the point that your body is so reinforced that you become impervious to knives and bullets. 

I still think that line is very much misunderstood. If it were that simple, I don't see why Brandon would bother to say in the WoB that it would be easier to just compound. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

[Dancer]

12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I still think that line is very much misunderstood. If it were that simple, I don't see why Brandon would bother to say in the WoB that it would be easier to just compound. 

 

Less time and effort with normal compounding I guess. You can store F-pewter strength at any time will storing A-Pewter strength requires you to have multiple sources of pewter on you. There might be some loss of Investiture during the transfer from Preservation to you to the metalmind maybe. Either way from what we know of Compounding and the fact that multiple allomantic powers are confirmed to be able to be stored in metalminds I just don't see there being any difficulty in this happening. 

[Calderis]

19 minutes ago, Dancer said:

Less time and effort with normal compounding I guess. You can store F-pewter strength at any time will storing A-Pewter strength requires you to have multiple sources of pewter on you. There might be some loss of Investiture during the transfer from Preservation to you to the metalmind maybe. Either way from what we know of Compounding and the fact that multiple allomantic powers are confirmed to be able to be stored in metalminds I just don't see there being any difficulty in this happening. 

And personally, I think that storing the strength that pewter grants is basically just going to be an enhancement to normal Feruchemy that allows you to store faster, which is way simply compounding is just plain easier. 

Pewter grants far more than just strength. I don't believe for a moment that you can store everything A-pewter grants in F-pewter and then compound that to replace the feruchemical effect. At that point you'd just be multiplying A-pewter. 

A-pewter provides, strength, speed, balance, reaction time, etc, etc. I believe it could enhance the ability to store into multiple feruchemical metals. But if you can compound one of those metals, just do that and you'll get a better result. 

[Tglassy]

I don't believe you'd store all of what Pewter gives you in f-Pewter, just the strength.  

 

But I do believe you can store Strength from A-Pewter into F-Pewter, and thus gain the strength without gaining the mass.  I think it's less strength than just compounding straight from F-Pewter, but if this is the case, you can, with a few more steps, gain an infinite amount of strength without needing to worry about growing bigger.  We're talking Duralamin levels at all times.  

 

Now, it could be argued, I suppose, that storing A-Pewter would only allow you to draw out so much at one time, or that it would take more of it to get to Duralamin level strength, thus making it impractical, and that F-Pewter, which has no upper strength limit other than what your body can deal with musculature-wise, can compound an infinite level of strength while using less of a charge.  

 

However, combining the two creates an interesting result that I hadn't thought of.  Let's say you have a Pewtermind with a near inifinite amount of strength, and so you make yourself like Sazed did during that final battle, making himself the size of a Koloss.  He was incredibly strong, much stronger than the strongest pewter arm you'll ever find. He crushed Koloss like they were made of play doe.

So lets say you make yourself that big, and keep yourself there nearly indefinitely, because you can.  And then you burn regular Allomantic Pewter.  Allomantic Pewter increases your strength by, what, two or three fold? And the stronger you are, the more it gives you.  So you'd literally be two or three times as strong as Sazed was in that scene, while only being as big as him.

 

On a normal day, you could simply up your bulk so you looked like a body builder, and kept your body in that position at all times, never needing to store because of your compounding.  Pop a regular pewter pill and your strength, health and all the rest increase by two or three times, while in your bodybuilder form.  

 

Or make yourself half as strong, and look all scrawny.  Then burn regular pewter when you need to and have normal strength while looking like a weakling.  

 

There are some interesting things you could do with being a pewter twin born.  

[Calderis]

Whereas I think, what normally keeps you from being able to store more, would be countercted by burning A-pewter. 

You try and store strength normally and your going to hit a point that storing further deteriorates your muscles to immobility and/or heart failure. 

Burn pewter while you do this, and suddenly you can effectively store more F-pewter.

I don't think your going to tap pewter and get A-pewter strength period.

[Tglassy]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Whereas I think, what normally keeps you from being able to store more, would be countercted by burning A-pewter. 

You try and store strength normally and your going to hit a point that storing further deteriorates your muscles to immobility and/or heart failure. 

Burn pewter while you do this, and suddenly you can effectively store more F-pewter.

I don't think your going to tap pewter and get A-pewter strength period.

Why?  When you store normal strength, you get smaller, when you tap it, you get bigger, but when you burn Pewter, you don't get bigger, you get denser.  

 

But let's say your right.  Lets say that even if you burn Pewter and then start storing, and you then had to get smaller when storing, you'd be storing effectively double or triple the strength in the same amount of mass, so even if it DID make you bigger, it would make you bigger but with double or triple the strength than normal.

 

Then, while you are bigger, you can burn pewter, making yourself stronger, without making yourself bigger, by two or three times, and then store all that strength, making yourself smaller.  Now, it's been multiplied.  Your previous 2-3 times strength has now been multiplied by 2-3 times, so you now have a pewter mind with strength inside that adds 4-9 times the strength, but with the same amount of size.

 

Now do it again, and you've multiplied your strength by 8-18 times.  And again, and it's multiplied by 16-46 times.  And again.  Until you effectively have an infinite amount of strength, but barely any actual growth, if any.  You could tap just a teeny, teeny portion of the actual size increase, and get more strength than you could possibly handle.  You'd basically be the Juggernaut.  Nothing would be able to stop you once you got moving.  Or even if you weren't moving.  You'd rip through metal like tissue.  And this isn't even with Traditional Compounding.  This is just by storing Allomantic pewter strength, which converts it to Feruchemical pewter strength, and then burning Allomantic pewter while tapping Feruchemical pewter.   

 

And the cool thing is, even if you did that, you could still control how strong you were, so you can be gentle when you need to, and unstoppable when you aren't.

 

At least, that's how I see it working.  When Brandon gave his answer about storing Allomantic pewter into a Pewtermind, he gave it rather flippantly.  "Sure, it'd probably be easier just to compound, though."  I don't think he actually gave any thought to how this would work.  In his mind, Compounding is just faster.  And while yes, he's "God" in his world, and his word is law, there have been times when he has mentioned he gave an answer too quickly, and had to go back and correct himself.  

 

In this case, I think that just burning Pewter and storing the strength, then burn pewter while tapping, rinse/repeat, would do much the same, and with less upsizing.  

 

Perhaps you can even add in Compounding.  Store strength, swallow it, burn it, increasing your strength, then burn regular Pewter at the same time.  Whatever you got from the Feruchemical pewter you are burning would be doubled or tripled.  It's compounded Compounding.