Shardblade Oath

[Watchcry]

I originally thought a Radiant gained their shardblade upon speaking the third Oath, but after reading Edgedancer again I noticed Wyndle transformed into a shardbar before Lift said her third Oath. What is the standard? Or is there one?

[Calderis]

I think the standard is roughly the third, but I don't think it's that simple. The ability for the Spren to manifest physically isn't purely tied to the Oaths, but to the strength of the bond between the Radiant and their Spren. 

So lets use Edgedancer as an example. Lift needs to reach roughly the third oath for Wyndel to manifest as a blade. Early in the book, Wyndel is dropping big hints that she needs to progress so she can do this. So he obviously isn't able to at that point.

Then look at the Oath itself. "I will listen to those who have been ignored." she spends the whole book doing this. So she may not have actually spoken the third Oath, but she's clearly working her way towards it, and by the climax has already progressed enough that Wyndel can manifest. All she really had left to do was speak the oath and set it in stone. 

As an aside to this, I also think this is why Lifts Spoken Oaths have been less visually Dynamic than Kaladin's. Where Lift is constantly progressing, Kaladin is constantly warring with himself and comes to his Oaths at a major point of decision, overcoming his own inner turmoil that kept the bond from progressing. The glyphs and visuals with Kaladin are a direct result of him taking a Leap forward with his Bond. Whereas Lift has been walking at a steady pace while trying to deny she's changing. Her Oaths are spoken at points that she already progressed far enough to say them, but has basically held herself back from fear of change, and so the words are only really a formality, denying us the impressive light show. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Calderis

[Watchcry]

You bring up a good point. Lift has been ignoring Wyndle throughout their entire relationship. Perhaps she'll listen to him more intently? 

As to the post, I think you're on the right track. 

[Yata]

We could also add that Lift is a bit Special. Her Bond with wyndle is more deep than the Oaths suggests (for her boon from the Old Magic).

So for her maybe saying an Oath is strictly less important than feeling it

Edited May 29, 2017 by Yata

[+Extesian]

@Calderis is the bit about Kaladin's spectacular arrivals at the Oaths based on a WoB, previous Shard discussion or just your head-canon? I've always wondered about that and there's a WoB saying there's a good reason, but I'd never heard that point. It's an excellent one and tied in with the Lift comparison very well. 

[Steeldancer]

6 hours ago, Extesian said:

@Calderis is the bit about Kaladin's spectacular arrivals at the Oaths based on a WoB, previous Shard discussion or just your head-canon? I've always wondered about that and there's a WoB saying there's a good reason, but I'd never heard that point. It's an excellent one and tied in with the Lift comparison very well. 

I agree! It appears to make sense. Can we compare that with our other characters? To see if maybe they didn't make a giant decision, and so no large light show? 

[The One Who Connects]

11 hours ago, ANRILU said:

What is the standard? Or is there one?

Generally Third Oath, but not always.

Quote

Question

Ok. Do you have to have done the third oath before you can convert your spren into a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, in most orders, yes.

Question

What about Shallan then? Did she do it, cause she was a kid when she first-

Brandon Sanderson

Um… You will find out more.

 

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, Extesian said:

@Calderis is the bit about Kaladin's spectacular arrivals at the Oaths based on a WoB, previous Shard discussion or just your head-canon? I've always wondered about that and there's a WoB saying there's a good reason, but I'd never heard that point. It's an excellent one and tied in with the Lift comparison very well. 

Just my head Canon. I'm sure that's pretty heavily influenced by having lurked here for a couple years before being active. Like with most of my thought processes though, it just feels right. (like how on your Awakening post I had to take an hour to actually formulate why I felt the way I did about the fifth heightening.) 

6 minutes ago, The Flash said:

I agree! It appears to make sense. Can we compare that with our other characters? To see if maybe they didn't make a giant decision, and so no large light show? 

Well, the only other character that we've seen the actual advancement part is Shallan. The nature of Lightweaver "Truths"/self awareness kind of forces them into the less dynamic category. I mean, to reveal/face a truth about yourself kind of creates a situation where you have to come to terms with things before you can actually say it.

Add in the part where Shallan is rebuilding her bond after it faded and I think the most we get to see with her is due to Patterns involvement.  which was basically "I understand why you lie to yourself, but you're as ready as you're going to get. This needs to happen." and we get the fancy room recreation and Shallan crying.

 

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Calderis said:

Just my head Canon. I'm sure that's pretty heavily influenced by having lurked here for a couple years before being active. Like with most of my thought processes though, it just feels right. (like how on your Awakening post I had to take an hour to actually formulate why I felt the way I did about the fifth heightening.) 

Well, the only other character that we've seen the actual advancement part is Shallan. The nature of Lightweaver "Truths"/self awareness kind of forces them into the less dynamic category. I mean, to reveal/face a truth about yourself kind of creates a situation where you have to come to terms with things before you can actually say it.

Add in the part where Shallan is rebuilding her bond after it faded and I think the most we get to see with her is due to Patterns involvement.  which was basically "I understand why you lie to yourself, but you're as ready as you're going to get. This needs to happen." and we get the fancy room recreation and Shallan crying.

 

Well then, I'll use this as head canon, and wait for oathbringer when I'm sure someone will swear another oath. And if it is a dramatic decision, then if we get another light show, the theory is proved!

[Fulminato]

18 hours ago, Calderis said:

Just my head Canon. I'm sure that's pretty heavily influenced by having lurked here for a couple years before being active. Like with most of my thought processes though, it just feels right. (like how on your Awakening post I had to take an hour to actually formulate why I felt the way I did about the fifth heightening.) 

Well, the only other character that we've seen the actual advancement part is Shallan. The nature of Lightweaver "Truths"/self awareness kind of forces them into the less dynamic category. I mean, to reveal/face a truth about yourself kind of creates a situation where you have to come to terms with things before you can actually say it.

Add in the part where Shallan is rebuilding her bond after it faded and I think the most we get to see with her is due to Patterns involvement.  which was basically "I understand why you lie to yourself, but you're as ready as you're going to get. This needs to happen." and we get the fancy room recreation and Shallan crying.

 

shallan speak the first ideal very early. someone instruct her, and shallan manifest surgebinding ability very early on. (five/six year old), I don't think she can have used this power let alone, whitout anyone can guide her.and a last question. how shallan mother know surgebinder/radiant? ("Her mother’s shouts, arguing with her father. Mother calling Shallan one of them.")

[Exalted]

I recall reading somewhere that Kaladin's "power explosions" were related to his Adhesion surge somehow, but I can't find any WOBs on the subject other than the one that says "you'll find out eventually", so maybe I'm just misremembering.

[Megasif]

I can't seem to find it atm but in one WoB it was mentioned that its not the exact words themselves but more of the feelings associated wit the words.

It was in relation to Dalinar speaking the second oath which was shown in two parts and there was discussion going on about whether it was just the second oath or the third. I just can't seem to remember where I've seen it. So in the discussion someone gave source which asked asked Mr.Brandon about Dalinars oath and that was his reply. That it's the feelings associated with the words. 

That's why towards the end of WoR, Kaladin protects Elhokar but right until the end doesn't know why he's taking the certain actions. Then it all clicks and he realizes what he's been doing. Protecting. Even when he doesn't like them. Hence the oath 'I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right'.

That's also the case with lift I think. She has fully accepted the second oath before she speaks it.

In another WoB, it was mentioned that the burst of light in kaladins Oath does not necessarily happen with everyone and that we will find out the reason.

If someone knows of the source(which i cannot remember) it would be appreciated. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Megasif

[Calderis]

@Megasif I can't find it either, but (I think) I know the WoB you're talking about, and I didn't take it the same way at all. 

What I remember is that the words spoken aren't as important as the feeling and meaning behind them, so you can have to members of the same order speak the same oath, but the words will be different. The essence of what that oath means, and the feelings associated with it, will be the same though.

[+Extesian]

Here, and a bonus one

Quote

TGANCHERO

No specific question.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not completely sure on this one: He said that at one point Shallan may have said all the oaths for her order (or may have been capable of saying all of the oaths by the end of the book) but has since regressed due to "memory loss/repression." Regarding Dalinar: He said that Dalinar has had a bond with the Stormfather "for a while." He also only said one oath at the top of the Urithiru tower, not two. Dalinar conveyed a single idea in that particular oath. Brandon also clarified that the oaths, with the exception of the first ideal, are not restricted to specific words. Rather, a specific idea must be conveyed for the oath to be accepted.

Quote

Q: The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.
A: That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.
Q: Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?
A: Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

 

[Megasif]

On 6/27/2017 at 10:26 PM, Calderis said:

@Megasif I can't find it either, but (I think) I know the WoB you're talking about, and I didn't take it the same way at all. 

What I remember is that the words spoken aren't as important as the feeling and meaning behind them, so you can have to members of the same order speak the same oath, but the words will be different. The essence of what that oath means, and the feelings associated with it, will be the same though.

@Calderis I actually completely agree with you. I was just explaining my understanding of reaching/speaking an oath in answer to @anrilu With Kaladin, Syl didn't transform until he actually said the words themselves. The third oath. Only after he said the words did syl turn into a sharblade.

 

On 5/29/2017 at 11:38 PM, The One Who Connects said:

On 2017-5-29 at 11:45 AM, ANRILU said:

What is the standard? Or is there one?

Generally Third Oath, but not always.

  Quote

Question

Ok. Do you have to have done the third oath before you can convert your spren into a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, in most orders, yes.

Question

What about Shallan then? Did she do it, cause she was a kid when she first-

Brandon Sanderson

Um… You will find out more.

As we know from WoB, most orders have to reach the third Oath before the spren transforms.

With Lift, wyndle transformed before she actually speaks the third oath. But we know that wyndle kept saying she has to say the words. I think this seemed to have confused @ANRILU As it confused me at first. Then I saw to the WoB that you just explained and came to this conclusion. You don't have to actually say the words first, as long as you have reached the feelings and meaning behind them i.e accept/say them in your heart.

“Say the Words,” Wyndle said from beside her. “I’ve said them, in my heart.” But what good would they do?

So at this point she has accepted the Oath, in my opinion. Then wyndle trasforms when Lift needs him. Then the words are said as well to set it in stone, like you mentioned above.

This is just to clarify my last post. I don't think i explained what I was trying to say clearly.

 

@Extesian

Spoiler

Q: The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.
A: That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.
Q: Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?
A: Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Oh nice info. I still haven't completely grasped this concept yet.  

Edited June 28, 2017 by Megasif

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, Megasif said:

As we know from WoB, most orders have to reach the third Oath before the spren transforms. The only ones we know of that don't, so far, are the lightweavers. 

Exercise caution when referring to things that have "you'll find out later" as their answer. We know that Shallan may have reached that high point before and regressed.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

He said that at one point Shallan may have said all the oaths for her order (or may have been capable of saying all of the oaths by the end of the book) but has since regressed due to "memory loss/repression."

Due to this, we cannot actually say for sure if Lightweavers are a exception to the "3rd Oath Blade" Rule.

[Megasif]

7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Exercise caution when referring to things that have "you'll find out later" as their answer. We know that Shallan may have reached that high point before and regressed.

Due to this, we cannot actually say for sure if Lightweavers are a exception to the "3rd Oath Blade" Rule.

Ah right. I shouldn't have said it like it is a confirmed fact. It is another theory. I will edit that out.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Megasif

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Exercise caution when referring to things that have "you'll find out later" as their answer. We know that Shallan may have reached that high point before and regressed.

Due to this, we cannot actually say for sure if Lightweavers are a exception to the "3rd Oath Blade" Rule.

There's also another that says the end of WoR puts Shallan at an Oath ahead of Kaladin. So the truth at the end of WoK would have counted as her third, meaning we never saw Pattern pre third Oath. 

[Bort]

On 6/28/2017 at 11:07 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Exercise caution when referring to things that have "you'll find out later" as their answer. We know that Shallan may have reached that high point before and regressed.

Due to this, we cannot actually say for sure if Lightweavers are a exception to the "3rd Oath Blade" Rule.

The Lightbringers speak no oaths beyond the first. I believe it is Pattern that says this. Instead, they need to face their Truths. So, Shallan's 'second oath' was facing the truth about her father's death, and her 'third oath' is facing up to the truth behind her mother's death.

It makes you wonder though, what lies was Pattern attracted to, if he was there for her mother's death?

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Bort said:

The Lightbringers speak no oaths beyond the first. I believe it is Pattern that says this. Instead, they need to face their Truths. So, Shallan's 'second oath' was facing the truth about her father's death, and her 'third oath' is facing up to the truth behind her mother's death.

It makes you wonder though, what lies was Pattern attracted to, if he was there for her mother's death?

But we know per WoB that at end of WoR Shallan is one "level" above Kaladin. 

The one who connects is correct. We've never seen her with a blade below "level" 3, and it's possible that with her bond having degraded, Pattern would never have lost that ability anyway. 

Until we see a new Lightweaver progress, we can't assume anything. 

[Bort]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

But we know per WoB that at end of WoR Shallan is one "level" above Kaladin. 

The one who connects is correct. We've never seen her with a blade below "level" 3, and it's possible that with her bond having degraded, Pattern would never have lost that ability anyway. 

Until we see a new Lightweaver progress, we can't assume anything. 

Ok, so her father's death was her 'third truth', and her mother's death was her 'fourth truth'. Yet Pattern was there when Shallan killed her mother (at the age of 11, according to the Coppermind), as a Shardblade, which means that Shallan must have spoken the first oath, and two major, major truths to progress to a "level 3" Lightweaver.

How do you gain such deep truths, to be able to come out with multiple of them, before the age of 11? What happened in Shallan's very early life which attracted Pattern (the 'lies')?

[Calderis]

@Bort it's been a discussion for a while, and I've said that I think her idea that life prior to her mother's death as sunshine and roses is a complete fabrication. 

Her mother was willing to kill her. All of her brothers are broken in some way. I think that in before her father grew more violent, her life at the beginning of her flashback chapters was possibly an improvement over life with mommy. 

She had to have had the lies to attract Pattern in the first place.