Types of Awakened Objects

[Djarskublar]

I mentioned this idea in a series of looong posts about Nightblood a few months ago, but it didn't generate any conversation at the time (unsurprisingly, it would have been quite a tangent). I happened to re-read the thread, and decided to expand my thoughts a little bit. Basically, I want to revise the categories of BioChroma.

First, I would like to demonstrate that there is a fair chance that there is something inherently special about divine breaths. It's quite simple, really. Children of Returned can have strange abilities like the Royal Locks. Normal people who reach the middle Heightenings don't have children like that. I don't think this is conclusive, since there could be something special about a cognitive shadow having children. That said, I think it is still likely that there is something special about divine breath. It could be a combination effect of the two as well.

To actually talk about the categories, I think there are only 3 known types of BioChromatic magic. The creation of Lifeless, awakened objects, and on-self stuff like memory manipulation. The first, lifeless, include normal lifeless that we already know, and Returned. Returned are special case lifeless that have a lot more power going into them, and have the original person reattached. The possible extra stuff with divine breath may contribute as well. Endowment herself gives them the Command and awakens them. The Command she uses is amorphous enough to generally allow them normal free will, while still helping trigger them into fulfilling the purpose they Returned for.

The second type includes all awakened inanimate objects. This category includes things that are awakened to full sentience like Nightblood. Awakening him was essentially a normal awakening, just with a much more powerful Command, a more effectively delivered Command, and a lot more breath. The only concrete difference between Nightblood and a standard awakened object is the level of Investiture dumped into him. Now, there is one caveat to that: Nightblood is an extra special case since he is more Invested than a mere 1000 breaths would imply. We don't know where that extra power came from, but it might change him enough that we can't even fully classify him as an awakened object any more. He might be something beyond classification, truly unique. I don't think that would necessarily change anything with my classifications, though.

The third known type is the self-targeted stuff. Since we know essentially nothing about it other than that it exists, I won't comment on it too much, other than to say that it may not necessarily be restricted to on-self casting. I would also like to note that this may be how Vasher manipulates his form. I have always thought it strange that the Returned can just mentally change their form. It should require a spiritual component as well, and this kind of magic could potentially provide it. The 'run-of-the-mill' Returned in the Court of the Gods could be using this instinctively to some extent, allowing them to change over time.

As one final note, these are only the types we know about. There may be more kinds of things that BioChroma can do besides these things. Like maybe shooting breaths at your enemies Aon Daa style. That particular example doesn't sound likely at all for multiple reasons, but it was the first thing I could think of. I could probably spit-ball a few more possibilities, but they would likely be even worse examples.

[Calderis]

I feel like there's a lot I want to say, but at the same time I feel like my understanding of Awakening is far less extensive than the Metallic Arts or Surgebinding.

I'm not sure that Returned can truly be classified in the same way as lifeless. The use of a Divine Breath, and Endowments direct involvement seem like it may simply be the same thing, amplified by the power of a Shard. At the same time, lifeless are essentially flesh golem created using something that was the physical aspect of a once living thing. The integration of the Cognitive and Spiritual aspects seems to be more a signature of Endowments involvement in Nalthis than a direct result of Awakening. Perhaps this is just semantics and it really is the same system, but it feels like an action requiring direct Shardic involvement is separate from the system as only the systems source can produce it. 

On all other points I agree.

[Djarskublar]

While I agree that Vasher's description of how BioChroma works is accurate, there is clearly stuff missing. Even leaving aside his glossing over type IV entities, he didn't even mention self modifying Commands. Adding in those immediately messes up the nice symmetry of his description. I took the square of 4 types at face value for a long time, but Brandon's comments on Mistborn made me question that presentation fundamentally.

In the Mistborn series, one of the defining features is that they are always finding out more about the magic. They don't know even close to everything, even now. We know more about it than anyone in universe, and we are chomping at the bit for more info.

I can't accept his description and classification when he is deliberately leaving out at least 2/5 of the things he knows he can do. This on top of the fact that the Scholars didn't really learn all that much about BioChroma in the couple decades they were researching anyway. Vasher is the leading authority on BioChroma, and he only knows a small fraction of the possible Commands. They were looking for gimmicks they could use for warfare. They just approached it scientifically.

If we pretend that Warbreaker is really Mistborn: TFE, then it puts it into perspective how little we probably know about BioChroma. I mean, in TFE they were wigging out over finding out there are more than 10 metals. Allomancy had mistborn available to test for new metals for a thousand years, and they never found out. Even with TLR suppressing research like that, they did lots of stuff behind his back. Why not experiment? Then look back at Nalthis. BioChroma has only been studied for the last 300 years or so, and only the first 20ish had any real progress, what with military interests funding the Scholars' research. (That is how long the Manywar lasted, right?) I think it's safe to say that not even Vasher knows much more than the tip of the iceberg when it comes to BioChroma. As an amusing aside, that 20 years includes vacations to other planets. Run of the mill honeymoon for Vasher/Shashara. They went somewhere nice and rocky, with plenty of rain.

Basically, I think Vasher is either wrong or lying with that description, and I'm presenting an alternate that I think fits what we know. Even though Brandon said his description is dead on, we know it isn't really, since it leaves out self-targeting Commands. So I can only assume that he is generally right, but some of the specifics are wrong.

For example, based on my understanding of Realmatics, I think he is wrong about why breath sticks to lifeless. He says it is because it's really close to life and that animal bodies are sticky, but if I cut a branch off a tree and awakened it the moment it was officially dead, I would expect it to be a normal puppet, not a lifeless. If I cut off your arm and awakened it, I wouldn't expect a lifeless either. The difference between lifeless/Nightblood and a straw doll is how you picture it working. The first two are given a measure of free will to interpret their Command and orders. That is what makes them useful. Normal awakenings are just making a puppet that is an extension of your will, your very self. The breath in the object is still keyed to your Identity. A lifeless is basically a new person. A slave, yes, but they do have varying levels of free will. Clod is an excellent example of that. Because they are a new person, they get their own separate Identity and the Breath they have is theirs, not yours. You can't recall it in that case. Vasher can't recall the breath from NB for the same reason. NB is his own person now. (Well, that is assuming it was Vahser that awakened him. I don't remember if it was him or Shashara, but I don't think she could have recalled the breath either. Considering how NB turned out, I would have tried again in her position if I could.)

[The One Who Connects]

@Djarskublar (OP Post)

You put Returned and Lifeless (Type's I and II, respectively) under the same banner of the "awakening a dead host" power. I can accept that logic, but it leads to the implication that, as the same power, the same person should be able to do both. This is what I believe Calderis's response is saying by the way. (Until we know what making Lifeless with your own Divine Breath actually does, I can't argue further)

You essentially pull the same thing with Type's III and IV as "awakened objects." Given that Vasher has done both, it bypasses the implication issue I brought up in point 1. No argument here.

Regarding Self-Modifying Commands, I think they are limited to self only. Vasher knows they exist, but he still has to have the little girl say the words herself and mean them. I feel like unless he only learned he could do them recently, he would have tested if he could do them to other people. (Granted, he may be on his 47th how not to make a light-bulb moment)

Last type I could make a case for adding is giving breath to an object. You don't give it a command to do anything, so it just stores it. We know from WoB that you could put breath in an object in a way that someone else can retrieve it, so it might count as a type of fancy stuff.

@FiveLate We technically have more than one example of Returned having children. One, or more, of the God Kings are actually the child of the prior one. Vo may be the only example of a Returned having a non-returned child, but he is not the only one to have a child.

@Djar (2nd Post)

His leaving out of Type IV entities in his description has to do with the reason he killed Shashara: He doesn't want more Nightbloods to happen. The reason he left our self-target commands is most likely because they aren't creating an actual entity, but a modification to an existing one. There isn't much else to argue about in your post, so this is where I get off the train.

[Crucible of Shards]

2 hours ago, FiveLate said:

I will have to go reread that....I was pretty sure that the priest would "discover" a returned child somewhere, and then fake the pregnancy and birth.

IIRC, their plan was have the God king get his wife pregnant unless they happened to find a newly returned infant before that happened, which they would then take as a sign from the Iridescent Tones that it was the right time for a new God king. I believe it is well explained in the annotations.

[Djarskublar]

A last few notes unless someone else makes a major reply. First, @Calderis, I don't think that the idea that Endowment is directly creating lifeless in the form of Returned requires that it be something completely separate. Direct power by a Shard appears to work best when it is fueling their existing system. The mists are best at fueling Allomancy. The Heralds had a direct line to Honor's power for Surgebinding. Endowment should be able to perform very powerful and interesting awakenings, especially considering the intent. It isn't an intent that condones taking power from her. I think it fitting that she can grant renewed life to someone, and then other people have to keep granting them new life every week. I would guess that if it was just a regular lifeless awakened with a divine breath, they might be fully sentient (might), but it wouldn't require breath every week. That is probably the price to keep the cognitive shadow attached to the body. That makes reviving people with Hemalurgy sound a bit more palatable than sucking souls every week.

@FiveLate I forgot to mention this in both the OP, and in my first reply, but I meant to say that Returned can have children with special abilities, and that we don't have any evidence that normal people, regardless of Investment, can. I won't go so far as to say that it's a guarantee.

And yes, the plan was to get them to have a kid, or if that didn't work, then take the first Returned baby they happen to find. At least, that's what I remember, in support of what Crucible said.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

Direct power by a Shard appears to work best when it is fueling their existing system. The mists are best at fueling Allomancy. The Heralds had a direct line to Honor's power for Surgebinding. Endowment should be able to perform very powerful and interesting awakenings, especially considering the intent.

In both of your examples the direct investiture fuels the system but doesn't change it. The mists can take the place of any metal. The Honorblades granted limitless surgebinding. The effects fueled the system but didn't change it. 

My issue with Divine Breath in this context is they function differently than Breath. Without a way to get them separate from Endowments direct involvement, they feel like something separate from the system. We already know that Shards are not limited by their magic system, only their intent. It makes sense to me with Endowments intent, that rather than creating splinters of pure investiture, she is imparting a splinter to an individual, and that is something different than Awakening in itself. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Calderis

[Djarskublar]

Divine breaths function better than normal breaths, just like the mists. Perhaps it would be better to compare divine breath with Lerasium. It does something within the same system, yet wholly different. I can see how it would be difficult to see the association between Returned and lifeless, since there are several aspects that are different with them, but I think they are still working on the same base mechanic and can be put into the same category.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

It makes sense to me with Endowments intent, that rather than creating splinters of pure investiture, she is imparting a Sliver to an individual, and that is something different than Awakening I'm itself. 

?... Normal breaths and divine breaths are both splinters, just with different magnitudes. Divine breaths may have additional properties that we are not fully aware of, but they are still essentially the same thing, just bigger. Slivers are people who have touched the power of a Shard enough (Ascended) to not be forced Beyond when they die. That is something different from a splinter.

When someone is born, she imparts them with a breath, and I wouldn't call that awakening. When someone Returns, she gives them something altogether different, and I would call that awakening. It isn't birth, it's rebirth, and inherently different.

[Calderis]

26 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Slivers are people who have touched the power of a Shard enough (Ascended) to not be forced Beyond when they die. That is something different from a splinter.

I realized my mistake and edited it just before you posted. Definitely different.

26 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

?... Normal breaths and divine breaths are both splinters, just with different magnitudes. Divine breaths may have additional properties that we are not fully aware of, but they are still essentially the same thing, just bigger.

I guess this is where I have to agree to disagree. I see Breath as the analog of Stormlight in this system. It's a product of the system into which all Nalthians are born, and produced at a much slower rate then Stormlight because of this, but it is the fuel of the system.

I see Divine Breath as akin to Spren in the Nalthis/Endowment system. Rather than allowing excess investiture to build up and gain it's own sentience, Endowment consciously chooses to bestow a splinter to an individual. No need for an automatic bleed off of splinters as a product of investing in the system when it's been taken care of manually. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Calderis

[+Extesian]

@Djarskublar I like the OP and I like the things you've added since. I've unfortunately been working on my own ideas of the realmatics and my head's all in that so it's taking me time to go through this thread in detail coz I also like and agree with a number of things others have added. (And I am sorry about having put up my own thread after you did this one).

I basically theorized that Awakening is about creating or altering a spiritweb, with the Command being like a program (or like an Aon that represents a line of programming); and that Heightenings are the result of being more closely connected to your spiritual self. With that model I agree with a number of things you covered, especially about some of the fundamentals. I'll try to get back to this and give some more useful input, but there's some good stuff there.