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Savant Spectrum


Stark

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I apologize if this if this topic has already been discussed, but nothing came up in the search that quite matched this thought.  Savants and Savantism have become a bit of a hot topic lately, as there has been much discussion about them, more so now after the Ad Astra reading.  While occurrences of Savantism are quite rare in the Cosmere, we do get a skewed view on them, as we are more likely to see them around the big events that tend to be central to Cosmere stories.  As a result, I wanted to take a look at our known Savants in the Cosmere, and get the thoughts of the minds on here, with a bit more of a focus on the Savants who have viewpoints.  The focus is only because we get to see the side effects of Savantism more if we can be in the character's head.

 

The reason for this is that I believe that Savantism is not a single state, but a spectrum, where the effects become more pronounced the longer and more deeply the user succumbs to the Savantism.  Similar to drug use, I suppose.  You can have drug users that are purely recreational.  Then you have the habitual users, who would be analogous to Savants.  They range from minor addiction to constant use.  And the effects of addiction/constant use become more pronounced with time.

 

So here is my list of known/suspected Savants that we have encountered:

The Lord Ruler - After a thousand years, he was pretty much a Savant for everything.  We do not have any perspectives from his point of view, so he won't be mentioned much more. Savant for Centuries.

Jedal "Lestibournes" "Spook"  - Was temporarily a tin Savant before Harmony cured him and made him a full Mistborn.  Had reached a state of constant tin use, was starting to see major physical symptoms in his senses, after about a year of Savantism.  Unknown if continued constant use would have led to CR bleed through, would be interesting to explore with the enhanced senses.  Savant for approximately a year.

Kaza, the Soulcaster - She has the most significant symptoms we have had the opportunity to witness.  Much of it may be due to (Spoiler below).  Physical manifestations as her body is transforming, mental changes as she is unable to relate to the mental/emotional state of people around her.  Losing her tether to her mortal form.  Some signs of CR bleed through.  Savant for at least 30-40 years (estimated).

Spoiler

The unbonded Spren trapped in the Gems of her caster.  Cannot confirm that there is a Spren trapped in the gems, but additional information seen in some of the Rosharan script implies heavily that this would be the case.

Vasher, the Scholar - I'm hesitant to include him on this list.  But after so many years as a Returned Awakener, and having held God King level Breaths at least once, I feel safe listing him as a Savant for awakening.  Especially given how easily he awakened in the scenes we saw for him.  He experimented with Breath, and created new commands, and lives off of Investiture.  And he has been using Stormlight for some time now.  Cannot think of any evidence of symptoms of his Savantism, other than the facility with Awakening.  But that could be argued to be a result of his research.  At the same time, it was implied that he was awakening more easily than he should have been at his Breath levels.  His ability to Command was extrememly impressive.  He did have some interesting personality quirks and asocial tendencies, especially when compared to Denth who was not as much of an Awakener that we know of.  But we cannot confirm if this was just his personality, or a mental symptom of his Savantism.  We do not have an exact age for him, but I would hazard Savant(?) for at least three centuries.

Miles Dagouter - Gold Savant, probably.  We do not have much from Miles Hundredlives perspective.  What we did see was that he had lost the ability to feel or be affected by pain.  We also saw that he was frequently experiencing life as both his current outlaw self and his former lawman self simultaneously - along with intense self-loathing as both of them hate each other.  While intensely bizarre, that could have led to some interesting mental and CR insights into Savantism if we'd seen more from his perspective.  Sadly, we do not get to see more.  Savant for 20-30years, estimated.

Pre-Inquisitor Marsh - Bronze Savant, probably.  As we know most Seekers become Savants, we can assume that Marsh was likely a savant for most of his adult life.  We don't get to see much of this, except for his training with Vin, and most of that pertains directly to Allomancy.  We don't get to see any real symptoms of Savantism beyond his extreme skill at seeking.  Inquisitor Marsh can't really be discussed, because although he is definitely a Savant in a few areas, the Hemalurgy messes up his Spirit Web so much that the data is kinda corrupted.  Savant for most of his adult, human life.

Edgard "Breeze" Ladrian - Brass Savant.  Other than being insanely good at manipulating and Soothing people, as well as his penchant for vocalizing when focusing, we don't have much.  His Soothing may be compulsive at this point, as we see in the Well of Ascension Seige of Luthadel, but we never get a Breeze perspective. Savant for most of his adult life.

Waxillium "Wax" Ladrain - Steel Savant.  Wax has his steel bubble that affects everything except his stuff.  He is a weird case, as he has no drawbacks.  I know Brandon is not entirely happy with this, and is thinking of how he will address it in the future.  Savantism achieved during his time in the Roughs.

Unfortunately, most of our examples of Savants are from Scadrial, so it is unwise to apply universal statements before we get to see more.  But I get the feeling that a mix of exposure and length of time as a Savant affect the magnitude of the symptoms.  Kaza is probably the best instance of late stage Savantism that we get, as well as Miles.  We do have some examples of early stages of it as well, Spook.

 

I also know I'm doing a crap job of stating a point - this would fail any English class on all conceivable levels.  Not my best writing, by far, a result of trying to write at work, while not focusing entirely on what I'm doing, or having time to review and make sure I'm not repeating myself.

 

The point was, no one seems to express Savantism exactly the same way.  But we do see some physical or mental symptoms in most of them, the magnitude of which seem to be linked to how habitual the individuals listed use their power.  And some of it, Kaza and Miles specifically, may bleed through into the CR a bit.  I would assume Spook would have done the same at some point.

 

Does anyone have other examples of Savants that I missed?  Or contest my presumed Savants.  Or have Cosmere wide Savantism thoughts to add?

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I'm hesitant to include many of the people on this list as savants.

Brandon's motivation for "redifining" savantism which we yet to have clarity on seems to imply savantism requires negative consequences. The only people that I think we can be absolutely sure will still be considered savants after the new definition becomes clear, are Spook, and now two soulcasters.

In addition, I don't know if Awakening can have savants. Savantism happens from the cracks in the soul widening and warping. Breath seems to bypass the need for those cracks...

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I kind of agree with Calderis. Consider that Spook was a savant for only about a year, but we already saw some pretty life-altering side-effects. I'm pretty sure the RPG has Marsh and Breeze as savants, but well, that's the RPG. If they had been savants for their "adult lives" you'd think there would be something much more noticeable. I mean, compare them to Spook and the soulcasters and you can see the discrepancy. 

That said, I think you might be onto something with Vasher...It's brought up rather often in Warbreaker just how much better he is than everyone else. And it's not just his knowledge, it's how much he can do with a simple Command and few breaths. The fact that he can visualize his Commands so well sounds savantish to me. 

Edited by Scriptorian
I have a remarkable ability to read my post ten times before posting still not catch typos.
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13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think we can be absolutely sure will still be considered savants after the new definition becomes clear, are Spook, and now two soulcasters.

You are right, of course, the new definition will change everything.  It could very easily add or remove from this list.  I will add that I'm fairly certain that we have a WOB confirming that TLR has multiple Savant level abilities, which may account for his ability to be a "human" lie detector.  But all others are up in the air pending the new definition or WOB.

 

As for awakening Savants, you may well be right.  I was assuming that any form of investiture could have Savants, though Awakeners would be quite interesting, as they are being endowed with bits of other peoples souls.  With each breath being part of someone else's soul, your own original breath would very quickly get lost in the mass of breaths contained in your body.  Plus the exchange of breath, the real possibility of being an Aawakener without your own original breath, and the quantity you require to achieve the various heightenings and be able to awaken... I'd be willing to bet on that leaving some interesting cracks on the soul...

10 minutes ago, Scriptorian said:

I'm pretty sure the does RPG has Marsh and Breeze as savants

I've never actually read the RPG books, so this is news to me, thanks.  You are right about the discrepancy, but I think that might come down to mental versus physical.  The Soulcaster affects the physical world, and Spook uses one of the physical (albeit internal) metals, so we see some very obvious outside changes. But both Breeze and Marsh use internal metals, so theirs may be more subtle?  I mean, that sounds really weak, especially compared to TLRs numerous abilities.  I'd guess the lie detector ability is a manifestation of his Soother/Rioter Savantism, but he was a Savant far longer than the others, if he is still a cannon Savant...  

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Well, I just went through my copies of the Mistborn RPG (including Alloy of Law era) and the only people it has as savants are Spook and Breeze. It does only have Marsh post-spikes, so that could be messing things up. He does has a bronze rating of 11. Wow. For reference, the normal maximum without Hemalurgy is 10, and Vin's highest rating is 8. Miles does have 10's in both Allomantic gold and Feruchemical gold, just no savantism. Zane also has a 10 in steel, but again, Hemalurgy, and he wasn't really a candidate anyway. There's no stats for the Lord Ruler, you could probably just put "players lose" and move on. Wax is also not a savant, but the stuff in here is a couple books out of date anyway. Spook and Breeze, the two savants, both have ratings of 8. Just thought I'd put this up for reference. 

Interesting thought about Physical versus Mental. I don't know if it entirely explains the discrepancies, but it is notable.

Edited by Scriptorian
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I wonder if some arcanists might argue that Nalthians are all savants.

I believe it's WoB that Breath makes one more invested than a "normal" person, while a Drab is slightly less invested than a "normal" person. Living with a Breath changes a person in very tangible ways, including physiological changes if I'm not mistaken. Can't you tell a Drab apart from others, if you know what to look for? Remove a Breath from somebody who has always lived with one and they feel very disoriented until they are able to adapt. The Warbreaker notes say that it can indeed be argued that Breath is part of one's Spirit. (as you would expect of course; just emphasizing it's not like a chunk of investiture that you hold off to the side) Surely living with investiture like Breath changes you in fundamental ways such that you could be considered a savant?

A potential redefinition could change all this... There definitely aren't any detrimental side effects of having Breath. But on the topic of redefining savantism...

I think it's much more likely Brandon will turn it into an in-world debate rather than deliver a hard redefinition for fans. He's done this with a few things now, and it works perfectly for savantism. He doesn't have to take back his previous statements about who a savant is. He can just point out that cosmere scholars use the term in different ways and can't agree yet on how to draw the lines. Ultimately, I'd expect a "Savant Spectrum" would rise out of that debate.

A few other related thoughts: I wondered if maybe the number of Breaths could factor in. Meaning one Breath isn't enough to make you a savant, but a thousand would. But Susebron has had a lot of Breath for quite a while, and he doesn't seem to be any different besides his extra abilities. If just having Breath(s) isn't enough to make you a savant, perhaps the use of it in Awakening would. Perhaps taking Breath in and out widens hairline cracks each time. With our without Awakening.

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9 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Nalthians are all savants.

I might disagree with this a bit.  Walking around with 10000 breaths that you aren't using is not much different on an investiture scale (to my mind) than walking around with 10lbs of pewter in your stomach that you aren't burning.  Physically there is a difference, the Breaths give 8th or 9th heightening, and the pewter gives lead poisoning.  But if you are constantly awakening with your Breaths, or constantly burning/flaring the pewter, actively using the investiture, rather than sitting on it, as it were, then we get to Savantism.  I think there needs to be an active component.  In the same vein, I don't see someone who has carried a Soulcaster for 40 years, but never used it, as a Savant, regardless of how much Stormlight they have access to.  From what I understood, becoming a Savant is not a matter of raw power, it is a matter of constant, or near constant, use over extended periods of time.  Which is how TLR became a Savant for everything he had access to.  

 

2 hours ago, Scriptorian said:

He does has a bronze rating of 11

This is cool, and adds some depth to the conversation.  But I had figured someone who has a rating of 1 (assuming the rating indicates power, not skill) could become a Savant with repeated use and a rating 10 could remain 'normal' by rarely using their power.  White Sand prose discussion:

Spoiler

Kenton would be a good example of Sand Mastery Savantism - He practiced so much more than everyone else to control his one ribbon to a far greater degree than anyone else.  His constant practice to keep up with the more powerful Mastrels brought him closer to Sand Mastrel Savantism, if not already into it.

 

This is why I left Susebron off the list.  While he has tons of investiture at the tip of his tongue, he never used it until much later.  Similarly, one could argue that all Inquisitors "see" using Savantism of iron and steel, seeing the metal in everything at trace amounts.  I excluded them because Hemalurgy adds a level of weird to the debate, but I figure there is an argument for their inclusion.

 

What I figured for the Savantism Spectrum would be along the lines of we have a semi-defined point where someone becomes a Savant.  But there are varying degrees of it.  Using Roshar as an example, A Soulcaster (maybe) could be considered a Savant type I when you first start seeing some physical and minor manifestations of their body and mind changing.  Type II would be a more drastic change in mentality, and say 10% of their body converted.  Type III is a massive mental shift, lack of appetite and 30% conversion.

 

Depending on how sever you count the conversion, maybe type III never occurs naturally, as it is fatal, or the person fully shifts to cognitive.  Or something else, depending on the nature of the investiture.  Different investitures could have different rates, like burns, to use a mundane example.

Nalthian investiture could be regarded as Type A, analogous to first degree burns.  You need approximately a 90% burn coverage for first degree burns to be fatal.  Nalthian investiture seems relatively benign (although, admittedly the most invested individuals we encounter already died and came back.  I'm curious what would happen to a normal person who reaches the upper heightenings) So you need much more investiture before you see drawbacks.

Scadrian would be Type B, analogous to second degree burns.  30% is enough to be fatal, though you can survive more.  So the Savantism takes root faster and far more noticeably.

Rosharan Soulcaster Investiture would be Type C, or third degree.  10% can be fatal, though you can in some cases survive more than that.  And here is where we see the most drastic changes.

 

Using that as a Savant Spectrum, you would have type of investiture, and degree to which it has converted your spirit web determining where on the Spectrum of Savant you land.  You could have a Scadrian Savant deeper into the spectrum than a Rosharan, but it would be less noticeable, and rarer.

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@Stark I can get behind that reasoning. I would break it up a little differently though.

As I said I don't think Awakening has Savants. My reasoning here is that most magic systems require cracks in the soul to be usable, but all Nalthians are born with a breath. In addition, a non-native can be given breath, and immediately begin Awakening if they know the proper commands.

The way that breath sticks to people and objects, and the nature of the heightenings, make me think that rather than intruding into cracks in a broken soul, breath reinforces and enhances the true, idealized structure of the soul in the spiritual realm.

The first type of Savantism I see is like what we see with Spook. He didn't become a Savant by merely using his Allomancy, but by almost continuously flaring tin for nearly a year. I think that normal allomantic burn rate is what your spirit web can handle, and doesn't stress the soul, but flaring strains those limitations. Over time that strain warps the existing channels and causes both enhanced ability, and negative side effects like we see in spook. I think this method will cause odd and sometimes drastic physical and mental changes, but other than in extreme examples, even for savants, will not be life threatening. 

Soulcasters though... I think we're going to see the soulcasting via a Nahel Bond doesn't result in the same kind of alterations that fabrial soulcasting does. I think that the fabrials, as an external item to the individual, harnesses the surge of transformation in a way that is inherently more harmful. I think that rather than using a preexisting channel in a person's spirit web, the fabrial basically uses them to provide a conduit to the Spiritual and Cognitive that it lacks as a nonthinking item and in doing so effects the users spiritweb far more drastically. Most fabrials are selfcontained and have some kind of off/on switch. A Soulcaster requires a user to direct it with their intent. 

So to sum up. 

1: I believe Awakening is exempt.

2: I think a person's natural investiture will not result in a Savant unless they are actively pushing themselves beyond their ability (I.E. Spook/flaring, Kaladin going super weak and ashen looking prior to speaking the second ideal) 

3: external devices that channel investiture through a person will result in Savants faster and more dramatically than a natural inborn ability.

I think Hemalurgy is going to mess with those boundaries. 

I also just realized that maybe the Honorblades really are the reason for the Heralds insanity. Maybe being designed by a Shard helps mitigate the damage in this case though. 

Edited by Calderis
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5 hours ago, Stark said:

TLR has multiple Savant level abilities, which may account for his ability to be a "human" lie detector.

Brandon is on record stating that he imagined his lie detector ways to be a byproduct of having interacted with people for so long that he's just memorized all the little tells. Body language experts on earth can accomplish much of that in mere years/decades, and TLR's had centuries. MB1 Annotations

Quote

I figured it would make sense that the Lord Ruler would be so old, so experienced, and so powerful that he wouldn’t be able to be lied to. He’s been around people for centuries and centuries. It’s very hard to fool him.

His extreme power in Allomancy takes a little bit more explaining. It’ll take me three books to get to the real reasons for that one. So, you’ll need to be patient.


2 hours ago, Stark said:

Walking around with 10000 breaths that you aren't using is not much different on an investiture scale (to my mind) than walking around with 10lbs of pewter in your stomach that you aren't burning.  Physically there is a difference, the Breaths give 8th or 9th heightening, and the pewter gives lead poisoning.  But if you are constantly awakening with your Breaths, or constantly burning/flaring the pewter, actively using the investiture, rather than sitting on it, as it were, then we get to Savantism.  I think there needs to be an active component.

As much as I don't like the "Nalthians are all Savants" thing, there is a big difference between the two as you are invested by holding Breath, but you are not invested while not burning Metals. The other difference is that you can only be invested via metals while being active, while holding breath is passive investment, so I agree with it needing an active component.


i am also fairly sure that Brandon has said that Inquisitors almost had to become Savants to be able to see, so I would consider Steelsight as valid.

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I'm in the 'no Awakener savants' camp. Or at least, they are extremely rare if they are possible. You would probably have to reach the agelessness point (5th?) to be able to awaken enough. I think Vasher is just extremely experienced. He can suppress his divine breath, after all. I think that if you have the mental power to do that, you should be fine with complex commands. His intent component is just bigger and better than everybody else we see. I would bet Returned are somewhat immune to the effect. I also think that the breath is somewhat external to the person. It is certainly firmly attached to them, but I don't think it fully suffuses them, so having a lot of them wouldn't affect your web. Plus, as has been mentioned, breath is passive until you use it. If we say savantism is kind of like a short on a circuit, then having lots of breath is like having a large battery that is switched off.

I think Hemalurgic people are by definition somewhere on the savant scale. They had their soul cracked and warped by having the spike rammed into them. That is basically what savantism is.

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Firstly i agree with the idea of a savant spectrum. I don't believe there's a threshold for savantism where before that you're normal and after you're broken. It's a process. 

Secondly, perhaps I've missed something obvious, but I think there's one very important difference with Breath and it has nothing to do with the cracks in your spiritweb which this WoB indicates are universally necessary for magic systems. It's the fact Breath is end-neutral. I don't believe you can become a savant of an end-neutral system. Savantism, in my mind, is continuing use of investiture widening your investiture channels to let more investiture through and your spirit web consequently changes. But surely that is an effect of an end-positive system where you're drawing investiture externally. Breath, like feruchemy, uses your own internal investiture. So i see no reason however much you use it, that it would widen those channels. 

Thirdly I don't believe hemalurgy makes you a savant. It staples on a piece of sDNA to your own sDNA. It doesn't widen the channels, it oopens up new ones. 

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39 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Thirdly I don't believe hemalurgy makes you a savant. It staples on a piece of sDNA to your own sDNA. It doesn't widen the channels, it oopens up new ones. 

Arguably though this is semantics. The way in which hemalurgy breaks and distorts the spiritweb is essentially the same reason that widening the fissures through heavy/extended use warps a Savant. It could be alternately described as either completely separate from Savantism, or imposed Savantism. 

39 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Breath, like feruchemy, uses your own internal investiture. So i see no reason however much you use it, that it would widen those channels. 

I agree it is an end neutral system, but the idea that these can't create Savants seems like it shouldn't work. I've seen the WoB about Feruchemy, and in basic Feruchemy it makes sense. To use any significant level of Feruchemy requires so much time storing that becoming a savant seems practically impossible. For a compounder though? They're using the same investiture source that we know can create Savants, to fuel a system that shouldn't ever have been able to allow that much investiture. Savantism seems like it should be possible in that situation, and I believe Miles inability to feel pain is an argument towards that. 

Breath is also end neutral, but it has no limiting factor in the way that Feruchemy does. Your not limited by your own investiture, as it can be given to you by others.

If breath does require cracks in the soul, and despite that WoB I believe it's an exception, then the heightenings seem like they would be obvious break points that widen the cracks. If this were true though, there should be lasting effects Ala Savantism that linger after the investiture is given up. It also seems possible that reaching that specific heightening again should take less breath. After all, you only need enough breath to fill those cracks, not the pressure required to create them. And shouldn't there be negative aspects of the heightenings in this case? Especially at the higher levels? 

Edited by Calderis
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13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Arguably though this is semantics. The way in which hemalurgy breaks and distorts the spiritweb is essentially the same reason that widening the fissures through heavy/extended use warps a Savant. It could be alternately described as either completely separate from Savantism, or imposed Savantism. 

 

Hmm I'll have to agree to disagree on this, not that I'm right, but that it's just a question of semantics. A ferring has one set of specific 'channels' to use Preservation's investiture in a specific way. The more they use it, the wider that channel gets. I believe hemalurgy, in grafting on a piece of sDNA, is simply adding an additional channel that investiture can flow through, with a different end effect (or 'nozzle' as Brandon has described it), a channel which is of normal width. Using either channel (either metal) will expand that channel, but adding another channel won't expand the first one. My realmatics could be wrong but I do believe it's beyond semantics.

 

Quote

I agree it is an end neutral system, but the idea that these can't create Savants seems like it shouldn't work. I've seen the WoB about Feruchemy, and in basic Feruchemy it makes sense. To use any significant level of Feruchemy requires so much time storing that becoming a savant seems practically impossible. For a compounder though? They're using the same investiture source that we know can create Savants, to fuel a system that shouldn't ever have been able to allow that much investiture. Savantism seems like it should be possible in that situation, and I believe Miles inability to feel pain is an argument towards that. 

Breath is also end neutral, but it has no limiting factor in the way that Feruchemy does. Your not limited by your own investiture, as it can be given to you by others.

If breath does require cracks in the soul, and despite that WoB I believe it's an exception, then the heightenings seem like they would be obvious break points that widen the cracks. If this were true though, there should be lasting effects Ala Savantism that linger after the investiture is given up. It also seems possible that reaching that specific heightening again should take less breath. After all, you only need enough breath to fill those cracks, not the pressure required to create them. And shouldn't there be negative aspects of the heightenings in this case? Especially at the higher levels? 

Sorry I should've clarified the compounding situation. Compounding will clearly cause savantism but that's because compounding is not end-neutral. Feruchemy is, but compounding takes a feruchemical attribute (nozzle) and powers it with end-positive system. I was only saying, for the reason you said, that I dont' believe you can have a ferring savant because you can't flush through enough investiture to meaningfully widen the channels as you have to take time storing it yourself. You can have large investiture transfer for a tiny amount of time, or small for a large amount, but I believe a savant needs both.

You are right about Breath being something you can get from someone else, which changes the equation. But my problem is this. With alomancy, say, you're actually expending all that investiture and returning it to the system. It's kinetic investiture (I believe - I've never been great on that terminology). But with Breath, even if you have 50,000 Breaths, and you make 50,000 lifeless, you're not actually constantly channelling that investiture. You're channeling it once, to make the awakened object, then the investiture is in that object, bringing it to life. There is no constant drawdown of investiture that's constantly flowing through you, expanding your investiture channels. You give the command, send out the Breath, and that's it. You then claim it back, and that's it. So unless you're literally constantly creating awakened objects and reclaiming your Breath, again and again, with the way I picture the realmatics of this, it won't be expanding your investiture channels in the same way alomancy or surgebinding is.

So I could be convinced that it's possible to have savants in a completely end-neutral system, but they're the reasons I don't believe even someone chock full of Breaths becomes a savant. Very effective at the cognitive side of giving Commands, but not in the sense of investiture forcing its way through your spirit-web and changing it.

Edit - to add a couple of things.

Your analysis of the heightenings is good. You may have a point, I've seen the savantism thing as one of kinetic investiture solely, that innate investiture doesn't determine it. Even with my Elantris theory this was the case, that innate investiture gives you the channels but you need huge kinetic investiture to widen them. But the heightenings are an interesting matter and I dont' have a counter-argument for that. I'll have to think on it, it's a good point.

Also, I have an additional argument for why Breath requires cracks. A Nalthian with Breath is more invested than a normal Cosmere human. A Nalthian that has had their Breath taken away, a Drab, is less invested than a normal Cosmere human. So it makes sense to me that Endowment changed people to be slightly less than human, that is the crack, and the Breath they're given at conception fills that.

I have a way to determine that for sure though. Simply ask if a normal Cosmere human, with no innate investiture, is given a Breath, and then has that Breath taken away - would they then be a Drab? If not, then it must be that giving acquiring Breath neither requires nor creates a crack in the spirit web, and you're right that the WoB is wrong. If they would become a Drab, then clearly the act of a Breath imprinting on you creates that needed crack. There may be a flaw in that I haven't thought of, but it's an idea.

Edited by Extesian
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28 minutes ago, Extesian said:

There is no constant drawdown of investiture that's constantly flowing through you, expanding your investiture channels. You give the command, send out the Breath, and that's it. You then claim it back, and that's it. So unless you're literally constantly creating awakened objects and reclaiming your Breath, again and again, with the way I picture the realmatics of this, it won't be expanding your investiture channels in the same way alomancy or surgebinding is

I was going to ask why there's no consideration of Breath's passive gifts and how the constantly inflated soul should have an effect, and then saw your edit, so never mind. 

 

30 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I have a way to determine that for sure though. Simply ask if a normal Cosmere human, with no innate investiture, is given a Breath, and then has that Breath taken away - would they then be a Drab? If not, then it must be that giving acquiring Breath neither requires nor creates a crack in the spirit web, and you're right that the WoB is wrong. If they would become a Drab, then clearly the act of a Breath imprinting on you creates that needed crack. There may be a flaw in that I haven't thought of, but it's an idea.

That's beautifully simple, and I agree. 

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@Extesian I do agree that for an awakener to become a savant, they need to be awakening constantly, and that that is pretty unreasonable to ask of a person. I think it might eventually happen at a low level for someone who reaches agelessness who then awakens frequently for hundreds to thousands of years.

As for things you missed, first, you need to answer the question of whether you could become a feruchemical savant by tapping a large unkeyed store that someone else compounded. Then the power isn't coming straight from Preservation. My guess is that the answer is yes. The question at hand is whether tapping is a power stream capable of causing savantism. I agree that under normal circumstances a ferring would likely never become one, but it should be possible given minor shenanigans.

A few things I think need to be on the record for the Heightenings is that they aren't thresholds, they are upper bounds. Every breath makes you closer to perfect pitch, and after obtaining so many, you have perfect pitch and it can't be improved any more. Also, there are short term effects for gaining/losing large amounts of breath, but those are closer to withdrawal symptoms than savantism.

Hemalurgy isn't so clean as just making a new channel for power. It is twisted and messy, regardless of how surgical you make it. It twists the soul of the recipient, it isn't merely a staple. It is a spike, driven into the cloth of your soul and twisted around so the cloth shifts and twists around it. It damages your soul in fundamental ways that simply removing the spike won't fix. Also, you can spike things out of that aren't powers. That's how koloss and kandra can be made, though you can use power spikes for them. So yes, I would say Hemalurgy definitely causes the requisite damage to be approximately equivalent to a savant.

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48 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

A few things I think need to be on the record for the Heightenings is that they aren't thresholds, they are upper bounds. Every breath makes you closer to perfect pitch, and after obtaining so many, you have perfect pitch and it can't be improved any more. Also, there are short term effects for gaining/losing large amounts of breath, but those are closer to withdrawal symptoms than savantism.

This is exactly why I think Awakening doesn't produce savants. The power of Awakening,beyond the heightening, doesn't directly effect the user (in most cases) it is given to an external object. While the power is within a person it is simply on standby.

Expending Breath has no long term consequences unless you become a drab. Regaining the heightening is no easier, and as you say is not a threshold. 

In order for a system that doesn't inherently widen (or possibly even produce) the cracks in the soul the way other systems obviously do, it seems to me that you would have to use commands that effect yourself, and in that case the Savant symptoms would be different based on the repeated command in question. 

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2 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

@Extesian I do agree that for an awakener to become a savant, they need to be awakening constantly, and that that is pretty unreasonable to ask of a person. I think it might eventually happen at a low level for someone who reaches agelessness who then awakens frequently for hundreds to thousands of years.

As for things you missed, first, you need to answer the question of whether you could become a feruchemical savant by tapping a large unkeyed store that someone else compounded. Then the power isn't coming straight from Preservation. My guess is that the answer is yes. The question at hand is whether tapping is a power stream capable of causing savantism. I agree that under normal circumstances a ferring would likely never become one, but it should be possible given minor shenanigans.

A few things I think need to be on the record for the Heightenings is that they aren't thresholds, they are upper bounds. Every breath makes you closer to perfect pitch, and after obtaining so many, you have perfect pitch and it can't be improved any more. Also, there are short term effects for gaining/losing large amounts of breath, but those are closer to withdrawal symptoms than savantism.

Hemalurgy isn't so clean as just making a new channel for power. It is twisted and messy, regardless of how surgical you make it. It twists the soul of the recipient, it isn't merely a staple. It is a spike, driven into the cloth of your soul and twisted around so the cloth shifts and twists around it. It damages your soul in fundamental ways that simply removing the spike won't fix. Also, you can spike things out of that aren't powers. That's how koloss and kandra can be made, though you can use power spikes for them. So yes, I would say Hemalurgy definitely causes the requisite damage to be approximately equivalent to a savant.

Thanks Djarskublar, you're completely right about unsealed metal minds, I didn't think of that at all. And yep I'm inclined to agree with the implications, that person would probably become a savant. I guess the point is that yeah that's a use of an end-neutral system that would cause it but that person is effectively getting the power from another source. Not in the true sense but that person doesn't have to balance their tapping worth storing. My mistake was saying flat out that you can't do it with an end-neutral system, so I definitely accept that qualification. 

For awakening, I agree with your threshold point and my view is basically what you and Calderis have said. There just isn't sufficient constant flow of investiture unless it's the extreme. 

With hemalurgy I certainly don't question the consequences to the soul and that it could have savantish implications. Just that it doesn't have to necessarily. It's more about new channels than expanding existing or new ones. But of course it could result in a similar effect. 

Above all with this I don't think savant is a near term and isn't a true threshold thing. It's a spectrum and one that is about the overuse of investiture in a way that changes your soul to let you access more, but basically makes your soul kind of dependent on it. That can be done in many ways. But systems that let you directly draw on a large source of investiture at high rates are the most likely to cause a savant. 

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14 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Brandon is on record stating that he imagined his lie detector ways to be a byproduct of having interacted with people for so long that he's just memorized all the little tells. Body language experts on earth can accomplish much of that in mere years/decades, and TLR's had centuries. MB1 Annotations


As much as I don't like the "Nalthians are all Savants" thing, there is a big difference between the two as you are invested by holding Breath, but you are not invested while not burning Metals. The other difference is that you can only be invested via metals while being active, while holding breath is passive investment, so I agree with it needing an active component.


i am also fairly sure that Brandon has said that Inquisitors almost had to become Savants to be able to see, so I would consider Steelsight as valid.

It's almost like the God Emperor of Dune, in knowing human interactions so well he can basically read their minds

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Wow, this is awesome.  I have not started many topics, but this is the first one to take off so much.  Granted, a cynic could point out that I went for the low hanging fruit, talking about Savants right after we got the Ad Astra transcript, or at all really, but still, thanks everyone who is contributing!

 

So Hemalurgy, I don't disagree that they can be savants, especially if they are the enhanced type rather than hemalurgic constructs.  But Hemalurgy is so wierd that I did not want to include it as examples of what I guess you could call natural Savants.  They were made savants by having stolen abilities stapled onto their souls.  They are the Fankenstein's Monster of Savants (excluding Koloss, Kandra and Bleeders things which we could consider as constructs, not exactly enhanced.  Though one could argue that TenSoon is approaching savant-hood of form shifting I suppose, but again it is hard to classify) @The One Who Connects is very much correct about the steelsight being indicative of Savant positive abilities.  But I purposefully did not look at Hemalurgists for Savanthood as it is not naturally achieved, so it is hard to distinguish what is a symptom of the Hemalurgy and what is a symptom of Savantism.  I was hoping to ID the "natural" Savants.

 

Great, now thinking about natural vs unnatural savants, I wonder if the Soulcasters count as natural, as they are not Nahel bonded and relying on trapped Spren.

 

Thanks as well for the correction on TLR's lie detection!  I need to re-read those annotations.

 

All Nalthians...  I'm going to disagree here.  They are all invested, sure, but they are not all Savants.  The investiture is too passive.  I agree that possessing a large stock of Nalthian investiture is awesome, but if you are not actively using it, you cannot become a Savant.  So much so that I don't think any non-returned Awakener could become a Savant in their lifespan.  But Vasher has been around long enough for his deeds to fade into myth and legend, so much so that he often appears as multiple people with opposed intents in the same event.  He has been awakening for long enough that I figure he could be counted as a Savant, what do you all think?

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

So to sum up. 

1: I believe Awakening is exempt.

2: I think a person's natural investiture will not result in a Savant unless they are actively pushing themselves beyond their ability (I.E. Spook/flaring, Kaladin going super weak and ashen looking prior to speaking the second ideal) 

3: external devices that channel investiture through a person will result in Savants faster and more dramatically than a natural inborn ability.

I think Hemalurgy is going to mess with those boundaries. 

I mostly agree with this.  Awakeners are exempt in 99.9999999etc% of the cases.  Pushing past your limits (The flaring, Kenton over-mastering, etc) or constant use will lead to Savantism, where as regular use will not.

External devices will mess you up, quickly.  Hemalurgy even more so.

 

So given those Criteria, does anyone have any more potential savants to add to the list?  Or are there any names that should be stricken?  Kenton might be justifiable to add.  There are decent cases for removing Marsh and Breeze.

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8 minutes ago, Stark said:

Great, now thinking about natural vs unnatural savants, I wonder if the Soulcasters count as natural, as they are not Nahel bonded and relying on trapped Spren.

Slight nitpick. Modern fabrials use trapped spren. Ancient soulcasters do not, and we don't know how the function. A large soulcasting will crack a gem. If a trapped spren were needed, they would need to acquire a proper gem with a spren trapped, but from what we've seen, they just need the correct gem type. 

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12 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Slight nitpick

Yes, but we here at the 17th Shard excel at nitpicking.  I will say that we do not know for sure that ancient fabrials do not use trapped spren.  As you say, we do not know how they function.  This is drifting a bit from the topic of Savants, but it almost feels like the koloss.  They get hemalurgic implants that increase their growth and strength till they die in battle, or the square-cube law gets them, while losing a lot of mental capacity and upping rage.  Soulcasters get transformative abilities while having physical alterations to their bodies and alterations to their mental states.  Both are unstable, leading to the eventual premature death of the subject.  Both of our examples, Kala and Human, remember having been human, and express a desire to return to the human state...

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Just now, Hemalurgic_Headshot said:

Speaking of Koloss, since Hemalurgy can grant physical qualities, such as strength, could we say that Koloss are Strength Savants?

Probably not, because it is not the extended use of magic that has warped their souls. 

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1 minute ago, Hemalurgic_Headshot said:

Koloss are Strength Savants?

I'm going to say no, for similar reasons that ferrings don't seem to be Savants.  The ferrings are not channeling investiture to gain excessive power further warping their souls.  The Koloss are being granted abilities, true, but they don't have to channel investiture to gain the benefit.  They grow in strength, as if they were tapping strength, but without the safeties in place that prevent a ferring from dying.  

 

But no, no active investiture consumption after spiking, so no Savantism in Koloss.  Era 2 Koloss-blooded Pewter Allomancers, sure.  But otherwise no.

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3 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

 

Aren't all these gems actually gem hearts?  And is it not spren interacting with the physical bodies of the creatures that allows them to defy the cube square law?  Thus it may be possible that all these gem hearts are harvested with trapped spren already.

I suppose it's possible that all gems from gemhearts have the Spren that allow excessive growth in greatshell but I doubt it. If that were true, then that specific spren type would have universal access to the surges in order to be able to fuel every possible soulcasting, and I just can't believe that.

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