Hoid and the Adonalsium

[RyFighter]

I don't know if this has been suggested before but I have a theory as to what Hoid is up to. I think his quest is to reforge Adonalsium by traveling to each of the shard worlds, collecting a splinter of each shard, and then combining them. I think this would then either cause a cascade effect across the cosmere or create a new cosmere (mini verse) with him as the vessel for the Adonalsium. I do think it's more likely the former because of some of the things he has said on Roshar. He said things like "though I care for this world I will watch it burn to get what I need". I think this implies that he would ascend into the current cosmere and be able to restore the planet in a similar fashion as Sazed when he ascended to become Harmony. Thoughts?

[ZenBossanova]

The consensus is that Hoid is collecting powers from each magic system, and it is suspected that he wants to reform Adonalsium. 

What is unknown is why. 

Or for that matter, exactly why (or what motivated) the Shattering of Adonalsium in the first place.

I have my suspicions though. 

[+ILuvHats]

And what are your suspicions, my dear man?

 

[Steeldancer]

7 hours ago, RyFighter said:

I don't know if this has been suggested before but I have a theory as to what Hoid is up to. I think his quest is to reforge Adonalsium by traveling to each of the shard worlds, collecting a splinter of each shard, and then combining them. I think this would then either cause a cascade effect across the cosmere or create a new cosmere (mini verse) with him as the vessel for the Adonalsium. I do think it's more likely the former because of some of the things he has said on Roshar. He said things like "though I care for this world I will watch it burn to get what I need". I think this implies that he would ascend into the current cosmere and be able to restore the planet in a similar fashion as Sazed when he ascended to become Harmony. Thoughts?

Hm. Well he is collecting investitures, and thereby connecting himself to various shards. So... what if maybe back on yolen there might still be an adonalsium shardpool? One that, if he connects himself to each shard, he could use to ascend. Although he has turned down a shard before, why would he pick up that power now... maybe he learned something? Maybe he wants to fix his home planet. Although I'm betting there would be a lot more to that than would initially appear. 

[ZenBossanova]

On 5/15/2017 at 10:27 PM, ILuvHats said:

And what are your suspicions, my dear man?

 

There is a non-canon version of The Liar of Partinel and it talks about a thing that is killing the planet, Yolen, called Fainlife. Imagine the white mold that grows on cheese, on steroids and investiture, and made of poison. Even with the magic of Adonalsium, no one can find a way to stop it. 

Next, the best guess where on the star chart (in Arcanum Unbound) that Yolen is, is a constellation of red stars sometimes called the Red Rip. <<Now, my speculation>>

Spoiler

 

Perhaps the fainlife was a sloppy attempt at creation, and that it grew out of control of the original gods on Yolen. In any case, I suspect Hoid is worried it will not only spread to other planets, but it is killing the stars themselves. It will destroy all stars and worlds.

Since it (maybe) can feed on Investiture, the people behind the Shattering assumed the best way to stop it, was to kill and divide Adonalsium. I think Odium/Rayse thinks this is still true, and that is why he is still focused on destroying other shards. 

Hoid thinks that the way forward, is to reunite the Shards of Adonalsium, in order to stop it. 

Take this all with a healthy grain of salt.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by ZenBossanova

[Kered]

45 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

There is a non-canon version of The Liar of Partinel and it talks about a thing that is killing the planet, Yolen, called Fainlife. Imagine the white mold that grows on cheese, on steroids and investiture, and made of poison. Even with the magic of Adonalsium, no one can find a way to stop it. 

Next, the best guess where on the star chart (in Arcanum Unbound) that Yolen is, is a constellation of red stars sometimes called the Red Rip. <<Now, my speculation>>

  Hide contents

 

Perhaps the fainlife was a sloppy attempt at creation, and that it grew out of control of the original gods on Yolen. In any case, I suspect Hoid is worried it will not only spread to other planets, but it is killing the stars themselves. It will destroy all stars and worlds.

Since it (maybe) can feed on Investiture, the people behind the Shattering assumed the best way to stop it, was to kill and divide Adonalsium. I think Odium/Rayse thinks this is still true, and that is why he is still focused on destroying other shards. 

Hoid thinks that the way forward, is to reunite the Shards of Adonalsium, in order to stop it. 

Take this all with a healthy grain of salt.

 

 

I think this is my favorite theory thus far on what was the cause behind the Shattering and Hoid's mission. Solid thoughts my man. I think the idea that Odium has in own twisted form of trying to save the cosmere, and not destroy it. 

[Steeldancer]

I still find it highly unlikely that a mold can kill stars. Just saying. Plus that would kind of be a lame final villain- our heroes versus the super mold. Yeah not very inspiring

[ZenBossanova]

Mold is just the best way I can describe what it looks like. That is what it reminds me of. 

But what it is, is the Fainlife. I presume this means imitation-life, or fake-life. 

In any case, it has desolated the planet where Adonalsium lives, and no one has found a way to stop it. Humanity is just barely still surviving. 

Are there beings that can exist in stars? Yes, we know that Autonomy lives in a star for instance.

Now, if you have a thing that can grow in spite of everything every magic user can throw at it, and even live around Adonalsium, then yes, I think it is capable of leeching life out of a star. There could be an ordinary astronomical explanation of why the Red Rip is all red dying stars, but even that is relatively improbable. And notice, that Brandon regularly RAFOs any questions about the Red Rip.

This would also explain why Hoid is willing to go so far as to allow Roshar to be destroyed, in order to further his goals - because he knows that unless he is successful, all those planets will be destroyed eventually. 

[iohn]

I like this theory.

 

1 hour ago, The Flash said:

I still find it highly unlikely that a mold can kill stars. Just saying. Plus that would kind of be a lame final villain- our heroes versus the super mold. Yeah not very inspiring

The mold doesn't necessarily have to be the final villain, any more than the ash was the final villain in mistborn era 1, odium or some other baddy can still be the villain that's using/encouraging the mold.

[Youngy]

On 2017-5-19 at 5:51 AM, iohn said:

I like this theory.

 

The mold doesn't necessarily have to be the final villain, any more than the ash was the final villain in mistborn era 1, odium or some other baddy can still be the villain that's using/encouraging the mold.

This alongside that the opposition to Adonalsium created a weapon to fight it.

 

CHAOS (17TH SHARD)

There is an opposing force to Adonalsium, and at the midnight release, I asked Brandon to write in my book something about that opposing force. He wrote:

BRANDON SANDERSON

There was a weapon created by the opposition of Adonalsium.

[ZenBossanova]

Interesting! I never considered it might have been created on purpose to destroy Adonalsium. 

There are some WoB suggesting there were attempts (plural) to destroy Adonalsium. 

[Ciridae]

@ZenBossanova My main issue with the fainlife-is-turning-stars-red theory is that in the Liar chapters we see 

Spoiler

that the people have burned a path through the fainforest. If I remember correctly it says that they had to additionally salt the earth to stop the fain life from overgrowing the path again and that with time it probably still would. But the fact that they could burn it in the first place really makes me doubt that the skullmoss or any other fainbeing could survive in a star. 

Also, it's been a while since I've read LoP, but where is it ever discussed whether or not magic can harm it? I only remember seeing lightweaving, which I don't think is ever directed at fainlife (and why would it be?), and implications of what aethers could do. I may be just missing something but does anyone ever actively use magic to try to harm the fainlife? I can't remember anything saying that it is resistant to magic.

I don't know how applicable the comparison of skullmoss to a shard really is. A shard is basically just energy attached to a consciousness, most of it in the Spiritual Realm where I doubt a star could hurt it. Maybe the fainlife has a powerful spiritual aspect as well, that could survive its physical aspect being incinerated, but I see no reason to believe that is the case.

[ZenBossanova]

On 5/20/2017 at 0:25 AM, Ciridae said:

@ZenBossanova My main issue with the fainlife-is-turning-stars-red theory is that in the Liar chapters we see 

  Reveal hidden contents

that the people have burned a path through the fainforest. If I remember correctly it says that they had to additionally salt the earth to stop the fain life from overgrowing the path again and that with time it probably still would. But the fact that they could burn it in the first place really makes me doubt that the skullmoss or any other fainbeing could survive in a star. 

Also, it's been a while since I've read LoP, but where is it ever discussed whether or not magic can harm it? I only remember seeing lightweaving, which I don't think is ever directed at fainlife (and why would it be?), and implications of what aethers could do. I may be just missing something but does anyone ever actively use magic to try to harm the fainlife? I can't remember anything saying that it is resistant to magic.

I don't know how applicable the comparison of skullmoss to a shard really is. A shard is basically just energy attached to a consciousness, most of it in the Spiritual Realm where I doubt a star could hurt it. Maybe the fainlife has a powerful spiritual aspect as well, that could survive its physical aspect being incinerated, but I see no reason to believe that is the case.

I really can't argue that, except to point out that there was more than one form of Fainlife, apparently. Still, I wouldn't use that to completely rule it out. 

[Djarskublar]

It seems like this is the first theory every new sharder posts (not really, but it is a repeat offender). I have never liked it. I still don't, even with the support people have been giving it here. The thing is, I don't think the fainlife would be a problem for the new Shards to deal with. They can create planets, I see no reason why they can't strip away the infected topsoil and dump it into empty space. They can then mash up some asteroids or something to replace the mass. Also, why would the fainlife be infecting stars in the first place? I could accept it effectively destroying Yolen (except that Frost is still there). I can't see it getting off planet. Not with the Shards vacating the premises.

As for Hoid's motives, I don't think he wants to put Adonalsium back together in the first place. He likely helped break it in the first place. He is probably running around collecting power simply for the sake of having more power to influence events. It could also be incidental to him running around to novel worthy events. While he's there he may as well try to get some more abilities, after all.

[Steeldancer]

9 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

It seems like this is the first theory every new sharder posts (not really, but it is a repeat offender). I have never liked it. I still don't, even with the support people have been giving it here. The thing is, I don't think the fainlife would be a problem for the new Shards to deal with. They can create planets, I see no reason why they can't strip away the infected topsoil and dump it into empty space. They can then mash up some asteroids or something to replace the mass. Also, why would the fainlife be infecting stars in the first place? I could accept it effectively destroying Yolen (except that Frost is still there). I can't see it getting off planet. Not with the Shards vacating the premises.

As for Hoid's motives, I don't think he wants to put Adonalsium back together in the first place. He likely helped break it in the first place. He is probably running around collecting power simply for the sake of having more power to influence events. It could also be incidental to him running around to novel worthy events. While he's there he may as well try to get some more abilities, after all.

Well we don't know, do we? This forum is meant to encourage speculation. And frankly (though I don't subscribe to it) the idea that Hoid might be trying to reforge adonalsium is perfectly logical. Otherwise newbies wouldn't so often be coming up with the idea. Until we get definite proof, no theory should be put down. However I totally am against the whole fainlife infecting stars thing. As someone pointed out, you can burn it away. So a star, which is 10000× better at burning things would not be infected by a moss. Also, in the chapters, it only infects living things! Stars aren't living. I didn't see a fain-rock in the liar of partinel, and until fain life is proved to be able to survive fire, survive in space, spread through space, and corrupt inorganic balls of nuclear fusion, I do not subscribe to that theory. Because it is illogical. 

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, The Flash said:

I totally am against the whole fainlife infecting stars thing. As someone pointed out, you can burn it away.

I don't know if the idea is relevant or not, especially since the only Canon reference we have is the AU essay.

I look at it this way though. The moss is the physical expression of a primarily Spiritual or Cognitive force. The way it corrupts wildlife seems like a Spiritual change akin to Hemalurgy. 

There is a WoB that says Planets have souls, and what we've seen of the Cognitive shows there is a Cognitive aspect to everything. 

So while I can't speak in favor of the fainlife as the reason for The Scar, I don't think we know enough to discount it. 

[Steeldancer]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I don't know if the idea is relevant or not, especially since the only Canon reference we have is the AU essay.

I look at it this way though. The moss is the physical expression of a primarily Spiritual or Cognitive force. The way it corrupts wildlife seems like a Spiritual change akin to Hemalurgy. 

There is a WoB that says Planets have souls, and what we've seen of the Cognitive shows there is a Cognitive aspect to everything. 

So while I can't speak in favor of the fainlife as the reason for The Scar, I don't think we know enough to discount it. 

Now the other reason I don't like the theory is because I have my own theory! That the Scar is caused by investiture blown off of the shattering of Adonalsium. The only other red star in the cosmere is threnody, which was also exposed to "injured investiture."  All the other shatterings were contained (in the cognitive realm or vented through spren). I find this cooler and more likely. Another possibility is that the red stars are warnings of some sort, a sort of " stay away from here" whether for Fainlife or the Evil. Both of these I find more plausible and frankly more awesome than "fainstars." Because all those stars turning red would give a scale to just how HUGE the shattering of adonalsium would have been. It must have been devastating for Yolen... in fact I just had a realization. That I will go theorize on. 

Edited May 26, 2017 by The Flash

[Pagerunner]

Having just read the LoP sample chapters again, I'll stumble into this tangent.

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 10:43 PM, ZenBossanova said:

There is a non-canon version of The Liar of Partinel and it talks about a thing that is killing the planet, Yolen, called Fainlife. Imagine the white mold that grows on cheese, on steroids and investiture, and made of poison. Even with the magic of Adonalsium, no one can find a way to stop it. 

Next, the best guess where on the star chart (in Arcanum Unbound) that Yolen is, is a constellation of red stars sometimes called the Red Rip. <<Now, my speculation>>

  Hide contents

 

Perhaps the fainlife was a sloppy attempt at creation, and that it grew out of control of the original gods on Yolen. In any case, I suspect Hoid is worried it will not only spread to other planets, but it is killing the stars themselves. It will destroy all stars and worlds.

Since it (maybe) can feed on Investiture, the people behind the Shattering assumed the best way to stop it, was to kill and divide Adonalsium. I think Odium/Rayse thinks this is still true, and that is why he is still focused on destroying other shards. 

Hoid thinks that the way forward, is to reunite the Shards of Adonalsium, in order to stop it. 

Take this all with a healthy grain of salt.

 

 

During Liar, they have not figured out how to push back the fain life, except through finding natural trune rings. But the original Hoid, and the Aethers, all believe it is possible, and it appears that they solve that problem by the time Dragonsteel Prime takes place. (Which Brandon was going to call The Eternal War, interestingly enough.)

During Midius's tale, he speaks of how the skullmoss and fain life spread from the bodies of the dead gods. He is an admitted liar, but he and Theus both swear by the "Betrayer." So, I don't think the fain life killed the old gods. Something was left behind by their death, that brings about fain life.

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 3:25 AM, Ciridae said:

My main issue with the fainlife-is-turning-stars-red theory is that in the Liar chapters we see 

  Hide contents

that the people have burned a path through the fainforest. If I remember correctly it says that they had to additionally salt the earth to stop the fain life from overgrowing the path again and that with time it probably still would. But the fact that they could burn it in the first place really makes me doubt that the skullmoss or any other fainbeing could survive in a star. 

Also, it's been a while since I've read LoP, but where is it ever discussed whether or not magic can harm it? I only remember seeing lightweaving, which I don't think is ever directed at fainlife (and why would it be?), and implications of what aethers could do. I may be just missing something but does anyone ever actively use magic to try to harm the fainlife? I can't remember anything saying that it is resistant to magic.

I don't know how applicable the comparison of skullmoss to a shard really is. A shard is basically just energy attached to a consciousness, most of it in the Spiritual Realm where I doubt a star could hurt it. Maybe the fainlife has a powerful spiritual aspect as well, that could survive its physical aspect being incinerated, but I see no reason to believe that is the case.

If fainlife is a symptom of a deeper phenomenon (I like the idea that trune rings are bubbles of safety in the Cognitive Realm that protect from whatever it is that turns life fain), then that could be what's responsible for the Physical Realm transformation of a star. It's not a 'fain star,' it's just been twisted until it begins to change. (I think the biggest argument against it is that the stars are turning red, not white. But that's neither here nor there.)

We don't see much of the Aethers, and we don't see them in action at all. But we do learn that there are Corrupted Aethers, that come and steal children from Partinel.

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 2:37 PM, ZenBossanova said:

Mold is just the best way I can describe what it looks like. That is what it reminds me of. 

But what it is, is the Fainlife. I presume this means imitation-life, or fake-life. 

In any case, it has desolated the planet where Adonalsium lives, and no one has found a way to stop it. Humanity is just barely still surviving. 

Are there beings that can exist in stars? Yes, we know that Autonomy lives in a star for instance.

Now, if you have a thing that can grow in spite of everything every magic user can throw at it, and even live around Adonalsium, then yes, I think it is capable of leeching life out of a star. There could be an ordinary astronomical explanation of why the Red Rip is all red dying stars, but even that is relatively improbable. And notice, that Brandon regularly RAFOs any questions about the Red Rip.

This would also explain why Hoid is willing to go so far as to allow Roshar to be destroyed, in order to further his goals - because he knows that unless he is successful, all those planets will be destroyed eventually. 

As I said above, the problem of the fain life is at least somewhat solved by the time of Dragonsteel Prime. During the time of Liar, fain life is twisted forms of regular life. Trees will change shape and begin to emit skullmoss. But the skullmoss doesn't appear to be the cause of the fain life; it can be brought inside a trune ring and cause no problems. I think it's backwards; something causes the life to go fain, which then produces skullmoss (which might just be fain microorganisms, for all we know).

 

Okay, just dropping some tidbits about Liar. I don't subscribe to the Rip = Fain theory, but I will say it's not without merit. Here's where you can download the first draft of several chapters, here's a revised first chapter, and here's an old thread where Brandon (EUOL) talks through some feedback while writing Liar.

[+Extesian]

Woah @Pagerunner you just drew my attention to TWG, which I've heard of before but didn't really know. I don't know how broad or useful it is but seems like it'll have great historical WoBs and be of historical Brandon interest. Cheers!

Oh and good analysis, it's been a while since I read Liar but I'd forgotten a couple of those points. 

[Pagerunner]

26 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Woah @Pagerunner you just drew my attention to TWG, which I've heard of before but didn't really know. I don't know how broad or useful it is but seems like it'll have great historical WoBs and be of historical Brandon interest. Cheers!

Most of the good stuff made it into Theoryland already. Some people get a real kick out of reading Peter's old posts, wondering if it was really the same Hoid or if Stormlight was part of the cosmere.

[ZenBossanova]

Excellent, @Pagerunner

There is a lot there that is new to me. 

I like your suggestion that the fainlife has something to do with the Cognitive Realm. It is surprising to me that Yolen has not been found, but if the Fainlife makes the Cognitive Realm difficult to traverse, especially in interstellar space, then this really isn't surprising at all. We know there are plants that grow entirely in the Cognitive Realm, so growth in the CR really shouldn't be surprising. If it really was that resistant to Adonalsium, then it might even be in all three realms, Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual. Corrupting the CR might be how it is killing stars. 

If this is true, then it might be a more ominous and visual threat in the CR, than what we see  here. Further, it would give it a very natural way to spread to other worlds (or stars). 

Edited May 27, 2017 by ZenBossanova

[Kered]

Waaaaaiiittt.....Peter writes books? 

[ZenBossanova]

I just realized that the Fainlife has to either be in the Cognitive Realm, or on other planets, because Khriss is familiar with it, and she doesn't even know where Yolen is. 

Unless she is referring to stories she has heard, but it didn't sound like that in Arcanum Unbound. 

[Pagerunner]

8 hours ago, Kered said:

Waaaaaiiittt.....Peter writes books? 

Just keep reading... He used to localize and edit manga translations.

5 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

I just realized that the Fainlife has to either be in the Cognitive Realm, or on other planets, because Khriss is familiar with it, and she doesn't even know where Yolen is. 

Unless she is referring to stories she has heard, but it didn't sound like that in Arcanum Unbound. 

She must have heard stories. She doesn't actually talk about fain life - she compares Scadrial to the non-fain Yolish ecosystem. 

[ZenBossanova]

That is possible. Taking a close look look at Arcanum Unbound, Khriss has very detailed information about Yolen, to where she can compare Scadrial in terms of size and gravitation very specifically.