Mistborn vs Full Radiant

[Agent34]

Could I point out that even if the Radiant dodges, can't Allomantic iron let the Mistborn's projectile smash into the Radiant from behind? Sorry to bring up a point from earlier on.

[Steeldancer]

2 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Could I point out that even if the Radiant dodges, can't Allomantic iron let the Mistborn's projectile smash into the Radiant from behind? Sorry to bring up a point from earlier on.

Can I point out I want to see this battle? Badly? Because it would be awesome. And I think something of the sort was promised by WoB

[The One Who Connects]

22 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Could I point out that even if the Radiant dodges, can't Allomantic iron let the Mistborn's projectile smash into the Radiant from behind? Sorry to bring up a point from earlier on.

If they merely twisted out of the way, yes. If they ran to the right for instance, then they would no longer be between the Mistborn and the projectile.

The Mistborn would have to do more maneuvering(which they could do), not to mention they may have to get closer to the Radiant depending on how far the object rolled/flew past them.

[cometaryorbit]

I totally agree that a Mistborn or Coinshot could crack shardplate in one hit with the right kind of metal object (heavy and dense - cannonball, ingot, hammer type things) and the right amount of distance. I don't think they could do it with coins, spears etc. though (at least not without many repeated strikes to the same point, which is probably beyond the average Mistborn's skill).

You might be overestimating the skill of the average Mistborn, though. The main people we've seen using Iron/Steel are Kelsier (per WOB at about the maximum possible level of skill/precision), Vin (an intuitive Allomantic genius), and Wax (a Savant). Lining it up correctly might be trickier than it looks.

However, I think the Mistborn would generally have the advantage against many Radiants, even with Shardplate and Blade, if they knew about the abilities of Plate and Blade beforehand (if they didn't, they'd be likely to get too close and be caught by the mobility and jumping-ability of Plate - it looks a lot more ponderous than it really is). A lot of the Surge stuff we've seen requires touch, so a Mistborn could avoid it pretty easily. Even if they had trouble getting through the Plate, they could stay out of reach and wear them down.

However, something like Jasnah's ranged Soulcasting of people into smoke/fire/crystal could change the picture, and we don't know what Division (apparently one of the main battle Surges) does yet except that it apparently causes fires. A Mistborn burning metals would be somewhat resistant to direct Surges, but they're pretty low Investiture compared to Stormlight stuff, so it might not be enough.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

However, something like Jasnah's ranged Soulcasting of people into smoke/fire/crystal could change the picture, and we don't know what Division (apparently one of the main battle Surges) does yet except that it apparently causes fires. A Mistborn burning metals would be somewhat resistant to direct Surges, but they're pretty low Investiture compared to Stormlight stuff, so it might not be enough.

Actually their level of Investiture is comparable by WoB.

Of course the Allomancers don't display visual effects when they become High Invested. But they Will be roughly as difficoult to manipulate with direct magic as a Radiant would be (without considerate the Plate of course).

 

As for cracking a Plate. The Mistborn doesn't really Need to be a sniper. Sure hit multiple times the same spot Will accelerate the whole process. But a bullet barrage would slowly damage the Plate anyway. Bigger sections are statistically more likely to be hit.

Of course the Plare's section Will not be Easy destroyed as the Radiant will provide Stormlight to repair It. But this would count in the Stormlight's need of the Radiant...if he ignore the Plate too long, instead he could end with a broken Plate.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Yata

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually their level of Investiture is comparable by WoB.

Do you know where that is? I know there's a WOB that Scadrial is low investiture and Roshar is high investiture, and that's what I was going off of, combined with the lack of obvious 'power glow' like Stormlight glowing or Breath color-distortion aura.

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As for cracking a Plate. The Mistborn doesn't really Need to be a sniper. Sure hit multiple times the same spot Will accelerate the whole process. But a bullet barrage would slowly damage the Plate anyway. Bigger sections are statistically more likely to be hit.

 

Sure, but if you're using something edged (like a sword/spear grabbed off the battlefield) or something small like a coin, rather than a dense chunk of metal, you might have to hit the same spot over and over, not just the same section - depending on what the material properties of Plate are, it might be weakened in one spot without meaningfully weakening the entire section.

[Calderis]

I don't have the physics knowledge some of you obviously do, so correct me if I'm wrong please.

It seems like the biggest advantage a coinshot is going to have over small arms is going to be in the way the that force is continually applied, not just for the speed and force that's been repeatedly mentioned. Plate is all rounded and angles and one of it biggest advantages against arrows/bullets is that since operate completely off momentum, the majority of their force is redirected unless they hit perfectly. A coinshots weight still pushing on the projectile at the time of impact is going to direct a much larger portion of the force into the plate itself. 

Am I making an incorrect assumption? 

[8bitBob]

53 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Am I making an incorrect assumption? 

Long story short, it depends on a lot of factors, but it may help a little bit sometimes.

Short story longer, it has to do with the type of material and projectile structure you use. If you had something like a simple piece of spherical steel, the shot is almost guaranteed going to ricochet off immediately after first impact. The springy, sturdy nature of the material means there's going to be very little deformation on impact, which means very little time spent where the target and projectile contact. In addition, that recoil force is going to probably send it flying.

On the other hand, if you had a material like lead, then you may indeed get a bit of bonus force imparted as the led deforms on the target (assuming it's a direct hit and it doesn't glance off.) This sort of thing would be hard to calculate though, and wouldn't be very substantial compared to the forces already in effect.

Where this type of thing is likely to be the most impactful is actually with coins passing through soft materials like flesh. Flesh actually clings to anything penetrating it very well, robbing it of its energy. Pushing on a coin while it passes through would be like continuing to press on a knife as you stab something. I suspect this is one of the main reasons why Coinshot are capable of passing through a target with such an inefficient projectile.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

You might be overestimating the skill of the average Mistborn, though. The main people we've seen using Iron/Steel are Kelsier (per WOB at about the maximum possible level of skill/precision), Vin (an intuitive Allomantic genius), and Wax (a Savant). Lining it up correctly might be trickier than it looks.

I do have a tendency to unfairly compare Coinshots to Wax, but I don't think I'm being unfair here. Allomancy has a lot of in built things that make it unreasonably easy to use. On her very first night, Vin balances a hundred feet in the air on what is essentially an infinitely small ribbon of force. Kelsier explains that her body naturally balances to make this happen, despite that being practically impossible for the average person.

What I'm saying is that all Steelpushing should be impossibly difficult, but it works Because Magic. In this case though, Coinshots are kind of named after their ubiquitous tendency to accurately fling bits of metal at people. It's kind of their thing.

11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

However, something like Jasnah's ranged Soulcasting of people into smoke/fire/crystal could change the picture, and we don't know what Division (apparently one of the main battle Surges) does yet except that it apparently causes fires. A Mistborn burning metals would be somewhat resistant to direct Surges, but they're pretty low Investiture compared to Stormlight stuff, so it might not be enough.

I would be really, really surprised if it was possible to Soulcast a Mistborn, or a Knight for that matter. Investiture interfering with Investiture isn't simply a balancing aspect for combat, but a fundamental law of the Cosmere. When asked questions about stuff like this, WoB has repeatedly indicated that it requires exponentially more Investiture to alter an object than the object itself has. That isn't even mentioning the fact that ranged Soulcasting seemed to take far more Investiture than melee, as it instantly shattered Jasnah's gem.

You're right about the other surges potentially being better suited though, which is why I mentioned it's a bit difficult to have this debate.

 

On another subject, I thought I'd point this out, since people seem to disbelieve my interpretation of the power of Steelpushing. In a way, I understand why that is. It just seems like too much power for an individual, and makes Allomancy seem way too strong by comparison.

Gravitation may be even more powerful for this sort of thing. One of the most deadly things Kaladin could do to an army would be to Lash hundreds of arrows and heavy objects a few times towards them and watch it wreak havoc. I doubt it would be as accurate (like trying to drop a rock on somebody from up high) but you don't need accuracy to fight a line of soldiers.

Stuff like this is why I've always discounted regular soldiers in a magic conflict. In a battle between wizards, the life of the common man is cheap.

Edited May 30, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Calderis]

33 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

Gravitation may be even more powerful for this sort of thing. One of the most deadly things Kaladin could do to an army would be to Lash hundreds of arrows and heavy objects a few times towards them and watch it wreak havoc. I doubt it would be as accurate (like trying to drop a rock on somebody from up high) but you don't need accuracy to fight a line of soldiers.

Stuff like this is why I've always discounted regular soldiers in a magic conflict. In a battle between wizards, the life of the common man is cheap.

I totally agree. It's one of the main things that made Szeth so devastating. His fly/floating/falling antics created confusion which mainly aided him when facing small numbers of targets. Whenever there were any numbers though he started lashing furniture or other large objects into the crowd. That's the thing that constantly kept him free to move. The only time he didn't do this, he allowed them to get close to Lash them directly. Gravitation is pretty OP. 

[The One Who Connects]

2 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

Gravitation may be even more powerful for this sort of thing.

At a minimum, it's comparable to Wax's Steel-Bubble, since both can bend the path of bullets, so I agree with this as well.

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[–]VindicationKnight 3 points 1 year ago 

Me again sorry, feel free to pass over me but if you're open...:)

1. Could a Full Lashing bend the path of bullets? Or do they have to much momentum?
2. Did Vin remember/think about her sister and her mother at all? Or did she not care about it?

[–]mistborn[S] 7 points 1 year ago 

1. It could.
2. It isn't that she doesn't care, it's that she never knew them.

Italics added

---

Edit: because I found a different WoB to respond to something else.

2 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

I would be really, really surprised if it was possible to Soulcast a Mistborn, or a Knight for that matter. Investiture interfering with Investiture isn't simply a balancing aspect for combat, but a fundamental law of the Cosmere. When asked questions about stuff like this, WoB has repeatedly indicated that it requires exponentially more Investiture to alter an object than the object itself has. That isn't even mentioning the fact that ranged Soulcasting seemed to take far more Investiture than melee, as it instantly shattered Jasnah's gem.

And I can quote you in an edit and have it work Anyway: Here.

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[–]H4rgLightweaver 2 points 6 months ago 

Great ! Thanks Brandon for your amazing work : ). I read SA 1 and 2 several times, and i cant wait to read tome 3 !

I would have a question about Soulcasting : is Soulcasting an invested object harder ? And if it is a human (lets say, an Allomancer) but he is not burning any metal, would he be as easy as Soulcast as any "normal" person ?

[–]mistborn 6 points 6 months ago 

It is harder to Soulcast an invested object, but soulcasters--by their nature--are used to dealing with this.

When Allomancers aren't burning metal, they are not considered highly-invested.

It's not definitive, but it's an answer of some kind

Edited May 30, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Islington]

I actually think a Pewter compounder would stand a better chance than a Mistborn. They'd be the Hulk and just punch the Knight into orbit. 

 

On a more germain note, I think order would be very influential. Fighting a flying gravity man like Kal would be different than a teleporting wizard like Jasnah, and both would be different than fighting a slidy Swamp Thing like Lift. Let alone whatever Dalinar can do with Tension/Adhesion and what Dustbringers, the primary shock troops, can do with Division. I think we don't know enough to do anything other than My Dad Can Beat Up Your Dad. 

 

However. 

 

A Mistborn has SO MANY powers. Sixteen powers. Thirty-two, technically, if we count all the Atium alloys, which since we don't know what most orders of knights do and THEY'RE fair game, should be allowed. The sheer amount of versatility would make them a nightmare to encounter. They could fight you so many ways. Headbutt your head off (a thing Vin's literally done), throw I-Beams at you from a football field away, see your future, see THEIR future, move so fast and erratically (thanks to Time-a-lurgy metals) you can't pin them down, stay up after you smack em way too long, or (maybe) suck up all your Stormlight, or make it all explode out of you, if Nicrosil works. 

 

If guerilla warfare is allowed, it gets worse. They can make you hate yourself, your squires, and your best friend. Kill all of your emotions except existential dread. Make you full of rage and unthinking. Get you to finally bone that love interest that's way better than the other one, Shallan. 

 

Heck, I'd argue that over any extended period of time, even as short as a week, a Mistborn could make a Radiant break his oaths through emotional manipulation, which is a huge weakness compared to Mistborn's easy peasy genetic lottery. That would be dependent on the opponent though. 

 

If we extend the game to full Feruchemy, or even some Twinborns or Compounders, the game gets even weirder. Can a Gold Compounder or Bloodmaker simply heal a shardwound? If so, the Feruchemist just got a big boost of power. 

 

Like I said, it's a weirdly intellectual dumb conversation. I think we just don't know enough. 

 

[The One Who Connects]

38 minutes ago, Islington said:

A Mistborn has SO MANY powers. Sixteen powers. Thirty-two, technically, if we count all the Atium alloys, which since we don't know what most orders of knights do and THEY'RE fair game, should be allowed. The sheer amount of versatility would make them a nightmare to encounter. They could fight you so many ways. Headbutt your head off (a thing Vin's literally done), throw I-Beams at you from a football field away, see your future, see THEIR future, move so fast and erratically (thanks to Time-a-lurgy metals) you can't pin them down, stay up after you smack em way too long, or (maybe) suck up all your Stormlight, or make it all explode out of you, if Nicrosil works. 

I wouldn't count Atium-Alloys on principle. Same with Lerasium alloys, it just seems too unrealistic and feels like giving the KR surges from a different order. Might just be me.

Headbutting your head would be countered by Shardplate, and getting close opens you up to the Shardblade.
Throwing stuff at you has been discussed to death already, so I wont.
Seeing their future is Atium, which is a bit of a "macguffin," but yes.
Seeing your own future could be helpful, but we don't really know enough about it to extrapolate how yet.
Moving erratically via Iron/Steel wouldn't faze a Windrunner much. Oh you meant the speed bubbles... I really need to reread how those look to an outside observer.
They'd definitely survive more punches from Plate, but I feel like the Shardbearer should just use the Blade at that point.
Chromium and Nicrosil carry the same Blade risk as a Pewter headbutt, and I'm not actually sure if Nicrosil would work since the Surgebinder isn't actually doing anything with it. It feels similar to super burning metals that you aren't burning, but that might also just be me. Chromium would work though, might take a few moments to drain all of it, but..

[Calderis]

17 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm not actually sure if Nicrosil would work since the Surgebinder isn't actually doing anything with it. It feels similar to super burning metals that you aren't burning, but that might also just be me

I agree with every point you made but this one.

When your not burning a metal it's just a lump of metal. When you are burning your invested, so Nicrosil can burn it away. 

If Nicrosil can effect Stormlight, and that's a big if, a Radiant wouldn't have to be actively using a surge because they are invested with Stormlight.

When an allomancer isn't burning the metal, it's like a radiant whose Stormlight is still in the gems. 

[Islington]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I wouldn't count Atium-Alloys on principle. Same with Lerasium alloys, it just seems too unrealistic and feels like giving the KR surges from a different order. Might just be me.

Headbutting your head would be countered by Shardplate, and getting close opens you up to the Shardblade.
Throwing stuff at you has been discussed to death already, so I wont.
Seeing their future is Atium, which is a bit of a "macguffin," but yes.
Seeing your own future could be helpful, but we don't really know enough about it to extrapolate how yet.
Moving erratically via Iron/Steel wouldn't faze a Windrunner much. Oh you meant the speed bubbles... I really need to reread how those look to an outside observer.
They'd definitely survive more punches from Plate, but I feel like the Shardbearer should just use the Blade at that point.
Chromium and Nicrosil carry the same Blade risk as a Pewter headbutt, and I'm not actually sure if Nicrosil would work since the Surgebinder isn't actually doing anything with it. It feels similar to super burning metals that you aren't burning, but that might also just be me. Chromium would work though, might take a few moments to drain all of it, but..

See, this is the problem with these kinds of exercises. We assume that a perfect defense will be mounted, and aperfect counterstroke deployed. "Well, he couldn't really use pewter because they'd have to be too close, shardblade-into-dead"  or "You can't throw stuff because A; Plate and B; Healing"

 

But you wouldn't charge a dude with a sword head on even if you did have super strength. But if you had super strength, when you found an opening in Smokestance or they missed because you're a magical metal ninja, you could punch his head clean off. Reach doesn't always win a fight, although it is very very important. 

 

Throwing I-beams is blocked by plate, but if you had already punched a cracked spot, tricked them into falling from a height, Duralumin pushed them into a rock shelf, or any other thing that happens in a fight within a narrative, you might be able to use it to your advantage. 

 

As an aside, has anyone ever asked if you can Duralumin Zinc/Brass a Greatshell or Ryshadium or Aviar? They're invested, like a Kandra, but maybe that was just a Ruin thing, with the spikes and all. The spikes were special because they were Invested though, right? 

 

Anyway. Likewise, Lashing may not work on highly invested stuff, but catching them at just the right time could let you pull one off. Lightweaving may not work super well against Bronze, we don't really know, but at the right time it could be pivotal. 

 

The answer is, honestly, whichever Brandon wanted to win given the situation. He's written both of them with enough weaknesses that, plausibly, due to circumstances and luck, either could win. And that's good. Because when the Scadriali empire begins looking at intergalactic expansion the fight won't be a steamroll. 

 

You got me on the whole Atium and Atium alloy thing. It's just too easy. I think it's the second most "OP" form of investiture. 

Electrum, though, has been shown to basically let you make guesses about how an attack will play out. Which could be useful.

And Wayne specifically uses bubbles to avoid attacks and shots from the outside, so a mistborn flying through the air spamming bubbles skillfully would be erratic to say the least. 

EDIT; Weirdly, I think Elsecallers would stand the best chance. "Oh, he jumped at me and looked mad so I teleported behind him and tried to turn his blood into smoke. It weirdly didn't work so I turned the ground into fire and his clothes into lightning and then summoned my lightsaber and Iron Man suit to finish him off"

Edited May 30, 2017 by Islington
Elsecallers are low key Harry Potter

[The One Who Connects]

30 minutes ago, Islington said:

As an aside, has anyone ever asked if you can Duralumin Zinc/Brass a Greatshell or Ryshadium or Aviar? They're invested, like a Kandra, but maybe that was just a Ruin thing, with the spikes and all. The spikes were special because they were Invested though, right? 

I don't think you could control Greatshells the way you control Kandra. The spikes crack their soul and give Ruin(and you) a way in, but for Chasmfiends, that gap is filled by those Spren they bond with. I think that would block it well enough, assuming the control isn't a spike-specific thing. Unless Ryshadium bond with Spren(everything else seems to, so..), I don't think they even have that opening to control them. No idea about aviar.

34 minutes ago, Islington said:

See, this is the problem with these kinds of exercises. We assume that a perfect defense will be mounted, and aperfect counterstroke deployed. "Well, he couldn't really use pewter because they'd have to be too close, shardblade-into-dead"  or "You can't throw stuff because A; Plate and B; Healing"

I should have said "could be countered by Plate/Blade" for much of my post, rather than "would."

35 minutes ago, Islington said:

Electrum, though, has been shown to basically let you make guesses about how an attack will play out. Which could be useful.

And Wayne specifically uses bubbles to avoid attacks and shots from the outside, so a mistborn flying through the air spamming bubbles skillfully would be erratic to say the least. 

Guess I need to reread the scenes where Electrum was used. All i really remembered was that it would make an Atium shadow split.
I agree that it would be erratic, but I didn't remember if you disappeared when the bubble spawned, looked blurry/standing still, etc.. because those would be completely different to react to.

39 minutes ago, Islington said:

The answer is, honestly, whichever Brandon wanted to win given the situation. He's written both of them with enough weaknesses that, plausibly, due to circumstances and luck, either could win. And that's good.

I agree with this, and I like that balance he's made too.

[Leviathan]

I'm imagining a Mistborn fighting against a non-flight capable radiant just Flying a while up in the air and popping a Cadmium bubble and just staying there until the Radiant either gets annoyed and leaves, or drains their stormlight reserves

[Vissy]

1 hour ago, Leviathan said:

I'm imagining a Mistborn fighting against a non-flight capable radiant just Flying a while up in the air and popping a Cadmium bubble and just staying there until the Radiant either gets annoyed and leaves, or drains their stormlight reserves

I'd think that the Mistborn would be extremely surprised when they saw the Radiant zipping towards them, enter their bubble and proceed to slontzeslap them onto the ground with Shardplate-jumping

[Jace21]

I have skimmed through the thread and I dont think I have seen this mentioned.

In Adolin's duel with Elit, Elit thrusts with his blade. Adolin then thinks that it is a gamble, but it is possible to drive between the plates to score a direct hit.

Its a way the mistborn could use smaller, lighter objects which would be less useful for shattering sections, but still not useless, spears, arrows etc.

Possibly difficult to do, and the radiant could heal, but still worth considering to try and speed up the Radiants stormlight consumption.

[Voidus]

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

I'd think that the Mistborn would be extremely surprised when they saw the Radiant zipping towards them, enter their bubble and proceed to slontzeslap them onto the ground with Shardplate-jumping

Shardplate jumping is strong but it doesn't have a hundred meter vertical leap.

[Vissy]

I suppose if they knew about the jumping ability of Shardplate, true. But to be fair, the Shardbearer could construct a twenty-meter barricade in the time it would take the cadmium-user to notice that something was wrong.

[Agent34]

34 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

I suppose if they knew about the jumping ability of Shardplate, true. But to be fair, the Shardbearer could construct a twenty-meter barricade in the time it would take the cadmium-user to notice that something was wrong.

Assuming of course the relevant materials and/or tools were all at hand. Another potential detail to add to environment.

[Alfa]

The more i read this, the more it seems a standard fighting area is needed, as well as a carefull description what equipment exactly the combatants need to have. In any other situation any sharder might think 10 scenarios victorious for each of the opponents.

[Vissy]

We just need Brandon to write it like he did with Moiraine vs. Kelsier, haha

[NamelessThirteenth]

Wait can a Gold compounder like the Lord Ruler or Miles Hundredlives survive a shardblade? Do they have the power to regenerate their souls like they regenerate their body?

[Calderis]

49 minutes ago, NamelessThirteenth said:

Wait can a Gold compounder like the Lord Ruler or Miles Hundredlives survive a shardblade? Do they have the power to regenerate their souls like they regenerate their body?

Healing through just about any means we've seen functions from the same base mechanics, even if it manifests slightly differently.

Gold can potentially heal hemalurgic damage, so it has to be able to heal the soul. Just like we know that non-progression surge, base Stormlight healing can heal the soul Ala Kaladin's arm.