Mistborn vs Full Radiant

[Voidus]

To answer the OP, by waiting until said radiant is asleep then Mistborning into their quarters and stabbing them in the eye with a knife.
Mistborn are thieves and assassins, not knights.
Put them in an open battlefield or a dueling ring and the odds are pretty highly stacked against the Mistborn, not impossible (Particularly if you give them all metals), but it would be a hard win.
But put them in the Mistborns arena, a mist covered city at midnight with no idea of your opponent and I would bet on the Mistborn against any radiant.

[The One Who Connects]

20 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

Rather than tackle more complex question of distance, I just looked at it from how a normal person would perceive three times strength. Things would effectively weigh 1/3 as much when flaring pewter. Assuming Kaladin would weigh 190lbs on earth:

190*0.7/3 = 44.333

So the question is, could pretty strong regular person throw 45lbs (20.5kg) eight feet? Yeah, probably. Or at least somewhere in that ballpark. It's right around the size of a large weight lifting plate, and people throw those around all the time for exercises of varying degrees of ridiculousness.

That's on me for overlooking the simpler way to do something  again... But now it's a discussion of if eight feet sounds reasonable for 45lbs being thrown the way Adolin tossed Kaladin, as opposed to the normal way of throwing.

[Vissy]

We still haven't even seen what a Full Radiant can do, but a Proto-Radiant of the Third Ideal can fly around at massive speeds, heal from pretty much anything that isn't a direct spine-severing decapitation and oneshot anything. A Mistborn can shoot a bunch of coins, fly around if there's metal nearby, become a little stronger via Pewter and atium. If Mistborn has Atium, he can keep up with the Radiant for as long as he has Atium but he's not going to kill the Radiant. Mistborn doesn't carry good enough weapons to kill a Radiant that effectively. Radiant on the other hand only has to land one hit to win.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

We still haven't even seen what a Full Radiant can do, but a Proto-Radiant of the Third Ideal can fly around at massive speeds, heal from pretty much anything that isn't a direct spine-severing decapitation and oneshot anything. A Mistborn can shoot a bunch of coins, fly around if there's metal nearby, become a little stronger via Pewter and atium. If Mistborn has Atium, he can keep up with the Radiant for as long as he has Atium but he's not going to kill the Radiant. Mistborn doesn't carry good enough weapons to kill a Radiant that effectively. Radiant on the other hand only has to land one hit to win.

A single well aimed Coin could kill a Radiant (also in Plate).

With Atium the Mistborn wins Easy, but honestly I don't consider Atium in those kind of fight as I always saw It as a Metallic Arts' hack.

Without Atium a Mistborn will be probably defeated by a Full Radiant in an open fight. But honestly only an idiot will directly fight a Radiant.

A Mistborn has more efficiency and long term fight abilities...a fast fight would be aganist his interesting.

[Alfa]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember that BS implied that there might be some kind of God-metal equivalent on Roshar, although iirc it was "not what we think it is". (there was something about "God surges" somewhere) Anyway, whatever it is, it might be a very strong equalizer.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Alfa
Spelling

[Yata]

42 minutes ago, Alfa said:

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember that BS implied that there might be some kind of God-metal equivalent on Roshar, although iirc it was "not what we think it is". (there was something about "God surges" somewhere) Anyway, whatever it is, it might be a very strong equalizer.

Some surges are thematically aligned with Honor and Cultivation...But they are simply Adhesion and Progression.

About the Roshar's godmetals...They are simply concentrate essence of the Shards, so the Sprenblades are made of godmetals strictly speaking.

[Vissy]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

A single well aimed Coin could kill a Radiant (also in Plate).

With Atium the Mistborn wins Easy, but honestly I don't consider Atium in those kind of fight as I always saw It as a Metallic Arts' hack.

Without Atium a Mistborn will be probably defeated by a Full Radiant in an open fight. But honestly only an idiot will directly fight a Radiant.

A Mistborn has more efficiency and long term fight abilities...a fast fight would be aganist his interesting.

Single coin? ROFL ok. Single coin can kill demigods that can heal from almost anything. This sounds like crem dung.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Yata]

1 minute ago, Rob Lucci said:

Single coin? ROFL ok. Single coin can kill demigods that can heal from almost anything. This sounds like crem dung.

Except Radiant dies if their head is crushed and a well aimed coin could penetrate the Plate (in the same way of a knife if you remember Kal's fight aganist Shallan's brother).

Usually the Healing in the Cosmere will ignore whatever happen to the body (beheading, burned to the bones,ecc....), but Radiant's stormlight healing is not so complete (I think this happen for the Bond's nature...but now it's irrelevant)

[Alfa]

10 minutes ago, Yata said:

Some surges are thematically aligned with Honor and Cultivation...But they are simply Adhesion and Progression.

About the Roshar's godmetals...They are simply concentrate essence of the Shards, so the Sprenblades are made of godmetals strictly speaking.

Might be. Though, in my opinion there might be more behind it, because the God-metals work fundamentally different from the usual ones, while adhesion and progression seem to be more like a part of the surge-wheel.

[Yata]

2 minutes ago, Alfa said:

Might be. Though, in my opinion there might be more behind it, because the God-metals work fundamentally different from the usual ones, while adhesion and progression seem to be more like a part of the surge-wheel.

You have right, I remember wrong the WoB

Quote

KHYRINDOR

Are there Surges that could be considered as God Surges, like the God metals on Scadrial?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Yes.

KHYRINDOR

Progression and Adhesion, perhaps?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

No, but they could be considered as such.

 

[Vissy]

50 minutes ago, Yata said:

Except Radiant dies if their head is crushed and a well aimed coin could penetrate the Plate (in the same way of a knife if you remember Kal's fight aganist Shallan's brother).

Usually the Healing in the Cosmere will ignore whatever happen to the body (beheading, burned to the bones,ecc....), but Radiant's stormlight healing is not so complete (I think this happen for the Bond's nature...but now it's irrelevant)

A head is "crushed", so basically obliterated completely. A single coin to the head will not accomplish that.

[Agent34]

27 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

A head is "crushed", so basically obliterated completely. A single coin to the head will not accomplish that.

Head crushing is mentioned specifically but I imagine beheading would also work or something else to stop the brain sending messages to the body. If a coin is lodged in the brain then it could do that.

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

A head is "crushed", so basically obliterated completely. A single coin to the head will not accomplish that.

Kaladin is told repeatedly that an arrow through the wrong place could still kill him. Stormlight healing is good, but I don't think it touches the level of gold. A coin through the eye into the brain would most likely be fatal. Atium would make that pretty simple, but I don't think atium will come into play if this fight ever occurs. 

[The One Who Connects]

9 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Single coin? ROFL ok. Single coin can kill demigods that can heal from almost anything. This sounds like crem dung.

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

A coin through the eye into the brain would most likely be fatal. Atium would make that pretty simple, but I don't think Atium will come into play if this fight ever occurs.

Given the difference in deadly capacity between a coin and an arrow, it would be more difficult, but still possible. And while Atium will make it easier, if they don't see the eyeslit as the best target yet(Shallan's Plate drawings are hard to judge without a face in the helmet for reference), then that simplicity means little. They may not use their opportunity at the eyeslit if they see the Atium Shadow get hit but keep walking, instead waiting for a guaranteed kill.

So it's doable, but difficult, which is where using OP things should be. It's akin to Shardblades, where it's a one-shot if you get close, but the difficulty is that you need to get close to very mobile adversaries.

[Djarskublar]

Ehhh... I think the mistborn would usually win. Coins are used simply out of convenience. I would personally carry around shotgun pellets. The mistborn isn't going to run out of metals to push if they are flying around intelligently, since iron will recall them if they are good at their job.

I mean, I'd put my money on Wax over a Surgebinder any day, let alone a mistborn. Then again, Wax has shenanigans available to him that neither he, nor most readers realize. I refer you to this thread for an explanation of the mechanic.

So, he uses this to make himself fly at the Radiant super fast, then gets close and socks him in the face with a massive tap. Stick some metals near the eyeslit while they recover, and bam. Dead. If they manage to heal anyway, you are already close, so just repeat until they stay dead. If they manage to react properly, you can avoid impaling yourself by either flying over them with a push, or slowing down with the mechanic in that thread. Then the fight is trickier, but my money is still on Wax.

Or you could, you know, just pelt them with coins until enough go through the faceplate to either insta-kill, or run them out of Light to heal with.

A mistborn wouldn't have any problems maneuvering to keep away from the Radiant even on open terrain. At worst, they can push metal against the Plate and use that to send themselves flying directly away. At best, they can drop 3+ coins and just balance pushes on them and stay above the Radiant out of reach until their Light runs out. Unless Plate acts as a really good Light battery, in which case they would also spray them with coins constantly while doing this, then using iron to recollect them over time, simply to wear down the armor by forcing it to make minor repairs and some from leaking.

As an aside, could a mistborn perhaps resist a Blade by duralumin burning all their metals at the instant the Blade connects? They would have a massive temporary influx of Investiture, so I could see it potentially at least slowing the Blade, if not deflecting it. Not that that would save you, since then you are without metals right up next to an angry Radiant.

[Andy92]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Given the difference in deadly capacity between a coin and an arrow, it would be more difficult, but still possible.

Eh, not really. Force equals mass x acceleration. A Mistborn shooting a coin using a duralumin steel push is going to have such a high acceleration that the overal force of the coin would probably exceed that of an arrow shot from a bow. Not to mention that a coin would have a better chance at making it through the eye slits of a Radiant's face guard. 

[cometaryorbit]

Shardplate is described as giving "the strength of many men", which sounds significantly more than the 3x or so of flared Allomantic pewter.

And given the size of Dalinar's hammer, he'd have to be something like 20 times as strong as a normal man, more like 30 probably. It was difficult for two men to lift, which probably means well over 100 pounds.

Historical weapons were actually very light:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm

[Vissy]

My point is that a Mistborn is several levels below a Knight Radiant when it comes to several things such as:

1) Level of Investiture, or "Investedness" I guess

2) "Power Level" - Shardplate confers this massively, especially when it comes to raw strength. Stormlight is also a passive boost, plus it heals them. Mistborn don't get healed.

3) Mobility (Edgedancers destroy Mistborn in agility. Windrunners destroy Mistborn in general mobility and they have basically a superior version of flight. Etc etc etc.)

4) Stability. Surgebindings are individually more powerful than flared metals (quite clearly), but duralumin beats them out (however it's single-use).

So essentially a KR is more mobile, more powerful and more durable than a Mistborn. They are on completely different echelons of power. A KR only needs to land a few punches to immobilize a Mistborn, whereas the Mistborn's only chance of victory lays in getting a lucky headshot.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

1) Level of Investiture, or "Investedness" I guess

Nothing to say here, also if this is mainly because the SprenBlade is a lot of magnitude beyond the mortals' investiture.

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

2) "Power Level" - Shardplate confers this massively, especially when it comes to raw strength. Stormlight is also a passive boost, plus it heals them. Mistborn don't get healed.

Yeah physically a Radiant will be physically stronger than a Mistborn. But He will also retains this strenght for less time, as the Stormlight will run out faster than pewter if you want to stay above a Mistborn's level. Much more as both the Radiant and the Plate consume it.

For a Mistborn is really easier to obtain new Metals than for a Surgebinder to obtain more Stormlight...the Mistborn could destroy Infused gemstones easier than what a Surgebinder could do with the metals (with the probably exception of Division user and allomantic alloys)

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

3) Mobility (Edgedancers destroy Mistborn in agility. Windrunners destroy Mistborn in general mobility and they have basically a superior version of flight. Etc etc etc.)

I could see your point but I think you overstimate this kind of mobility skills. Abrasion will give a little advantage but not so great to "destroy Mistborn in agility". It will allow them to climb wall (not perfectly as the gravity still affect them) but their speed will not be boosted by a lot without air friction.

The Gravity Surges is greatly better for a long use because you could let the gravity to accelerate you. But in a short time fight, unless you use always multiple lashing to change direction (consuming more Stormlight)...you will start slow. A Steel/Iron are really more reactive to dodge and fast reactions.

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

4) Stability. Surgebindings are individually more powerful than flared metals (quite clearly), but duralumin beats them out (however it's single-use).

This is probably true, but the array of Mistborn's ability is really wide. I will not understimate some "second class" powers like Bronze (a Mistborn knows always where the Surgebinder is regardless of Illumination or other kind of stealth attempt), Brass/Zinc (if you manage to destroy Plate's helm a durallumin Brass could shout down the Radiant and then you could shoot another durallumin zinc as a second try) or Electrum to have a bit of foresight during the combat.

 

Again I don't want to say a Mistborn will defeat a Radiant. Simply the fight is really less unidirectional than you think.

Just considerate the damage a Mistborn could do to a plate with a barrage of metal objects (recoverable after the use). This would crack/destroy the plate or keep draining the Radiant's Light to repair the Plate. If also a single bullet remains in contact with the Plate. A Mistborn could use it as an anchor to keep the distance with the Radiant (Mostly all the Radiants' abilities are at zero or short range) and he need only to buy time for the Light to diminish

PS: I explicity not used Chromium as getting in close combat isn't a real good idea. But if the Radiant manages to grab the Mistborn, Chomium could be an option to try to add another problem to the Radiant's list

Edited May 26, 2017 by Yata

[Vissy]

You're right, it's not so easy to determine who would win in a fight. I was more trying to say that a Radiant basically operates on a higher "power level" if such things exist in the Cosmere, but a Mistborn can still make it a tough fight. For example if both sides didn't have any equipment, KR would win every single time. But with the proper equipment, Mistborn gets a big power boost.

That being said, I'm not sure how a Mistborn would deal with a Soulcasting KR. Can they Soulcast a Mistborn into a cloud of smoke?

Edited May 26, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[8bitBob]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Shardplate is described as giving "the strength of many men", which sounds significantly more than the 3x or so of flared Allomantic pewter.

And given the size of Dalinar's hammer, he'd have to be something like 20 times as strong as a normal man, more like 30 probably. It was difficult for two men to lift, which probably means well over 100 pounds.

If Adolin had the strength of twenty to thirty men in Plate, he would have thrown Kelsier clean across the training pit and probably pushed his rib cage out his back.

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

1) Level of Investiture, or "Investedness" I guess

Roshar does indeed have more Investiture flying around and being used, but I fail to see how that's beneficial here. Unless he's fighting on top of a dragon's hoard of infused gems, he's going to run out of Stormlight far sooner than a Mistborn will run out of metal reserves. Unless you're saying this will help against emotional Allomancy or Steelpushing the Knight directly, which is true but doesn't seem very relevant.

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

2) "Power Level" - Shardplate confers this massively, especially when it comes to raw strength.

As has been discussed earlier, this is up to debate. We also have no idea if being a Knight in Plate makes you stronger than a regular person in Plate. I realise that sounds intuitive to some, but a strong man isn't going to be stronger than a weak man in a mech suit. Same could apply to Plate. I'm not saying that this is the case, just that this is by no means a given.

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

3) Mobility (Edgedancers destroy Mistborn in agility. Windrunners destroy Mistborn in general mobility and they have basically a superior version of flight. Etc etc etc.)

Potentially true, but more subjective than you're implying. A Mistborn is going to have no chance escaping a Windrunner in an open field, but they're not going to have a significant advantage in something like a city setting.

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

4) Stability. Surgebindings are individually more powerful than flared metals (quite clearly), but duralumin beats them out (however it's single-use).

Don't really agree with this on either account. Firstly, because Mistborn can do stuff like literally warp time with bendalloy and create cannon tier projectiles with their mind, which is insanely powerful, but also with the idea that duralumin is single use. Vin repeatedly showed that you can quickly down more metals after a duralumin burst, and she had to deal with Coinshots snatching her vials away, which will not be a problem here. It's more akin to requiring a reload than a one off burst.

1 hour ago, Rob Lucci said:

They are on completely different echelons of power. A KR only needs to land a few punches to immobilize a Mistborn, whereas the Mistborn's only chance of victory lays in getting a lucky headshot.

I think you're overestimating the durability of Plate and underestimating the strength of Steelpushes. We've often seen Plate be cracked by mundane things such as hammers wielded by regular troops, sling stones from regular troops and enhanced punches. Meanwhile, Steelpushes are anything but mundane. Coinshots produce hundreds of pounds of force over long distances, imparting incredible momentum by the time the projectile hits. The entire reason they're called Coinshots isn't because the have some sort of currency based motif going on, but because they can kill you with basically anything, so why bother having specialized projectiles? Imagine trying to kill someone with a forty five pound bow (or sling shot, if that's easier to picture) and all you have to fire is a coin. It's barely going to penetrate even the softest flesh, let alone go clean through as Coinshots have been known to do. If anything else we've seen break Plate can, a Coinshot with a decent anchor most certainly can.

Because of this, you don't need a lucky shot through the visors for a kill. Even if the projectile doesn't kill, healing with Stormlight is not free. It's going to drain the Knight pretty fast if he's getting shredded by random debris.

Once again, I've neglected to mention duralumin in this, as I don't really think Plate stands a chance against it. This also doesn't get into the theoretical uses for things like Chromium and Bendalloy for grappling, since we don't know how it would interact with needing to drain so much Investiture. We've also been told that Electrum has far more uses than we've been lead to believe (seeing your own death before it happens sounds pretty useful.)

Like I said before, I think the Knight would probably easily win if they knew nothing about each other, but Mistborn have a lot of advantages if the combatants are familiar with the other at all.

 

Finally, we have a quote from the man himself:

Quote

INTERVIEW: Feb 28th, 2011

BRANDON SANDERSON

First question: It's always hard to answer these questions, since there are so many factors. Do the combatants start at a distance? If so, Marsh/Zane have a huge advantage; they have the ability to fling coins.

[...]

Overall, I'd say that a full-blown Mistborn would be tougher than Szeth in most cases.

Szeth was basically a less efficient, highly trained full Windrunner who eschewed Plate (which some were known to do) and Brandon still placed his bet on a full Mistborn. That's a pretty big mark of confidence, in my opinion.

edit:

New posts were added as I was typing. Apologies if some points were already addressed.

edit2:

Quote

That being said, I'm not sure how a Mistborn would deal with a Soulcasting KR. Can they Soulcast a Mistborn into a cloud of smoke?

Investiture interferes with Investiture. A Mistborn should be way harder to Soulcast due to all the metals they're burning. This is speculation, but I'd be surprised if it was possible (for all practical situations.)

Edited May 26, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Vissy]

I still think you're overhyping Mistborn. What kind of a Mistborn are we talking about? A prodigy like Kelsier, or your run-of-the-mill TFE-era assassin?

[Yata]

27 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

That being said, I'm not sure how a Mistborn would deal with a Soulcasting KR. Can they Soulcast a Mistborn into a cloud of smoke?

Mmm hardly. An allomancer is high Invested while he is burning metals and a Mistborn will probably burn multiple metals at the same time for the whole fight (Pewter, Tin, Steel, Iron and Bronze). I think the Stormlight's cost will be proibitive unless you are an Herald directly fueled by Honor.

[8bitBob]

5 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

I still think you're overhyping Mistborn. What kind of a Mistborn are we talking about? A prodigy like Kelsier, or your run-of-the-mill TFE-era assassin?

Brandon's post just said full blown Mistborn, rather than Marsh or Zane despite the question phrasing it that way. That seems to imply run of the mill Mistborn.

My points were mostly about the raw forces involved though, not skill. A green Coinshot is going to push just as hard as Vin, and be just as capable of producing monstrous force, so I'm a bit confused.

Edited May 26, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Vissy]

Well, that depends if the mistborn has time to start burning metals before he gets turned into another element...

What if the KR can just dodge the coins / bullets / whatever? Kaladin could dodge arrows as a proto-Radiant when he hadn't even sworn his Second Ideal yet. Doesn't seem like a stretch to me to assume that a full Radiant can dodge coins, especially with the mobility they have.