Mistborn vs Full Radiant

[Yata]

2 hours ago, Alfa said:

Also, the order of the radiant might matter. A lighweaver might fare better than a windrunner making herself invisible, throwing illusions and striking from behind. An elsecaller might just strike out from the cognitive realm. While the windrunner might just fly around chasing the Mistborn until his light drains.

It's not really relevant but I think a Mistborn would spot an invisibile Lightweaver with his steelsight (assuming the Radiant has some metal on himself) or tin (with the improved senses) or bronze (as he will detect Stormlight's usage)

[Weltall]

Since we know Shardblades and Plate can be Pushed (even if it's difficult) this setup by definition makes it impossible for a Lightweaver or Truthwatcher to hide from a Mistborn with access to steel or iron because they'll always be able to 'see' those things even if the Radiant has no other metal on them.

[Yata]

1 minute ago, Weltall said:

Since we know Shardblades and Plate can be Pushed (even if it's difficult) this setup by definition makes it impossible for a Lightweaver or Truthwatcher to hide from a Mistborn with access to steel or iron because they'll always be able to 'see' those things even if the Radiant has no other metal on them.

Well a Blade is pushable under Crazy cirtumstances....a normal Mistborn or also a Lerasium One will not be able to spot a Blade with his steel/iron.

We know this quote for sure as an object less Invested than a Blade is invisibile to steelsight.

PS: you need a Mistborn powered by the Well or a TLR's durallumin push to influence a Blade (by WoB)

[Alfa]

30 minutes ago, Yata said:

It's not really relevant but I think a Mistborn would spot an invisibile Lightweaver with his steelsight (assuming the Radiant has some metal on himself) or tin (with the improved senses) or bronze (as he will detect Stormlight's usage)

My bet is on bronze, but a mistborn must be devilishly sensitive to distinguish between the pulse of the investiture in an illusion and the investriture of the hidden lightweaver. Anyway, my point was that the "utility surge" orders might be more effective against mistborn than "combat surge" ones.

[Weltall]

46 minutes ago, Yata said:

PS: you need a Mistborn powered by the Well or a TLR's durallumin push to influence a Blade (by WoB)

The only WoB's I've seen have said that you'd need duralumin to effectively push a Shardblade, not that you'd also need to be Rashek-level to do so. If a mistborn with duralumin can affect a blade, by definition they must be able to detect it however faintly with steel/iron sight.

Is there a newer WoB on the topic than this one which I've missed?

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, Weltall said:

Is there a newer WoB on the topic than this one which I've missed?

I remember the entry that Yata is talking about, and I believe the one you posted may have been a newer version of it.

[Knight Oblivion]

On 5/18/2017 at 10:50 AM, Alfa said:

My bet is on bronze, but a mistborn must be devilishly sensitive to distinguish between the pulse of the investiture in an illusion and the investriture of the hidden lightweaver. Anyway, my point was that the "utility surge" orders might be more effective against mistborn than "combat surge" ones.

Since the conflict is with a "seasoned" Radiant, I see no reason to not assume a greatly skilled mistborn for the other combatant. The potential to be able to seek a surgebinder such as a Radiant of a utility order doesn't seem out of the question.

 

Anyways, I'd say that a mistborn has a greater access to investiture needed to use their skills in more environments/locals than a Radiant would. This would mean that a mistborn could stall them out and strike the Radiant through the faceplate with a coin, arrowhead, or spear point from a distance. The relative inaccessibility of stormlight compared to the omnipresent power of Preservation (vials of metal are easy to stock up on for use and are needed in lower quantities) means that healing is less a factor. Basically, a mistborn has more powers and greater access to their powers. The deck is stacked against a Radiant.

[8bitBob]

I covered this topic a bit in the Roshar vs Fallen Empire thread, but that was about dead Blades and Plate vs a limited Mistborn. There's unfortunately some issues for this discussion, mainly due to a few factors:

1. Which Order of Radiant is fighting?
2. We know very little about most Surgebindings.
3. We've never seen a Mistborn with access to the full range of metals so far (mainly Bendalloy and Chromium, but it's a big deal.)

Because of this, it's hard to say. Many Radiants weren't even combatants, despite their powers. How can we tell how a Stoneward Knight stacks up against a Mistborn if we have no idea what their abilities are?

Additionally, we've only seen Mistborn fight other metalborn, and that has a very strong effect on the combat. No metal weapons, no specialized projectiles, etc. I think the most important factor to mention here is how incredibly efficient all metal reserves are, and how long you can go if you swallow beads of metal. When performing a Pewter Drag, Vin and Kelsier consume five beads of Pewter, which allows them to flare for an entire hour. In case you forgot, Pewter was considered by far the fastest burning metal of the base eight.

If I were to guess, I imagine this doctrine of low amounts of metal in powder form comes as a direct result of early generation Mistborn, which were much more powerful. You don't want such an easy anchor for another Mistborn in your stomach, even if they shouldn't be able to push it. Maybe Steel Savants could? Point is, this sort of thing is not an issue when fighting a Shardbearer, and if you have time to prepare, you will effectively have endless reserves to draw upon compared to your opponent.

Other than that, it's a matter of the details and forces involved. How strong is Pewter vs Plate? I was reading a thread on my mobile that said WoB says they're actually comparable, but I didn't see a source given. If anyone has seen this, I'd appreciate a link. This seems to jive with what we've seen in books though:

Quote

Unfortunately, Adolin had dismissed his Blade as they fell. The princeling got a gauntleted hand up underneath Kaladin.

Kaladin slammed his weapon downward.

Adolin heaved upward with one hand.

Kaladin’s blow didn’t connect; instead he found himself airborne, thrown with all the Plate-augmented strength of a Shardbearer. He floundered in the air before slamming down eight feet away, the sand grinding into his side, the shoulder he’d hit against Adolin flaring in pain again. Kaladin gasped.

Remember that Roshar is 0.7g compared to earth. This is pretty strong, but it's not exactly Herculean, and not too dissimilar from what we've seen from Pewter flaring. I don't feel that Plate is going to give you a significant advantage in strength compared to Pewter.

Additionally, I don't think a Mistborn is going to have significant issue cracking Plate by hitting it with Steelpushed objects. I don't have the time to pull up all of the examples, but the amount of force a Mistborn is capable of generating on an object is immense. While something like coins probably wouldn't work, something akin to a small cannon shot or horse shoes almost guaranteed will, which doesn't even mention the absurdity that is the Duralumin Steelpush. This gives Mistborn a large advantage in any ranged combat that they have time to prepare for. Personally, I think Windrunner without Plate would fare a lot better simply due to the usefullness of the Reverse Lashing in this regard.

That being said, a Radiant is going to have significant advantages if the combatants know nothing about each other. Shards are weird. Radiant Shards even more so. I mean, a living weapon that can almost instantly become any shape and kills with a single touch? Metal you can't push on? Weapons that can't be stolen or dropped for long? I think a Mistborn would get pretty soundly wrecked if they tried to fight a Radiant in melee without knowing about these things. Meanwhile, a Mistborn is just a pretty strong and fast person who flies around. Nothing a Radiant would be terribly surprised by, nor be incapable of fighting.

In the end, I think a Radiant probably wins if you just dropped the both of them on a field and they started fighting immediately. Not knowing the danger of Shardblades is simply too big a deal to ignore. That being said, I don't think this is a very realistic situation, and I give the Mistborn the advantage if the combatants understand the basics of one another's abilities and have any time to prepare. Really, when your options are:

1. Use magic mindpowers to safely fight from a distance and wear down your opponent
2. Try to fight an unstoppable murder sword in melee

Which option are you going to gravitate towards?

[Kingsdaughter613]

Don't forget that Scadrial has guns and aluminum, while it remains in a wound, can't be healed. Or effected with investiture at all. So all ANY Scadrian would need is a sharpshooter sending an aluminum bullet through the eye slit. The helm itself would keep the bullet from exiting, and prevent our radiant from healing.

[hoidhunter]

I'm not sure where you got this. Can you provide support? WoB or something...

Didn't Wayne get shot by an aluminum bullet and heal?

As for the actual discussion...I'm not sure who would win. As many people have pointed out, there are a lot of variables.  I'd have to assume that we were talking about a wind runner...because we haven't really seen a lot of combat action from other orders...

That being the case, I'd put my money on mistborn.  

Edited May 23, 2017 by hoidhunter

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, hoidhunter said:

I'm not sure where you got this. Can you provide support? WoB or something...

Didn't Wayne get shot by an aluminum bullet and heal?

Aluminum only prevents healing where it makes physical contact. Once it's passed through the wound will heal perfectly fine. 

If a bullet were to lodge in the brain, healing would continually be attempting to fix it until it were either removed or the radiant ran out of Stormlight. 

I don't even know what to look for to find the WoBs involved here, but Aluminums ability to block investiture doesn't allow the healing to reach places where it is physically present. It does not, however cause permanent wounds.

[+Extesian]

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Aluminum only prevents healing where it makes physical contact. Once it's passed through the wound will heal perfectly fine. 

If a bullet were to lodge in the brain, healing would continually be attempting to fix it until it were either removed or the radiant ran out of Stormlight. 

I don't even know what to look for to find the WoBs involved here, but Aluminums ability to block investiture doesn't allow the healing to reach places where it is physically present. It does not, however cause permanent wounds.

Here you go

Quote

KURKISTAN

What would happen if you shot a Thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?—[Note: Brandon initially misunderstands the question, as you shall see.]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ah, that's a good question. And, um.. the wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out, and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

KURKISTAN

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, you're talking about Thu— Oh, okay. Yeah, ummm... It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't really have a huge effect on them.

KURKISTAN

Ah, okay. 'Cause Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

BRANDON SANDERSON

What was he thinking of... There is some weird interaction but—

KURKISTAN

< rudely interrrupts > In the wedding scene [in Alloy of Law] Wax thinks that they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs and I was like "oh that's a typo" and Peter was like "oh no it's not..."

BRANDON SANDERSON

No no... That would just be—it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone. It's just the same as the Bloodmaker.

KURKISTAN

< Various pleasantries from me apologizing for all the confusion >

Source

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Extesian

[The One Who Connects]

15 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

Quote

Kaladin’s blow didn’t connect; instead he found himself airborne, thrown with all the Plate-augmented strength of a Shardbearer. He floundered in the air before slamming down eight feet away, the sand grinding into his side, the shoulder he’d hit against Adolin flaring in pain again. Kaladin gasped.

Remember that Roshar is 0.7g compared to earth. This is pretty strong, but it's not exactly Herculean, and not too dissimilar from what we've seen from Pewter flaring. I don't feel that Plate is going to give you a significant advantage in strength compared to Pewter.

From here it's a debate on the logistics of how doubled strength, flaring triples compares to being launched 8 feet in 0.7g.

Quote

0.7g needs a 43%(42.857% to be more specific) increase to reach 1g.
If we assume that this would reverse translate into distance: the 92 inches Kal got launched(8 feet) would we 43% more than he would have been launched in 1g.
64.4 inches is the number that fits. It's 0.7 of 92inches, and if you give 64.4 a 43% increase you get 92.

Disclaimer: I hold almost no actual knowledge of the inner workings of gravitics, so if someone wants to correct my maths, feel free.

[Calderis]

20 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

From here it's a debate on the logistics of how doubled strength, flaring triples compares to being launched 8 feet in 0.7g.

Disclaimer: I hold almost no actual knowledge of the inner workings of gravitics, so if someone wants to correct my maths, feel free.

I feel like a broken record, every time this gets brought up I feel like I have to say this. Either Pewter's strength is severely under represented In the Mistborn series, or the WoB that says pewter and Shardplate are roughly equal is just plain wrong. 

In tWoK, the scene in which Dalinar is using his plate to dig a latrine trench. Two laborers together can barely lift his Warhammer. Dalinar takes it one handed and casually lifts it up to rest on his shoulder. That is a discrepancy in strength greater than 3x. If two people can barely lift it together, a third person's strength would not be enough to wield it in battle for any decent length of time.

Add the way Moash accidentally crushed Kaladin's ribcage... 

Either Pewter is much stronger than indicated, or it pales in comparison to plate. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Calderis

[The One Who Connects]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

or the WoB that says pewter and Shardplate are roughly equal is just plain wrong. 

Out of curiosity, do you mind linking it? I actually don't think that I've ever seen that one before.

Edited May 24, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Calderis]

52 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Out of curiosity, do you mind linking it? I actually think that I've never seen that one before

Let me do some searching. I've seen it multiple times. I don't think I'd get so worked up about this if I hadn't. 

Edit: searching I've only been able to find times @Yata referenced it. I'm sure I've seen it. Hopefully he knows how to find it. I wish I was better at finding these things. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Calderis

[Yata]

59 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Let me do some searching. I've seen it multiple times. I don't think I'd get so worked up about this if I hadn't. 

Edit: searching I've only been able to find times @Yata referenced it. I'm sure I've seen it. Hopefully he knows how to find it. I wish I was better at finding these things. 

Lol in this way seems It's a idea of mine XD 

Anyway It is One of that WoB hard to find...I have to check in Pagerunner's collection but I am not really too hopeful

[+Extesian]

14 minutes ago, Yata said:

Lol in this way seems It's a idea of mine XD 

Anyway It is One of that WoB hard to find...I have to check in Pagerunner's collection but I am not really too hopeful

Yeah, without sharpening my own Blade too  much, there aren't many WoBs I'm unable to track down and I've spent a loooong time looking for this - all I've found is Sharders referring to such a WoB but never the WoB itself. It may be one of the times the speculation takes on a life of its own. 

But if somebody can find it I'm happy because I don't like the implication of such a WoB, I'd prefer it be wrong

Edited May 24, 2017 by Extesian

[asterion137]

mistborn with atium beats shardbearing radiant. Mistborn with atium beats damnation near anything tho

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Yeah, without sharpening my own Blade too  much, there aren't many WoBs I'm unable to track down and I've spent a loooong time looking for this - all I've found is Sharders referring to such a WoB but never the WoB itself. It may be one of the times the speculation takes on a life of its own. 

But if somebody can find it I'm happy because I don't like the WoP, I'd prefer it be wrong

Until I see a WoB, I'm going to operate under the assumption that this information is incorrect. 

The strength we've seen from Shardplate is just too impressive for pewter to compare in my opinion. 

[asterion137]

Just now, Calderis said:

Until I see a WoB, I'm going to operate under the assumption that this information is incorrect. 

The strength we've seen from Shardplate is just too impressive for pewter to compare in my opinion. 

strength won't come into play imo if the mistborn has atium (which they almost always do)

[Calderis]

Just now, asterion137 said:

strength won't come into play imo if the mistborn has atium (which they almost always do)

The conversation had somewhat derailed. As far as atium is concerned, it's just a trump card. Realistically though, by the time these cultures interact, natural Mistborn and atium are both out of the picture, so that point is moot. 

[8bitBob]

59 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Disclaimer: I hold almost no actual knowledge of the inner workings of gravitics, so if someone wants to correct my maths, feel free.

Rather than tackle more complex question of distance, I just looked at it from how a normal person would perceive three times strength. Things would effectively weigh 1/3 as much when flaring pewter. Assuming Kaladin would weigh 190lbs on earth:

190*0.7/3 = 44.333

So the question is, could pretty strong regular person throw 45lbs (20.5kg) eight feet? Yeah, probably. Or at least somewhere in that ballpark. It's right around the size of a large weight lifting plate, and people throw those around all the time for exercises of varying degrees of ridiculousness.

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The strength we've seen from Shardplate is just too impressive for pewter to compare in my opinion. 

The sparring scene was described as the full strength of Plate and Zahel was pretty upset with Adolin, so it probably wasn't an exaggeration. I realise that this doesn't jive with the Dalinar digging scene, but there's reasonable explanations for this. The workers could have simply have had trouble lifting it due to the awkward shape and weighting of the hammer. Like Dalinar says, a man in Shardplate can do the work of twenty men, but they don't appear to have the strength of twenty men. Needing multiple people and hands always makes a process more difficult and awkward.

Honestly though, I think the full strength of Plate, like pewter, wasn't fully canonized, so its strength is a bit variable at times. My gut tells me Plate is probably a bit stronger than pewter, but I don't think it's enough to provide a very significant advantage. Maybe this will change in the future if Brandon decides to give more exact measurements for these sorts of things.

[hoidhunter]

Thanks to both of you for providing the reverent info...I actually found it myself not long after posting, then got lost in an ADD moment and didn't come back to this thread. Upvotes to both of you.

I really should be able to do the legwork myself...I've been absent from the shard for a while and need to reign in my etiquette...thanks again.

[Chaos]

I've edited this topic title; the previous one "Why does everyone like Mistborn" was clickbaity and deceptive. That's not useful for anyone.