Why Did Kelsier Go to South Scadrial?

[cometaryorbit]

I think at the time of the first book Kelsier was 'on the side of good' but not really a very good person himself. I think that by that point he wanted to be though.

My understanding is that before he & Mare were caught he wasn't that interested in helping others, he wanted wealth but even more so he wanted to be the person who accomplished stuff nobody else did.

After Mare's death & his escape he became committed to overthrowing the Final Empire, & had learned about the power of hope in helping people to survive the worst times, but he was still in significant part driven by the desire to be 'the best', he wanted to overthrow the Empire not just because it was cruel but also because it was thought to be impossible.

I think that his sparing Elend was another big step, mentoring Vin changed him some more.

And then I think Leras/Preservation's 'Do better, the souls of men are not your toys' speech and Vin's final words about love are going to have had an impact, going forwards. Kelsier will probably always have a weakness for grand gestures, but I think in Era 2 (and on?) he'll be more careful about his actions' impact on ordinary people's lives.

And he sees the larger picture now. I think he's likely to end up being somewhat of a maverick/rogue agent of Harmony, doing things behind the scenes to protect / strengthen Scadrial in the face of other Cosmere forces, but maybe things that Harmony can't do and maybe can't even want to do or ask other people (eg Wax, kandra) to do due to his 'Shardic Mandate limitations'.

[Vissy]

I wonder if Kelsier still wants to be a good person, given that everyone who he cared about - aside from Saze - is dead, or even in Saze's case replaced by a monolithic ultra-god. Especially Vin's death and departure into the Beyond seemed to have hit him hard. Keep in mind that this is the daughter he never had with Mare. Spook was his only "friend" for a time. Can't wait for Lost Metal.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Kingsdaughter613]

Marsh is still around...and Kell does care about his brother's opinion. I think he would still want to be a good person; it was always part of him. It's part of what makes him so fascinating. So many characters are naturally good; I love seeing one that isn't, but tries to be, especially as a heroic character instead of a villainous/anti-villainous one.

(On a peripherally related note, the above is part of why I like Arvis from Fire Emblem. He knows he's an utter dastard, embraces it, and tries to use it to make the world a better place. Best part? If it wasn't for deus ex machina (an evil dragon possessing his son) he would have succeeded! Actually, Fire Emblem has quite a few of these fascinating villains; Arvis is just one of my favorites, followed by Emperor Rudolph. 

(Or maybe I just like morally ambiguous, guile (anti) villains/heroes, who actually have surprisingly good, and, often, oddly heroic goals? No wonder I adore Kelsier!)

[Yata]

I think Kelsier will be a different being from the one we remember.

His Soul is now purelly Preservation's Power, He lived 300 years as a Cognitive being and he is the core of one fertile religion. His own nature will change.

To me now Kel is more the Survivor than the old Kel we knowed

[Kingsdaughter613]

I actually wonder if he's moved past the Survivor. I'm of the opinion that at some point the Survivor will be one of his gold shadows. (Note that I think his shadows during TFE were a nobleman and a broken Skaa. The nobleman is hard and cold, willing to do whatever he must to keep his secrets. The Skaa is despairing, knows nothing but pain and hate, is more than a little mad, and keeps living only because he does not know how to stop. Somewhere in between you have the Survivor.)

And the thing about his Soul is an in world theory; not necessarily accurate. Kell actually lived about thirteen years as a purely cognitive being. Then he got a body... He also seems to be the core of two religions..,

And since Brandon has indicated that Kelsier's heroic journey and growth as person will be an important part of Era three and four I find it unlikely that Kell's own nature would be subsumed by the mythos he created.

[WhiteLeeopard]

I find it a bit hard to imagine if Kell can be very obvious on Era 3 and 4. Mainly because if he appears and an entire world realizes their god is really human, it might lead to despair, disilusionment and many negative emotions. On the idea of, imagine if Jesus appeared today as he was, what would people do/make/think? Some things are best left to the imaginations of people. That been said I could totally see Kelsier moving around the shadows, and ocasionally letting himself be known to those that wouldnt fall on their knees in wonderment (i.e Wayne, who would just ask him to talk so he could steal his accent would be fun  )

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I find it a bit hard to imagine if Kell can be very obvious on Era 3 and 4. Mainly because if he appears and an entire world realizes their god is really human, it might lead to despair, disilusionment and many negative emotions. On the idea of, imagine if Jesus appeared today as he was, what would people do/make/think? Some things are best left to the imaginations of people. That been said I could totally see Kelsier moving around the shadows, and ocasionally letting himself be known to those that wouldnt fall on their knees in wonderment (i.e Wayne, who would just ask him to talk so he could steal his accent would be fun  )

I don't think this is quite accurate. It may have been prettied up a bit, but the words of founding has an account of the events of era 1.the people of the church of the survivor should know what type of person Kel was and accept him as God anyway. They focus on his determination. 

Their ability to look past Kel's faults says a lot, both positive and negative, about them. 

[The One Who Connects]

15 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And the thing about his Soul is an in world theory; not necessarily accurate. Kell actually lived about thirteen years as a purely cognitive being. Then he got a body... He also seems to be the core of two religions..,

It's got a lot more going for it than you'd expect. He was able to resist the call of the Beyond because of Preservation: SH Spoilers

Spoiler

Preservation saw fit to tie him to the power of the Well(Power of Preservation) for the better part of a year. He then gained even more of a connection to the Power of Preservation when he ascended(however briefly)

His soul is permeated with residual power of Preservation. Any Ruin that was added with spikes should pale in comparison because stapling essence on shouldn't have as much of a change to his soul as being permeated by that essence

[Kingsdaughter613]

Preservation definitely did something; but I don't think it replaced his soul with Preservation. For one thing Kell and others clearly make mention of his soul. Preservation certainly expanded it though. But that isn't the same as replace.

[Yata]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Preservation definitely did something; but I don't think it replaced his soul with Preservation. For one thing Kell and others clearly make mention of his soul. Preservation certainly expanded it though. But that isn't the same as replace.

Every Cognitive Shadow has his Soul replaced by raw Investiture (that mimics/copyes his original soul). It's the reason they could remain in the Realms...the new Investiture is tied to the Shardworld and the Shadow is Anchored there. This is also cause to Cognitive Shadows a lot of problem to worldhop.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Yata

[Calderis]

51 minutes ago, Yata said:

Every Cognitive Shadow has his Soul replaced by raw Investiture (that mimics/copyes his original soul). It's the reason they could remain in the Realms...the new Investiture is tied to the Shardworld and the Shadow is Anchored there. This is also cause to Cognitive Shadows a lot of problem to worldhop.

While I agree this happens, the in world dispute on this theory is whether the Cognitive shadow is still the person or a copy. 

If it is a copy, I think that it may change over time due to the nature of the investiture that caused the shadow to form. 

If it is really them though, I think the existing link to their spiritual aspect will allow them to remain themselves, despite being bound to the shardworld the investiture stems from. 

Stormlight spoilers 

Spoiler

The Heralds make me lean towards them being the real people. If being turned to Cognitive Shadows by Honor's investiture influenced them to be more aligned with the Shard, I don't think their current actions would be possible. 

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

The 'soul replaced by investiture' is an in world theory. It may or may not be accurate. Preservation definitely did something on the spiritual realm; this may or may not have replaced Kell's soul with investiture.

Can we please keep theory separate from facts?

[Yata]

The "Facts" are that regardless the Soul is original or not, it's soffused to so much Investiture to be no more the same...Also a Sliver is influenced by the Shard's residue to a degree.

Investiture in any amount influences you over time and we know Cognitive Entity are more "fluid" rather than static as a living being. Kelsier is now something like a Spren (an HumanSpren or something like that). How could remain of his original self is really debatable with a whole religion focused on him and Preservation's influence inside his Soul.

PS: I think the person would be "true" both if the Soul is original or a replica...After all thier Cognitive Aspect its the original one also if the Framework (Soul) changes. Or you count someone who recived a huge Soul Healing as another person because the regrow Soul is not the original one.

And indeed IF there is something in the Beyond, the Cognitive Aspect is the part who reaches it as the Soul's Investiture is recycled into the Realms

Edited May 26, 2017 by Yata

[Kingsdaughter613]

I am aware of all of the above. Regardless, saying the soul is replaced by investiture as a fact is misleading. It's still a theory.

I do not disagree that Kell's soul has been deeply effected by Preservation's investiture. Nor am I arguing the fact that people's perception of him will have an effect. 

I'm not sure why you keep arguing with me about 'soul replaced with investiture' being a theory; I'm not arguing the point, just the way it was presented. Nor do I understand why you feel I disagree on the other points; I've indicated several times that I agree.

This isn't the first time this has happened; I'm not certain if you are simply skimming my posts, or are failing to comprehend them. If the latter, let me know and I'll attempt to elucidate. If the former, please read them closely; the English language has many subtleties I am prone to utilizing, which may make comprehension difficult if you are unaccustomed to it. If it is a comprehension issue, let me know which words need explanation and I'll do my best to illustrate a concept using different terminology.

Because right now I just feel like you are willfully ignoring half of what I say.

[Oversleep]

11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The 'soul replaced by investiture' is an in world theory. It may or may not be accurate.

I went and searched for WoBs where Brandon is not speaking of the in-world theories. Here you go:

Quote

It is normal for a cognitive shadow to get stuck to places, because they exist through investiture it is normal for them to get tied to an area.

source

Quote

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave. Its part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. Cognitive Shadow is a very ambiguous term in the Cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but you are usually Invested with something, thats tied, and youre basically like pure Investiture then. Youre tied to the thing youre Connected to. Most of the things that youre gonna see like that, traveling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it.

source

Before you go "Aha!" on that one, I want to point out that the ambiguity of the term comes from the fact that we call Threnodian Shades Cognitive Shadows, we call ghosts like Kelsier or Leras or Stormfather Cognitive Shadows and we call Returned and Heralds Cognitive Shadows - those are all different beings and that's where the ambiguity comes from.
But the explanation is not ambiguous.

Quote

Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)

source

[Kingsdaughter613]

That's three different theories and there is more recent one where he specifically states that 'soul replaced with investiture' is a theory. (It's somewhere in the events board from one of the recent tours.) The point is it should be noted as a theory, not stated as a fact. I'm not discussing whether or not it's accurate.