Why Did Kelsier Go to South Scadrial?

[+ILuvHats]

So, why did Kelsier travel all the way to South Scadrial?  Was it really only for the purpose of saving the South Scadrians?  I mean, come on.  This is Kelsier we're talking about.  He's not exactly the most selfless person.  True, he also taxed the South Scadrians and used them to hide the bands of mourning.  But, I think Kelsier had an even deeper for going to South Scadrial.  Harmonium.

One of the most defining facts about South Scadrial is that it is the only place to get ettmetal from.  Consider that Kelsier aka the Sovereign appeared there merely 10 years after the Catacendre.  It must have been vital for him to head there.  My theory is that the spike in his eye is made of ettmetal, or at least an alloy of it.  Harmonium can apparently replicate any allomantic ability, and possibly other effects related to Investiture.  So might it not be able to replicate a conscience existing in the cognitive, and recreate it in the physical, allowing Kelsier to return?  Maybe an alloy of ettmetal and duralumin (for Connection) was used as the specific alloy enabling the ability to reconnect a cognitive shadow to the physical.  I don't know really know.  But simply using a duralumin spike doesn't seem to me like it would be able accomplish such a feat even with vast knowledge of binding points.  I think a God metal is necessary to reincarnate a cognitive shadow.

Personally it seems too much of a coincidence that Kelsier took such a great interest in South Scadrial, and so shortly after the Catacendre.  We don't know if he physically traveled there, or used some sycophant to obtain harmonium and spike it through his body.  I'm in favor of the latter, that he wasn't able to come back until he'd sent somebody to South Scadrial, acquire ettmetal, and use it hemalurgically.  Also, I'm assuming he actually had a body to spike, possibly involving a Kandra or mistwraith using his bones to reform his body.  But this seems like a plausible theory to me.

Edited May 14, 2017 by ILuvHats

[Yata]

Really unlikely. Your whole idea is a bit a paradox.

If Kelsier needs the Harmonium to "resurrect" himself (something that is strictly false, but It's meaningless for the topic), he could not go to the Southern to obtain Harmonium.

Kelsier arrived to them already physical and already with his Spike.

Notice also the Harmonium can't be' pratically used into Hemalurgy as It will explode in contact with water (and Blood)

Edited May 14, 2017 by Yata

[Obnoxiousspren]

Personally, I think he went there because they knew a lot more about how to mess with Identity and Connection. Those things definitely will help you if you want to worldhop, which I'm pretty sure was Kelsier's goal at that point. So he went there to find a way to get off planet.

[Yata]

11 minutes ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

Personally, I think he went there because they knew a lot more about how to mess with Identity and Connection. Those things definitely will help you if you want to worldhop, which I'm pretty sure was Kelsier's goal at that point. So he went there to find a way to get off planet.

They knowed nothing of this stuff. Kelsier teached this things to them directly or undirectly

[Andy92]

Maybe they're the side of Scadrial that's closer to developing instant noodles. 

[+Extesian]

I think Kelsier went there largely selflessly. His actions fit his survive! philosophy, helping the people who were vulnerable. The Basin is too perfect, as Harmony has said (they haven't developed radio or advanced farming techniques because they haven't needed to, life has been easy). Southern Scadrial is the opposite, life was extremely hard and by giving them some way to keep going, they're forced to develop technologies to make life easier (necessity is the mother of invention).

I think Kelsier went there either at Harmony's suggestion or by his own initiative to balance things for the Southern Scadrians, to have two different civilisations developing different ways for the betterment of Scadrial. I think that's why ettmetal is only found there, too give the Southern Scadrians a chance to develop technologies that rival, in different ways, the magics and technologies of the Basin.

That's not to say Kelsier wouldn't also capitalize on the opportunity by having access to his own ettmetal.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Extesian

[+ILuvHats]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

 

Really unlikely. Your whole idea is a bit a paradox.

If Kelsier needs the Harmonium to "resurrect" himself (something that is strictly false, but It's meaningless for the topic), he could not go to the Southern to obtain Harmonium.

Kelsier arrived to them already physical and already with his Spike.

Notice also the Harmonium can't be' pratically used into Hemalurgy as It will explode in contact with water (and Blood)

 

Ah.  You're right of course.  I was a bit hasty putting this together, since Id thought it seemed reasonable.  Curse my inability to realize my logical fallacies.  Jasnah would be disappointed

[Oversleep]

Well, Kelsier does have a bit of messiah complex... but apart from getting another half of the planet to worship his as a savior, he could have also had other reasons.

It's not too far-fetched to assume that Kelsier would simply want to help dying Southeners. He is, after all, a good person. If he had the knowledge and the means to do it, I assume he would do it just because it's the right thing to do.

Of course, Kelsier being Kelsier, he may have used this situation to gain other benefits. Such as more worship for him (at that point I start to wonder what such planet-wide belief does to a person in Cosmere - so far only Heralds have more of people belief). Harmonium could also be one of his goals.

But I think that events of the Secret History have the most of impact: he learned about cosmere, Shards, other planets... but most importantly his encounter with Ire. He personally witnessed powerful beings with powerful organization (they have a rusting fortress in the Cognitive Realm!). I think he wanted to push Scadrial more to be ready for those kinds of things, so Scadrial had to advance - and for that he needed Southeners and Northeners to meet; Southeners have Metallic technology and Northeners have a lot of Metalborn. Perfect synergy.
Therefore, he made Survivor's Spearhead and told Southeners very specifically not to get them (which of course they interpreted as a challenge as he knew they would). Then he probably spread some rumours about Bands of Mourning in the North - those had a harder time catching on, though (probably due to the usual rumours of the original Bands).

Now that they had met, this goal was accomplished. Technological progress will speed up.

Now... what he is up to now?

Here's some discussion about what his endgoals are:

Edited May 14, 2017 by Oversleep

[Kinnsayyy]

Maybe Ettmetal itself explodes on contact with water, but what about the stuff that is left over after Ettmetal burns? It could be used. Or maybe he found a way to separate it into lerasium and atium. I could see a lerasium / duralumin spike being used. 

 

About the fact that he would need it in order to exist anyways, maybe he got Spook or someone else to come spike his body for him, so he could come back. Then he would be resurrected in Southern Scadrial. 

[Yata]

6 hours ago, Kinnsayyy said:

Maybe Ettmetal itself explodes on contact with water, but what about the stuff that is left over after Ettmetal burns? It could be used. Or maybe he found a way to separate it into lerasium and atium. I could see a lerasium / duralumin spike being used. 

If the Ettmetal's explosion leaves Lerasium as residue. The Southern Will be full of Allomancers. This doesn't seem the case for their Metalborns' status

[+Extesian]

Just on this point @ILuvHats

Quote

My theory is that the spike in his eye is made of ettmetal, or at least an alloy of it. 

It seems not from this WoB

Quote

QUESTION

Which eye does the Sovereign have spiked? And what does the spike give?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The opposite eye that Marsh has spiked. And nothing special. More to come in Secret History 2 and 3.

He could of course have other spikes that do 'special' things but not the eye one it seems. 

[Vissy]

'Nothing special' meaning that it's just a normal hemalurgical construct, of course.

[Kinnsayyy]

10 hours ago, Yata said:

If the Ettmetal's explosion leaves Lerasium as residue. The Southern Will be full of Allomancers. This doesn't seem the case for their Metalborns' status

You have a point. But maybe kelsier knows a way to separate it and just didn't share it with the people? I mean, there's always another secret

[Calderis]

9 hours ago, Extesian said:

Just on this point @ILuvHats

It seems not from this WoB

He could of course have other spikes that do 'special' things but not the eye one it seems. 

Wait, Marsh only has one eye spiked? 

[WhiteLeeopard]

On 2017-5-14 at 2:12 PM, Oversleep said:

Well, Kelsier does have a bit of messiah complex... but apart from getting another half of the planet to worship his as a savior, he could have also had other reasons.

It's not too far-fetched to assume that Kelsier would simply want to help dying Southeners. He is, after all, a good person. If he had the knowledge and the means to do it, I assume he would do it just because it's the right thing to do.

Of course, Kelsier being Kelsier, he may have used this situation to gain other benefits. Such as more worship for him (at that point I start to wonder what such planet-wide belief does to a person in Cosmere - so far only Heralds have more of people belief). Harmonium could also be one of his goals.

But I think that events of the Secret History have the most of impact: he learned about cosmere, Shards, other planets... but most importantly his encounter with Ire. He personally witnessed powerful beings with powerful organization (they have a rusting fortress in the Cognitive Realm!). I think he wanted to push Scadrial more to be ready for those kinds of things, so Scadrial had to advance - and for that he needed Southeners and Northeners to meet; Southeners have Metallic technology and Northeners have a lot of Metalborn. Perfect synergy.
Therefore, he made Survivor's Spearhead and told Southeners very specifically not to get them (which of course they interpreted as a challenge as he knew they would). Then he probably spread some rumours about Bands of Mourning in the North - those had a harder time catching on, though (probably due to the usual rumours of the original Bands).

Now that they had met, this goal was accomplished. Technological progress will speed up.

 

I read this thread and found it really interesting. But then I couldn't help thinking of what you said (bold part). Would most readers agree that Kelsier is a good person? I do believe he is, yet many past threads and WoBs talk of how he would be a villain in many other setups, how he is a sociopath, etc. What is the general view on this?

Also, I do not want to hijack this thread, but I'm also not sure if this would warrant a new thread or if it is included in this discussion. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[WhiteLeeopard]

43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Wait, Marsh only has one eye spiked? 

I think he counts as just having one eye spiked in Era 2 because Vin removed one of his spikes in the last fight she had with the inquisitors. Even if he put it back wouldn't have been out of his body weaken the hemalurgy charge? Another option is that there was some mistake in the wording since it has been remarked that Marsh has a lot of scarring on one eye. 

Sorry for the double post! Had already written my previous reply when I saw this, and didn't know how to put them together with 2 quotes.

[The One Who Connects]

54 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Wait, Marsh only has one eye spiked? 

As White Leeopard said, Vin pulled one of his out right before her Ascension(which prevented her from pulling the other one), and it's a matter of moderate debate whether he put it back in. There was a discussion ..somewhere that he might be using a fake one to cover the hole in his head, but I cannot find it at the moment

[Oversleep]

59 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

As White Leeopard said, Vin pulled one of his out right before her Ascension(which prevented her from pulling the other one), and it's a matter of moderate debate whether he put it back in. There was a discussion ..somewhere that he might be using a fake one to cover the hole in his head, but I cannot find it at the moment

Unlikely since Marsh has already taken some spikes from dead Inquisitors; why not use a real spike in his eye (although he may have just took his back).

Edited May 15, 2017 by Oversleep

[+Extesian]

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As White Leeopard said, Vin pulled one of his out right before her Ascension(which prevented her from pulling the other one), and it's a matter of moderate debate whether he put it back in. There was a discussion ..somewhere that he might be using a fake one to cover the hole in his head, but I cannot find it at the moment

Huh, interesting. This whole time my head-canon was that he had one eye spike so that WoB never sounded strange to me. But here's his appearance in Alloy of Law

Quote

The man was well over six feet tall, and the enveloping robe gave him an ominous appearance. He brought up pale hands and took down his hood, exposing a shaved head and a face that was tattooed around the eyes in an intricate pattern. Driven into those eyes, point-first, were what looked like a pair of thick railroad spikes. One of the eye sockets was deformed, as if it had been crushed, long-healed scars and bony ridges under the skin marring the tattoos.

Does make that WoB kinda confusing unless one is fake, which would also be quite strange. 

[Jazzy Kandra]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

Does make that WoB kinda confusing unless one is fake, which would also be quite strange. 

Wayne does a good approximate of Marsh in Bands with fake spikes, so, if Marsh doesn't appear as Ironeyes all that often...it might be that he fakes it. Having one eye is better than none, I guess. Or, even funnier, sometimes it's Marsh, but other times it's Kelsier pretending to be Marsh...

[Kingsdaughter613]

Kell totally does that. Marsh gets rather irritated when he does - which may be why Kell does it...

@WhiteLeeopard I know what Brandon says... and Kell STILL fails the actual test! (The Hare PCLR, for anyone who is curious.) 

Working with that, Kell can still be a psychopath and a good person. There are different types of psychopathy (which is not currently a disorder; Harr believes it should be.)  Kell has the core personality traits of a psychopath (factor A), but is missing many of the behaviors (factor B). Many people can be 'psychopaths' and live normal lives. The most important factor for Kelsier is that he WANTS to do good. He knows he isn't naturally a good person, and he tries to be better despite that. Which has the end result of making him a good person, even if his personality would argue otherwise.

Edit: I should point out that my test results are skewed due to the 'revocation of conditional parole.' It's not applicable (as it didn't happen) so always gets a zero. Never mind that Kell would totally do that if it DID come up... but it hasn't, so still zero. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Kingsdaughter613

[Jazzy Kandra]

7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

@WhiteLeeopard I know what Brandon says... and Kell STILL fails the actual test! (The Hare PCLR, for anyone who is curious.) 

Working with that, Kell can still be a psychopath and a good person. There are different types of psychopathy (which is not currently a disorder; Harr believes it should be.)  Kell has the core personality traits of a psychopath (factor A), but is missing many of the behaviors (factor B). Many people can be 'psychopaths' and live normal lives. The most important factor for Kelsier is that he WANTS to do good. He knows he isn't naturally a good person, and he tries to be better despite that. Which has the end result of making him a good person, even if his personality would argue otherwise.

Edit: I should point out that my test results are skewed due to the 'revocation of conditional parole.' It's not applicable (as it didn't happen) so always gets a zero. Never mind that Kell would totally do that if it DID come up... but it hasn't, so still zero. 

I'll be honest, if Brandon hadn't said he was a psychopath, I wouldn't have considered it a possibility. Even with that WoB, I'm still iffy about it and I don't particularly like it. It still feels a lot more like a complex form of PTSD (made even more complex by Era 1-snapping) than psychopathy to me. Partially because he doesn't have most of the behaviors, also he didn't seem to really have the childhood misbehavior things either. He never hurt/bullied Marsh as a kid and he can't imagine abusing his sibling, I doubt that Kelsier would harm small animals, and, finally, playing card tricks on others as a kid really doesn't count... Plus, he doesn't always score that high on all the core personality traits, either. In other words, you're right, I think, even without "revocation of conditional parole" (heck though, I'm not sure he would even break that...Kelsier would just wait for his parole to end then go back to being a thief...hehe).

[Oversleep]

@Kandra-in-disguise, I've seen argument raised that Kelsier feels no remorse about killing - he even enjoys slaughtering nobles. What would that make him? He clearly has empathy as his relationships show but this thing is not something you'd find in an average person.

[WhiteLeeopard]

The way I used to think about him is that Kelsier was broken deep inside. He went through traumatic events, he lived in a horrible world, he saw terrible things, and the pits were the last straw that broke him so much he would never be a normal person in any sense. The reason why I raised the question is because the label psycopath has always bothered me when it comes to him. He is absolutely ruthless and uses people as if they are pieces in a chess game, but his final goal is always good. However, that been said I couldn't really see him as a true villain, a huge problem yes, but not an actual villain.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Psychopath is a misleading term. It's not recognized by the DSM and can be used to describe:

A: someone lacking or having limited empathy. This type of person can be law abiding and have stable relationships, but may view others as tools and think nothing of using them. Such a person might be a ruthless business man, a callous physician or, yes, a con artist. Kell fits this description of psychopathy, and I believe that this is the type Brandon was mainly speaking of. Note that there is nothing stopping these individuals from doing or intending guilt.

B: Someone who enjoys inflicting pain on others. These people are often, in conjunction with one, the people psychopath is most often associated with. To this I'll answer with a Talmudic paraphrase: 'if a person delights in spilling blood he can be a mohel (person who performs circumcision) an animal slaughterer, or a murderer'. In other words, just because you enjoy seeing or spilling blood doesn't make you a horrible person. Kelsier does fit into this category as he does enjoy killing. He makes sure to control it though, so not a problem.

C: someone who engages in rampant, repetitive, and violent, destructive criminal behavior. Well... considering the final Empire that applies to everyone on the crew... hmm... All kidding aside, I don't actually feel Kell falls into this category, due to the 'violent' and 'destructive' aspects of it. In a more typical society he'd probably be a non violent con artist.

D: diminished or lacking a sense of responsibilty; diminished or lacking regard for consequences; diminished or lacking feelings of guilt. I put these together as they are all variants on a theme. Kelsier falls into this category by nature, but I think he's learned to feel those things. The difference between most people and this kind of 'psychopath' is that they have to learn this and most people don't. Again, nothing here means they will do bad things.

E: someone who continually commits violent sexual offenses with no capacity for rehabilitation. Definitely does not apply to Kell! It is one of the more common things found in criminal psychopaths.

F: someone with ASPD. I don't think Kell has this; I think he's more likely to have NPD. He has some elements of ASPD, but there is quite a bit of overlap.

As you can see 'psycopath' has many different possible meanings and only three of the above actually require criminal activity. Some do apply to Kell; some don't. As I am of the opinion that psychopathy is inborn, I feel that if it is ever added to the DSM the criminal qualifications should be removed. Maybe make it comorbid with ASPD (which is what we usually diagnose psychopaths as having.)

Or, in other words, depending on your definition you can have a psychopath be a good person.