Atium

[Kinnsayyy]

Is it possible that the Atium we see in the original trilogy is really an alloy of Atium and Electrum? Since we know we that alloys of lerasium can create mistings of each metal. 

I think it's weird that atium just gives access to something that's almost already a metal. Electrum shows your future self, but atium just shows someone else's future self? That seems too basic for a GOD METAL to do. And brandon has said we don't fully understand what atium can do... 

[The Sovereign]

I highly doubt it. 

Quote

Electrum shows your future self, but atium just shows someone else's future self? That seems too basic for a GOD METAL to do. And brandon has said we don't fully understand what atium can do... 

I suspect that seeing the future isn't Atium's effect at all, rather it is a side effect of it. Atium allows you to partially slide into the Spiritual Realm and gives you the capacity to comprehend what you are seeing. 

A couple of relevent WoBs:

 

Quote

 

SYLOS (15 OCTOBER 2008)

I was happy when Elend finally burned duralumin with atium. I was holding my breath hoping that someone would eventually do it. However we didn't really get any info as to what Elend experienced. Does a duralumin-enhanced atium burn allow a person to see significantly farther into the future? If so, being that Elend's army was dying all around him did he get to see into the afterlife? Also if you could tell us what he saw that would be awesome. Did something he saw make him not want to avoid Marshes strike?

On a similar note if someone burned electrum with duralumin would they get to see significantly into their own future?

BRANDON SANDERSON (16 OCTOBER 2008)

There is much here that I can't say, but I'll give as much as I can. Elend saw Preservation's ultimate plan, and Elend's own part in it. What he saw made him realize he didn't want to kill Marsh, and that his own death would actually help save the world. Like a master chess player, he suddenly saw and understand every possible move his enemy could make. He saw that Ruin was check-mated, because there was one thing that Ruin was not willing to do. Something that both Elend and Vin could do, if needed. And it's what they did.

So, in answer to your question, Elend stayed his hand. This is one of the reasons why I changed my mind and decided that Marsh had to live through the end of the book. Elend spared him; I needed to too.

TAGS

mistborn, marsh, elend, vin, ruin, preservation, duralumin, atium, allomancy, future sight, hero of ages,

 

 

 

Quote

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 2015

Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

ARGENT

Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it...

ARGENT

As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No...

QUESTION

As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it.

BRANDON SANDERSON

No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm.

ARGENT

Oh, that's what happens there.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people ascend with the powers and dip into the SpiritualRealm for a little bit.

 

 

[The One Who Connects]

The Atium was mined from the Pits of Hathsin, above Ruin's Shardpool, by the Lord Ruler's orders. It's almost certainly just normal Atium.

13 minutes ago, Kinnsayyy said:

Electrum shows your future self, but Atium just shows someone else's future self?

I shall refer you to the entire Enhancement section of the Allomantic Table. Chromium and Nicrosil are quite literally Aluminum and Duralumin on other people.

14 minutes ago, Kinnsayyy said:

And Brandon has said we don't fully understand what Atium can do... 

The same can be said for Lerasium, for a completely different reason. The God metals have 2 sides to the Coin that is burning: an Allomantic effect and a Side effect.

Lerasium's Allomantic effect is unknown, and it's side effect is turning people into Mistings/Mistborn
Atium appears to be exactly the opposite, it's Allomantic effect is a glimpse into the Spiritual Realm, and it's side effect is unknown.

[Kinnsayyy]

I just thought it might have been possible since the obligators tampered with the atium before it was given to the general public (at the end of hero of ages it says the obligators took the atium out of the geods in secret rooms before shipping them to luthadel). There was just time in between for something to have happened

[ErikModi]

There some Wild Mass Guessing over on TvTropes that, because Allomancy is Preservation's power, Preservation "snuck" Atium into Allomancy and gave it a ridiculously useful power so people would have an incentive to burn it, thus continually depriving Ruin of his "body."  It's kind of the only thing that bugs me about Wax and Wayne:  Cool as speed bubbles are, they don't quite make sense in the Allomancy tables as "replacements" Atium and Malatium.  Gold and Electrum no longer quite "gel" with the other "temporal metals," their effects are too different.

Then again, the Zinc/Brass/Copper/Bronze mental quartet doesn't really relate to each other across pairs, so maybe I'm overthinking this.

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, ErikModi said:

Gold and Electrum no longer quite "gel" with the other "temporal metals," their effects are too different. [..] maybe I'm overthinking this.

I shall also refer you to the Enhancement Quadrant of the Allomantic Table. It's the only section where the effects are not different.

I wouldn't say you are overthinking it so much as seeing different things as the norm to compare with (which is where half of the theories on here come from, so it's fine)

[ErikModi]

Yeah, Iron/Steel/Tin/Pewter are completely different across pairs (and Tin/Pewter are even completely different from each other), so there's that.

Hmm, come to think of it:

Iron/Steel (External Physical): Identical and opposite effects (see metal, Pull/Push metal)

Tin/Pewter (Internal Physical): Completely different effects (Enhance Senses, Enhance Physicality)

Zinc/Brass (External Mental):  Identical and opposite effects (Riot/Soothe emotions)

Copper/Bronze (Internal Mental):  Vaguely related effects (Detect Allomancy, resist Copper detection in an area and resist Zinc/Brass against yourself)

It appears Enhancement is the only category where the powers have the exact same effects Internal/External and opposite effects for Push/Pull, and Temporal is the only category where they're opposite Push/Pull but unrelated between Internal/External.

I can't help but feel I'm on the verge of something big here, but rusted if I know what it is. . . 

[skaa]

I have an old abandoned theory that is basically the same as yours, @Kinnsayyy. People didn't like it very much.

Right now I still think there's a connection between atium and electrum, though my conclusions have changed somewhat. Aluminum and chromium being opposites of each other is a common counter-argument, but chromium doesn't alloy with other Allomantic metals while atium alloys with all of them, so it's a bit of an apples to oranges thing.

The main conundrum is this: If Atium Allomancy is an inversion of Electrum Allomancy in a self-others axis, and Atium-Gold (a.k.a. Malatium) is an inversion of Gold in the same self-others axis, then is it possible that all atium alloys have this self-others inversion? If we say no, then what is the pattern followed by atium alloys? If we say yes, then Atium-Electrum ought to be a self-others inversion of Electrum, which is exactly the same as Atium.

Edited May 10, 2017 by skaa

[Yata]

Much more the Atium's economy was One of TFE's core from the beginning. While the Electrum as Allomantic metal was discovered only later (by TLR's researcher).

On another note with the Metallurgic knowledge Scadrial had. They Will discover of the Alloy nature in a thousand of years.

There are also others logical and pratical problems but I think this is already enough

[Kinnsayyy]

9 hours ago, skaa said:

I have an old abandoned theory that is basically the same as yours, @Kinnsayyy. People didn't like it very much.

If we both have the same theory separate from each other, then maybe there actually is something there. 

14 hours ago, ErikModi said:

Yeah, Iron/Steel/Tin/Pewter are completely different across pairs (and Tin/Pewter are even completely different from each other)

In Hero of Ages, spook addresses this topic. He says that at first he thinks that they aren't related, however whenever he used them both together he saw they complemented each other. The tin enhanced his senses and the pewter dulled them. 

Spoiler

That what why after he was spiked he was able to tolerate his savantism for much longer. 

 

8 hours ago, Yata said:

Much more the Atium's economy was One of TFE's core from the beginning. While the Electrum as Allomantic metal was discovered only later (by TLR's researcher).

Where does it say that electrum was discovered after atium? I know that he hid it from the general public, but that doesn't mean he didn't know about it. Just that he didn't want others to. It would make sense that if he knew it from the beginning, he would hide it. It makes atium near pointless and would drastically affect his economy if it was widespread. Also, it makes sense he would know ALL of the metals from the beginning, since he touched the power of Preservation. After all, he did learn where all the bind points for hemalurgy just from his time in the power, and they aren't even native to the power (although this was probably due to Ruins influence)

[Weltall]

Another counter to the 'electrum alloy' idea: All the metal held in the Trust produced exactly the same effect we've seen in all prior uses of atium in the series. The kandra had no reason to go around alloying the stuff with electrum or any other metal when they were just sitting on it to keep it away from Ruin and nobody acts as though it behaves any differently when used. Not to mention that the entire idea of the atium Mistings would be very screwy if Preservation actually had to make them atium-electrum-alloy Mistings in order to make the stuff burnable by non-Mistborn....

[Kinnsayyy]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Another counter to the 'electrum alloy' idea: All the metal held in the Trust produced exactly the same effect we've seen in all prior uses of atium in the series. The kandra had no reason to go around alloying the stuff with electrum or any other metal when they were just sitting on it to keep it away from Ruin and nobody acts as though it behaves any differently when used. Not to mention that the entire idea of the atium Mistings would be very screwy if Preservation actually had to make them atium-electrum-alloy Mistings in order to make the stuff burnable by non-Mistborn....

I thought the atium was processed before it went to the kandra? If that's the case then Preservation could have simply done that so that it would be easier to understand. I mean he did neglect to include metals that were impossible to create at the time (bendalloy and cadmium). So if he changed that then he easily could have changed it for the atium.

[Yata]

2 hours ago, Kinnsayyy said:

Where does it say that electrum was discovered after atium? I know that he hid it from the general public, but that doesn't mean he didn't know about it. Just that he didn't want others to. It would make sense that if he knew it from the beginning, he would hide it. It makes atium near pointless and would drastically affect his economy if it was widespread. Also, it makes sense he would know ALL of the metals from the beginning, since he touched the power of Preservation. After all, he did learn where all the bind points for hemalurgy just from his time in the power, and they aren't even native to the power (although this was probably due to Ruins influence)

Surelly Rashek knowed all the Allomantic effects...but if he know the actual metals and much more the ratio for the alloy isn't sure. You may see from the message he left in the stores. That He putted people to study and research the "new metals"...So maybe he didn't know the details or simply his complete knowledge fade away from him after the Ascension's end

On another note, the Atium as we saw them in the trilogy has also (of course) Feruchemical and Hemaluric powers. Or do you think also them are effect of the Atium-Electrum alloy ? I mean the Feruchemical one could be debatable (also if it seems purelly in line with Ruin and decay) but the Hemalurgic one is actually the "I could steal everything" that is really unlikely to be an Alloy Effect.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Yata

[Kinnsayyy]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Surelly Rashek knowed all the Allomantic effects...but if he know the actual metals and much more the ratio for the alloy isn't sure. You may see from the message he left in the stores. That He putted people to study and research the "new metals"...So maybe he didn't know the details or simply his complete knowledge fade away from him after the Ascension's end

On another note, the Atium as we saw them in the trilogy has also (of course) Feruchemical and Hemaluric powers. Or do you think also them are effect of the Atium-Electrum alloy ? I mean the Feruchemical one could be debatable (also if it seems purelly in line with Ruin and decay) but the Hemalurgic one is actually the "I could steal everything" that is really unlikely to be an Alloy Effect.

The Hemalurgy would be the major problem here. It's possible, though not that likely, that the alloy of Atium electrum stores age. However, the likelihood of the alloy being able to steal any attribute is very low. 

Maybe not though. Maybe since it has a PART of Ruin in it, and since Hemalurgy is Ruins, then anything with atium in it can steal anything. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

If, and this is an if, Atium electrum Alloy has the same effect as Atium, it's possible that when Preservation added it to the metals chart he 'locked' it into that, possibly because the other addition was malatium and it was necessary due to how the metals work. (Push/Pull and Internal/External) This would only effect Allomancy (the only place Preservation could enact the switch) and not Hemalurgy or Feruchemy. It would also mean that Atium should actually do something else in allomancy, and does now that Saze has put things back to the way they were. You could probably still use Atium for whatever it originally did, but you would need to know what that was and no one does... It would make a funny sort of sense actually. Atium should really be the opposing compliment of Lerasium when you think about it.

Since the above requires several theories to be accurate, I don't have much faith in it. But if anyone wants to ask Brandon about it, feel free!

[Pagerunner]

I'll just throw my two cents in real quick. We've been assuming that malatium does something that atium cannot. With good reason; other than Brandon's cryptic comments that we don't understand atium's full potential, it would appear that malatium is a Pushing/Pulling pair with atium.

But, just like an atium spike can be used for any Hemalurgy (even though they only knew how to steal temporal Allomancy), maybe the full use of atium includes malatium's ability? Or how lerasium makes a full Mistborn, but alloys make a specialized version, a Misting?

Atium and lerasium may both be Spiritual metals; the former External, the latter Internal. Atium looks at Connection or other properties, while lerasium lets you modify your own Spiritweb. They would each have a lot of functionality, but you would need to know exactly what you're doing. 

Alloys would have a more limited application, for those who aren't Realmatically savvy enough to use atium to its fullest. So, alloy it with gold, you only get to look at someone else's historical Connection. What if atium could accomplish the powers of any of its alloys, though? The only one people know of is the atium/electrum power, so that's all they ever use it for?

That's how I reconcile a clear connection between atium and electrum, with atium's place as a god metal. That atium is behaving as its own alloy, since no one knows any better.

[Erandeni]

9 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

maybe the full use of atium includes malatium's ability?

This seem to agree with you:

Secret history Spoiler:

Spoiler

Elend Venture raised his hand, and then exploded with light. Lines of white scattered from him in all directions, lines that drilled through all things. Lines that Connected him to Kelsier, to the future, and to the past.

He’s seeing it fully, Kelsier thought. That place between moments.

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Idealistic Mistborn
grammar

[Kingsdaughter613]

So maybe my idea isn't totally crazy... upvotes to both of you!

[windrunningmistborn]

On 10/05/2017 at 9:06 AM, ErikModi said:

Yeah, Iron/Steel/Tin/Pewter are completely different across pairs (and Tin/Pewter are even completely different from each other), so there's that.

Hmm, come to think of it:

Iron/Steel (External Physical): Identical and opposite effects (see metal, Pull/Push metal)

Tin/Pewter (Internal Physical): Completely different effects (Enhance Senses, Enhance Physicality)

Zinc/Brass (External Mental):  Identical and opposite effects (Riot/Soothe emotions)

Copper/Bronze (Internal Mental):  Vaguely related effects (Detect Allomancy, resist Copper detection in an area and resist Zinc/Brass against yourself)

It appears Enhancement is the only category where the powers have the exact same effects Internal/External and opposite effects for Push/Pull, and Temporal is the only category where they're opposite Push/Pull but unrelated between Internal/External.

I can't help but feel I'm on the verge of something big here, but rusted if I know what it is. . . 

 

The tin/pewter opposition makes sense. There is a physical-cognitive axis that you are pushing and pulling yourself along. Pewter pulls you more into the physical realm, tin pulls you more into the cognitive realm.

You are an entity that exists in all three realms at once, and so your energy/investiture is spread across those realms too. When you pull your existence more into the physical realm, you become more powerful/energetic there, which translates into increased strength. Equally, presence in the cognitive realm gives you increased awareness of everything around you. This can even go so far that you can "see" when your vision is completely obscured, like old Lestibournes.

[Yata]

I was thinking.

in "The Eleventh Metal" short-story we saw a Mistborn researcher try to find new allomantic metals. He discovered the Malatium (that with your idea would be Atium - Electrum + Gold) and he call it the eleventh metal...But to get Malatium he would need before to turn the Alloy into pure metal...this metal would be Allomantically avaliable so it would be the 11th metal and the malatium the 12th metal.

Also Sazed spoke of the Atium as something 100% Ruin rather than 50%-50%....If the Atium is an alloy of the true Ruin's godmetal and Electrum. The Atium would be not pure Ruin

[Weltall]

On 5/17/2017 at 3:37 PM, Idealistic Mistborn said:

This seem to agree with you:

Secret history Spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

Elend Venture raised his hand, and then exploded with light. Lines of white scattered from him in all directions, lines that drilled through all things. Lines that Connected him to Kelsier, to the future, and to the past.

He’s seeing it fully, Kelsier thought. That place between moments.

 

We know that duralumin-boosted atium gives you a peek into the Spiritual Realm, or rather a less-limited one than what atium does normally. And there is no 'time' in the Spiritual so that's not anything outstanding from the perspective of this theory.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Weltall

[Steeldancer]

On 5/17/2017 at 9:06 AM, Pagerunner said:

I'll just throw my two cents in real quick. We've been assuming that malatium does something that atium cannot. With good reason; other than Brandon's cryptic comments that we don't understand atium's full potential, it would appear that malatium is a Pushing/Pulling pair with atium.

But, just like an atium spike can be used for any Hemalurgy (even though they only knew how to steal temporal Allomancy), maybe the full use of atium includes malatium's ability? Or how lerasium makes a full Mistborn, but alloys make a specialized version, a Misting?

Atium and lerasium may both be Spiritual metals; the former External, the latter Internal. Atium looks at Connection or other properties, while lerasium lets you modify your own Spiritweb. They would each have a lot of functionality, but you would need to know exactly what you're doing. 

Alloys would have a more limited application, for those who aren't Realmatically savvy enough to use atium to its fullest. So, alloy it with gold, you only get to look at someone else's historical Connection. What if atium could accomplish the powers of any of its alloys, though? The only one people know of is the atium/electrum power, so that's all they ever use it for?

That's how I reconcile a clear connection between atium and electrum, with atium's place as a god metal. That atium is behaving as its own alloy, since no one knows any better.

That makes sense... I would give you an upvote if I had any left. Again.