The Dichotomy of Villains

[Radiant_Jaeger]

The Radiants have begun their order. So far we have 5 who we know have sworn there oaths.

But is there an actual counter to each hero in our villains? The rule is that they're motivations are similar to our heros but uniquely twisted.

 

For Dalinar we have Taravangian who seeks to Unite in the most twisted way possible and also gathers visions granted by a higher power (Moelach in his case) He unites BY destroying, therefore anti bond smith

For Kaladin we have Moash, someone who has also had family killed by the light eyes but seeks to kill those he hates, breaks his word to protect the Kholin family, and ACCEPTED shards where Kaladin did not. It's these two that are the clearest.

As for Jasnah I would have to say one of the worldhopping ghost bloods since in theory she too can(has?) world hopp. Mraize perhaps but it seems flimsy I think each character will have a Rosharin counter.

Then of course there is Eshonai and her sister, one who sought peace, vs one who did not, one who was tricked by the other to embrace Odium. While her sister embraced it long before.

Perhaps it is not as cut and dry as this, but it works well so far,

im not sure about Shallan, Renarin, or Lift yet.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[Demiandre]

Interesting. It really works well for me about Dalinar, and Moash is a really good candidate. I don't know why, but Eshonai and her sister, while well associated, seems too obvious

Jasnah would be strictly opposed to anything regarding tampering/secret keeping, but it would be her "ambition" IMO, not something to do with one of the Orders. I would say then that it relates to either the Hierocracy or as you mention a secret organization with dubious agenda. No clue about anyone in particular... Maybe one that doesn't want anything to change (in relation to soulcasting I mean, if you want to link that to the Orders. I would then indeed suggest the Hierocracy)

For Lift, I would say that Nale is a nice counterpart. He is a dutiful and rigid person, with seemingly no sympathy for other people, whereas Lift is becoming more and more empathetic and caring. And acting crazily

For Renarin and Shallan, I wonder too. I'm thinking but not finding any lead or idea

[Radiant_Jaeger]

I don't think Nale works for Lift, since

Spoiler

He's already been redeemed by her in Edgedancer

So I think she will gain one as we go through the story, probably somebody who hates food *Shudders in horror at the very thought of such an abomination*

[Demiandre]

I thought the same thing, but why not put the characters in conflict with their nemesis during their trials ? Why wait the latter books, when such a good opportunity arise to create a good and meaningful conflict ? A conflict doesn't mean the end of an arc.

Spoiler

After all, Nale is not totally redeemed. He still needs to hear the truth of it all. There is a case of insanity with all Heralds, who knows what could happen next ?

There could be other confrontations and clashes, if needed. After all, it's not finished between Kaladin and Moash.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

1 hour ago, Demiandre said:

I thought the same thing, but why not put the characters in conflict with their nemesis during their trials ? Why wait the latter books, when such a good opportunity arise to create a good and meaningful conflict ? A conflict doesn't mean the end of an arc.

  Hide contents

After all, Nale is not totally redeemed. He still needs to hear the truth of it all. There is a case of insanity with all Heralds, who knows what could happen next ?

There could be other confrontations and clashes, if needed. After all, it's not finished between Kaladin and Moash.

And it's barely even begun between Dalinar and Taravangian. That's one discussion in a dark room with ominous music going that I would LOVE to hear! I see what you mean about Nale.

[Krandacth]

I would pair Jasnah with Amaram:

* Both researching ancient times, Urithiru, etc.

* A man who can write vs a woman who can fight (if only to some extent in both cases).

* Athiest vs religious fanatic.

  - Leads to "trying to prevent a Desolation" vs "trying to start one".

We only haven't seen conflict here because they have had continents separating them for the entirety of the story so far (except the WoR prologue where they don't really interact).

Edited September 25, 2017 by Krandacth
The notifications kept bringing the bad grammar to my attention, and it was driving me mad!

[Radiant_Jaeger]

1 hour ago, Krandacth said:

I would pair Jasnah with Amaram:

* Both researching ancient times, Urithiru, etc.

* A man who can write vs a woman who can fight (if only to some extent in both cases).

* Athiest vs religious fanatic.

  - Leads to "trying to prevent a Desolation" vs "trying to start one".

We only haven't seen conflict here because they have had continents separating for the entirety of the story so far (except the WoR prologue where they don't really interact).

And not to infer anything but this could be the source of Jasnah's disdain for romantic entanglements. We know she made Amaram uncomfortable and that Gavilar wanted them to be wed. Perhaps he tried something too forward and she freaking crushed him. I like this! So we have

Dalinar vs Taravangian

Kaladin vs Moash

Jasnah vs Amaram

Eshonai vs Veril

Shallan Lift and Renarin are left!

[Betrail]

Why not take two out at once?

Renarin vs shallan

One reveals truth vs one that will hide truth

Shallan also seems much more outspoken than renarin is.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

Diabolical because what if Renarin is the "traitor among them" that Taravangian spoke of and Glys is actually a void spren incognito

[Toaster Retribution]

2 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Diabolical because what if Renarin is the "traitor among them" that Taravangian spoke of and Glys is actually a void spren incognito

There has been theories of similar things, and it seems quite plausible. 

I though the traitor among them line had to do with the Unmade though, but I dont remember the exactly where it was, so I cant say for sure.

Nice catch about these villains/antagonists too! Since there are a lot of Secret Society people, who are potential villains (Thaidakar, Mraize, Iyatil, Restares) I can say that we will probably get our Shallan villain from them.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

@Chull #445 I am not sure about the secret society peeps since most are 

Spoiler

World hopping ne'er do wells

I hate to say it but Adolin as her villain maybe (sorry @maxal lol) Though his motives don't align. Perhaps it is Renarin.. but I need more evidence! Curse my lack of WoB knowledge!

[thegatorgirl00]

6 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

@Chull #445 I am not sure about the secret society peeps since most are 

  Reveal hidden contents

World hopping ne'er do wells

I hate to say it but Adolin as her villain maybe (sorry @maxal lol) Though his motives don't align. Perhaps it is Renarin.. but I need more evidence! Curse my lack of WoB knowledge!

Actually, I'd add Adolin to the hero list and put him against Sadeas. I know Adolin isn't technically a 'main' character, but he and Sadeas work well for this. Especially if you consider the end of WoR as the culmination of their antagonism. 

• Sadeas was the one who dueled Yenev for Gavilar, and Adolin planned to duel Sadeas for Dalinar
• Sadeas pretends to be loyal but wants power, Adolin is loyal and doesn't want to gain power due to his father abdicating
• Sadeas views people as tools to be used, Adolin is one of the most genuinely caring lighteyes we've seen

There are probably others I'm not thinking of right now. 

I don't think we know enough about Renarin's powers and motives to come up with one for him yet. For Shallan, I'm leaning towards one of the secret society members. 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

@thegatorgirl00 Interesting! But shouldn't they be Peers as well? That seems like a common theme too.. And every secret society member of the ghostbloods we've seen (alive) 

Spoiler

Are world hoppers

So I don't think we've seen hers yet

[Farnsworth]

On the one hand, this fits in with the Vorin idea of symmetry. On the other had. I don't know if I would like this to play out. Brandon has already said that the Shards aren't necessarily good or evul, and I think the same holds true for the characters. Szeth for example, isn't really good or evil. I am hoping that more characters are like this, and keep the Cosmere awesome!

[Radiant_Jaeger]

2 hours ago, Figberts said:

On the one hand, this fits in with the Vorin idea of symmetry. On the other had. I don't know if I would like this to play out. Brandon has already said that the Shards aren't necessarily good or evul, and I think the same holds true for the characters. Szeth for example, isn't really good or evil. I am hoping that more characters are like this, and keep the Cosmere awesome!

Well yeah, but I would still hold that these are our prime antagonists.. if not villains

[Stormrunner1730]

I really like this idea, but I think it holds true for some characters, but not others due to the natures of the difference characters and their arcs/struggles.  Brandon also doesn't often make things that black and white for this type of thing.

Dalinar/Taravangian is perfect since they have directly contrasting agendas.  Or rather their agendas will collide since both of their philosophies cannot survive without at least one of them budging slightly.

I don't think Jasnah will really have a direct antagonist (although I like the Amaram idea).  Since her quest is more nebulous and without a specific goal besides "save the world", I see her antagonists as more the different secret societies as a whole (Ghostbloods, Sons of Honor).  

Eshonai's antagonist is 100% Venli.

Kaladin's is almost himself and his view of lighteyes more than anything else.  Although I would argue that Amaram/Adolin/Roshone are all antagonists at certain points (Sadeas too, but less directly).  Szeth isn't really a personal antagonist of his so much as an opponent to help create one of my favorite fight scenes in any fictional story I've ever read haha.

Shallan's was Tyn at one point, arguably Jasnah in WOK (their differing philosophies, ets.  Plus Shallan's goal for the first half of the book is to steal from Jasnah).  But in general I more see Shallan's antagonists more along the lines of Jasnah (less clearly defined because of the nature of her work/Order)

So ultimately I think it really depends on the character.  Most characters in SA have different antagonists at differing times depending on their current goal.  There are exceptions to this (Dalinar/Taravangian, Venli/Eshonai), but I would be careful about simplifying a character's obstacles to a single person/entity (Excluding Shards haha).  I mostly say that because Brandon is very careful to not have absolute moral labels such as "good" or "evil" assigned to most characters in his stories.  That being said, obviously you could totally look at a character from a certain perspective and show that they have a specific antagonist in a specific instance (i.e. Moash for Kaladin at the end of WOR, etc.)   

[Hero-of-Pages]

I personally think Mraize works better as an antagonist for Shallan. Everyone else has an antagonist they know to some extent, who is similar yet different.

[Toaster Retribution]

If we are going for the dichotomy antagonists, then either Mraize or Iyatil is Shallans antagonist. Hopefully Mraize. Sorry all Iyatil fans, but Mraize with his scarred face, white suit and blowgun is so much cooler than Iyatil.

[Siaun Sanche]

On 4/27/2017 at 7:03 PM, Farnsworth said:

Szeth for example, isn't really good or evil.

Wait, Szeth isn't evil? He's murdered a whole bunch of innocent people.

[Stormrunner1730]

18 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

Wait, Szeth isn't evil? He's murdered a whole bunch of innocent people.

It wasn't his choice to murder those people (or at least he perceived it as not being his choice).  His intentions were to follow his code/religion (the only thing keeping him sane/justifying his continued existence in his eyes).  He was bound to obey the owner of his Oathstone by his honor (which is incidentally what makes him a great Radiant candidate; or more specifically Skybreaker candidate).  Therefore he only saw himself as a tool.  His internal monologues during his POVs are all about how he thinks he's a monster for what he's doing.  Granted you could argue that he killed all of those people regardless.  But Szeth's intentions weren't evil.  In other words, Szeth knew what he was doing was wrong, but his intent was not inherently evil, as he was morally against his own actions. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Stormrunner1730

[Calderis]

19 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

Wait, Szeth isn't evil? He's murdered a whole bunch of innocent people.

According to the herald of Justice, he's a Paragon of virtue. 

@Stormrunner1730's comments are all spot on as well.

The moment Szeth was able to process for a fact, that he never should have been a Truthless, and that he was truly responsible for all of the acts he'd committed he chose to die. 

I think that speaks volumes about his level of remorse. 

[CaptainRyan]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

The moment Szeth was able to process for a fact, that he never should have been a Truthless, and that he was truly responsible for all of the acts he'd committed he chose to die. 

I think that speaks volumes about his level of remorse. 

Well said. Szeth is a complicated character who defies basic labels like "Good" or "Evil" imo.

[Siaun Sanche]

7 hours ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

It wasn't his choice to murder those people (or at least he perceived it as not being his choice).  His intentions were to follow his code/religion (the only thing keeping him sane/justifying his continued existence in his eyes).  He was bound to obey the owner of his Oathstone by his honor (which is incidentally what makes him a great Radiant candidate; or more specifically Skybreaker candidate).  Therefore he only saw himself as a tool.  His internal monologues during his POVs are all about how he thinks he's a monster for what he's doing.

I mean, all that made him a dangerous zealot, but the fact of the matter is the idea that he was 'compelled' to do these things was a lie he told himself. He wasn't literally compelled to do so, by some sort of magic. He had the ability to walk away at any time. He preferred to abide by blind zealotry at the cost of many many lives. That's evil. And it doesn't cut a lot of ice with me that he walked away when he was no longer able to lie to himself. He should have walked away when he was first asked to murder an innocent.

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

According to the herald of Justice, he's a Paragon of virtue.

According to the herald of Justice, Lift and Ym needed to be killed. The herald of Justice is crazy.

[Fourth Of The Night]

21 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

I mean, all that made him a dangerous zealot, but the fact of the matter is the idea that he was 'compelled' to do these things was a lie he told himself. He wasn't literally compelled to do so, by some sort of magic. He had the ability to walk away at any time. He preferred to abide by blind zealotry at the cost of many many lives. That's evil. And it doesn't cut a lot of ice with me that he walked away when he was no longer able to lie to himself. He should have walked away when he was first asked to murder an innocent.

Well, we actually don't know that for sure. Brandon has RAFO'd people asking if Szeth's Oathstone is magical or not.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Fourth Of The Night

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

Well, we actually don't know that for sure. Brandon has RAFO'd people asking if Szeth's Oathstone is magical or not.

No it's been confirmed. 

Quote

wlmkfi

If i was holding Szeth's oathstone would he understand my commands?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question, i don't believe anyone has asked it before. No, an oathstone doesn't have any magical properties whatsoever.

That said, belief is powerful, and Szeth was following his. 

Religion in itself isn't evil. Religion, when abused can be. This is what was done with Szeth.