How can the Heralds go to Braize?

[Djarskublar]

We know the Heralds are Cognitive Shadows. Kelsier couldn't leave the Scadrial Shadesmar because he was bound to it. Spren can't easily leave Roshar for the same reason. So how can the Heralds leave Roshar and go to Braize after every desolation? Are they just bound to Greater Roshar (the system) instead of the planet? Does that mean they could head over to Ashyn if they wished? Do the people on Ashyn know about/worship the Heralds? This line of questioning has really got me thinking, but I don't know of any WoB about this specifically. Anyone else have thoughts or information on the matter? This is going to bother me for the next couple days at least.

[Andy92]

Well, we know of other Cognitive Shadows that can travel between planets like:

Spoiler

Hoid, Vasher, Khriss, the Ire, etc. Kelsier was tied to Scadrial pretty strongly for one reason or another that I can't fully remember, but it's not too uncommon to see Cognitive Shadows hop between worlds. 

I'm not sure of the specifics of the Heralds immortality and exactly what causes the teleportation to Braize with the Oathpact though. I know if they died they would end up on Braize automatically, and if they survived a Desolation, they were expected to go there voluntarily. The latter option means they must be able to willingly world hop between planets at least within the Rosharian system. I'm not sure how the automatic teleport to Braize after death works though. Maybe Odium captures the Cognitive Shadows of the Herlads after they die and takes them to Braize himself? 

Edit: For spoilers because I forgot I was in the SA forums and not the Cosmere Theories one. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Andy92

[Khyrindor]

3 hours ago, Andy92 said:

Well, we know of other Cognitive Shadows that can travel between planets like:

  Hide contents

Hoid, Vasher, Khriss, the Ire, etc. Kelsier was tied to Scadrial pretty strongly for one reason or another that I can't fully remember, but it's not too uncommon to see Cognitive Shadows hop between worlds. 

 

Spoilers for all books:

Spoiler

Actually, Vasher is the only confirmed worldhopper who is a Cognitive Shadow on the list, unless I'm missing something. Khriss probably has access to regular 17th Shard agelessness, I don't think she's ever died. The Ire are Elantrians, and we recently got confirmation that since Elantrians don't die to be Initiated, they don't count as Cognitive Shadows. Hoid is something else entirely, and we don't know if Kelsier has worldhopped yet (though I believe he has or will at some point. Heralds might count as Cognitive Shadows, we don't know for sure, but we know that some people in the Cosmere would consider them as such. As a Cognitive Shadow, you need to have a physical body in order to Worldhop, and even then it's hard to do. Kelsier was tied to Scadrial because he didn't have a body at that point. 

As for the Heralds getting to Braize, Kalak thinks about it like they have a choice to go, so I assume it involves your normal, run-of-the-mill worldhopping. Though since Braize is in the same system, I doubt it's very hard for them to get to anyway. There was actually a recent theory saying that Braize and Ashyn might be on the Shadesmar map of the Roashar area. 

I'm of the opinion that they can get there no problem, since they have physical bodies.

Relevant WoBs (spoilers for all):

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Q: Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon: The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave. It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. ‘Cognitive Shadow’ is a very ambiguous term in the Cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but you are usually Invested with something, that’s tied, and you’re basically like pure Investiture then. You’re tied to the thing you’re Connected to. Most of the things that you’re gonna see like that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Source. Scroll to 14:32 in the outside Q&A.

Quote

QUESTION

Okay, so when Kelsier is in the-- Which Realm is he in?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He’s in the Cognitive Realm.

QUESTION

Is he seeing people from other worlds or is he--

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, he meets some people who are traveling but Cognitive Realm is location dependent. He is on the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and the people he runs into there-- until he kind of travels off into space, which is where he finds the fortress.

QUESTION

So even though he’s tied to Scadrial could he go to the Cognitive Realm of other worlds?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He would have trouble getting to another planet, being a Cognitive shadow like he was.

QUESTION

So is there some particular thing that somebody would need to have to be able to move between the realms?

BRANDON SANDERSON

A body is helpful.

QUESTION

That does make sense.

 

Source. Scroll to #8.

 

Quote

 

Khyrindor

Quick question if you're still answering: You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

 

Source.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Khyrindor

[Yata]

We have a WoB on the Heralds to be bound to Great Roshar System.

This is probably caused by the number of planets with sentient life on them that make a more large/stable subastral in the Cognitive Realm where the Shards' Investiture could extend into....Something like if also on Braize or Ashlyn you are still trace of Honor and Cultivation (like you could feel the Odium's influence on Roshar)

[Andy92]

@Khyrindor I think I got the verbiage of Cognitive Shadows vs. "world hopping using the Cognitive Realm" mixed up. I was trying to refer to world hopping in general and got the terms crossed. 

[Khyrindor]

Just now, Andy92 said:

@Khyrindor I think I got the verbiage of Cognitive Shadows vs. "world hopping using the Cognitive Realm" mixed up. I was trying to refer to world hopping in general and got the terms crossed. 

Ah I see. Yeah, I'm pretty sure most Worldhoppers use the Cognitive Realm. Cognitive Shadows are explained in some of the WoBs I quoted. Hope I helped!

[Djarskublar]

Okay cool. So the Heralds could hop to Ashyn.

On another note, what is the mechanic of them going to Braize? I always assumed that they went straight to damnation. When they get killed, they just end up there. But how do they get there? My guess is that they get teleported (Elsecalled?), but I don't have any concrete evidence besides the spren not seeming to know about it. And what about when they don't die? I always assumed they just kinda gave up their body and went to Braize. But after thinking about it, I realized that I have absolutely no basis for that assumption... What wild guesses are out there about this?

[Weltall]

Possibly one of the conditions of the Oathpact is that when the Heralds die, Odium knows it and uses his Shardic Power of Shardyness to yank their souls to Braize. Mistborn Secret History spoiler:

 

At the beginning of the work, Preservation was able to manifest to all the recently deceased before they went Beyond even in his weakened state. Wa know his successor does the same thing. So as long as there's some connection (with or without a capital C) between the Heralds and Odium, he might be able to do something similar.

As for how the Heralds willingly go there if they aren't killed in a Desolation... well I suppose they could suicide if they don't have a means to physically go there. Since staying is supposed to trigger a new Desolation they had an incentive to do it for the good of Roshar, until Aharietiam came along and they figured out how to game the system.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Weltall

[BlackYeti]

On 4/24/2017 at 6:46 PM, Djarskublar said:

Okay cool. So the Heralds could hop to Ashyn.

On another note, what is the mechanic of them going to Braize? I always assumed that they went straight to damnation. When they get killed, they just end up there. But how do they get there? My guess is that they get teleported (Elsecalled?), but I don't have any concrete evidence besides the spren not seeming to know about it. And what about when they don't die? I always assumed they just kinda gave up their body and went to Braize. But after thinking about it, I realized that I have absolutely no basis for that assumption... What wild guesses are out there about this?

How's this for a crazy idea?

We know that Cognitive Shadows are tied to a location unless they gain a body (Warbreaker Spoiler)

Spoiler

like Vasher did. 

What if, the Heralds are tied to Braize specifically, and in order to get to Roshar they first need to be given their bodies. Then, if they are killed they snap back to Braize because that's where they're tied to as Cognitive Shadows.

This would mean that the reason they are confined to the Rosharan System is actually not because they are Cognitive Shadows, but something else. Perhaps their participation in the Oathpact (which we know is still functioning to some capacity even if the Heralds think they broke it) is keeping them there like it is also (possibly) keeping Odium in the System.

[theuntaintedchild]

15 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

How's this for a crazy idea?

We know that Cognitive Shadows are tied to a location unless they gain a body (Warbreaker Spoiler)

  Reveal hidden contents

like Vasher did. 

What if, the Heralds are tied to Braize specifically, and in order to get to Roshar they first need to be given their bodies. Then, if they are killed they snap back to Braize because that's where they're tied to as Cognitive Shadows.

This would mean that the reason they are confined to the Rosharan System is actually not because they are Cognitive Shadows, but something else. Perhaps their participation in the Oathpact (which we know is still functioning to some capacity even if the Heralds think they broke it) is keeping them there like it is also (possibly) keeping Odium in the System.

I like this idea. It makes sense and everything. XD

 

[+Extesian]

20 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

How's this for a crazy idea?

We know that Cognitive Shadows are tied to a location unless they gain a body (Warbreaker Spoiler)

  Reveal hidden contents

like Vasher did. 

What if, the Heralds are tied to Braize specifically, and in order to get to Roshar they first need to be given their bodies. Then, if they are killed they snap back to Braize because that's where they're tied to as Cognitive Shadows.

This would mean that the reason they are confined to the Rosharan System is actually not because they are Cognitive Shadows, but something else. Perhaps their participation in the Oathpact (which we know is still functioning to some capacity even if the Heralds think they broke it) is keeping them there like it is also (possibly) keeping Odium in the System.

I love this idea, I'm amazed I've never seen it before.  It fits with so many things, the obligation to go back if they don't die, the WoB that the Heralds are not from Roshar, and depending on when it was written Khriss' statement in AU some inhabitants of Braize could be Cognitive Shadows (though of course that could be Odium's). Makes a lot of sense to me.  I want to see if others can find problems but at the moment i can't and i like it

[+Wax]

Maybe they are using perpendicularity to travel?  Refer: Arcanum Unbounded, Mistborn: Secret History.  The body thing seems apparent from a particular scene in Mistborn: Secret History.

Perhaps a perpendicularity does not exist to build a bridge between Braize and Roshar?  Which is what everyone is afraid of?

[Andy92]

So in the case of this theory, would the Herlads need new physical bodies after they return to Roshar from Braize each time? Or would it be possible to reinhabit the same body they used to have on Roshar before returning to Braize? 

[Rasarr]

On 27.04.2017 at 4:20 AM, Andy92 said:

So in the case of this theory, would the Herlads need new physical bodies after they return to Roshar from Braize each time? Or would it be possible to reinhabit the same body they used to have on Roshar before returning to Braize? 

I suppose if they store their bodies the same way Shard Vessels store theirs, it's possible for them to reinhabit the same body. Scadrial has been several thousand years old when Ruin died, but Ati's body showed up fresh and whole, so we know it's possible to keep the body intact for so long. This being said, if Coppermind is to be believed, Shards' bodies are vaporized during ascension and then rematerialize upon death, meaning significant amount of power is required. Still, Tanavast could've found a way to use the same mechanic to preserve his Heralds' bodies while their souls are off in Braize.

For an alternative, there was a theory put forth a while back that upon their return from Braize, Heralds possess some poor schmucks and use cognitive healing to get themselves their original appearance back. I personally disagree, mostly because I find this overly complicated and creepy, but I guess that's also an option.

[Andy92]

@Rasarr I'd say they probably do keep their own bodies because we have artwork of the Heralds' faces which makes it seem like they look the same each time they return to Roshar. I started wondering about the possibility of them inhabiting a new body each time as a sort of reincarnation type of thing where it's the same person in a different body. I've read theories that KRs may be reincarnations of the same people each time a new Desolation comes, just in different bodies. 

[+Wax]

Umm... secret history mistborn spoiler re the body issue.

Spoiler

Does anyone remember Hoid was paddling on a clound with a dead body near the well of ascension?  Where he had his encounter with Kelsier?

Maybe someone can dredge up the relevant quote re the dead body from Hoid.

 

[+Extesian]

4 minutes ago, axcellence said:

Umm... secret history mistborn spoiler re the body issue.

  Hide contents

Does anyone remember Hoid was paddling on a clound with a dead body near the well of ascension?  Where he had his encounter with Kelsier?

Maybe someone can dredge up the relevant quote re the dead body from Hoid.

 

This one?

Quote

QUESTION

So, why did Hoid in Secret History have to ride on another person to get to the Well, when that person could float on--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Sooo, what he’s floating on is a Cognitive Shadow, it’s a spirit, it’s not an actual person.

QUESTION

Do we know them?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You don’t know them, don’t worry about them. But see, he’s using that as a boat because it’s easy to sink through the mist. And if you notice, he has to coat his oar with Investiture in order to move him. So yeah, he’s floating on a person’s soul. It was so much easier with the Pits, but that’s because there were boats and things.

 

[Yata]

On 27/4/2017 at 3:40 AM, axcellence said:

Maybe they are using perpendicularity to travel?  Refer: Arcanum Unbounded, Mistborn: Secret History.  The body thing seems apparent from a particular scene in Mistborn: Secret History.

Perhaps a perpendicularity does not exist to build a bridge between Braize and Roshar?  Which is what everyone is afraid of?

The problem here is we know for sure there are Perpendicularities both in Roshar and Braize. It's a side effect of Shards' presences on a Planet. So Roshar and Braize are reachable each others

[Khyrindor]

16 hours ago, Yata said:

The problem here is we know for sure there are Perpendicularities both in Roshar and Braize. It's a side effect of Shards' presences on a Planet. So Roshar and Braize are reachable each others

Well, we have a WoB that says there's a Shard who's pool is on another planet. It could be Odiums, if his is on Roshar.

[+Wax]

21 hours ago, Yata said:

The problem here is we know for sure there are Perpendicularities both in Roshar and Braize. It's a side effect of Shards' presences on a Planet. So Roshar and Braize are reachable each others

Ok... perhaps I didn't extrapolate it that well.  I think the key word is "the bridge".  So, perhaps the bridge is like a permanent porthole between Roshar and Braize - which can lead to easy egress directly fron Braize to Roshar.

[Yata]

8 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

Well, we have a WoB that says there's a Shard who's pool is on another planet. It could be Odiums, if his is on Roshar.

But also if this would be the case (and I think It's not) Odium could Simply make a temp Perpendicularity to shift things to and from Braize's Cognitive (It's something a mortal could do, I really doubt It's beyond a Shard's capacità). Without considerate that probably He don't Need to move into the physical at all. The torture of the Heralds could happen into the CR, not for sure in the PR

Edited April 30, 2017 by Yata