Nightblood Solved! (Maybe?)

[+Extesian]

29 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Except Shardblades (including living Sprenblades) don't cut living flesh.  There are cases where that would work, sure, for necrotic tissue removal, etc, but much of surgery is working with living flesh (and trying to keep it living), so a Shardscalpel wouldn't actually be a great tool.

Even with this the problem i see is cognitive.  A shard blade to the bicep won't just kill the flesh it touches, or even the bicep, it will kill threw whole arm (I believe). Because cognitively you view your arm as one thing. So even getting rid of necrotic flesh will presumably also kill everything around it. 

[Jondesu]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

Even with this the problem i see is cognitive.  A shard blade to the bicep won't just kill the flesh it touches, or even the bicep, it will kill threw whole arm (I believe). Because cognitively you view your arm as one thing. So even getting rid of necrotic flesh will presumably also kill everything around it. 

Agreed, that could be a danger, though it's possible it could be worked around.  A Shardblade that cuts through the bicep, for instance, would only kill the whole arm if it goes through the core of the arm. If you just sliced through a top layer of skin, it wouldn't, and I'm not sure we know exactly what happens then.

[Hemalurgic Headshot]

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

Even with this the problem i see is cognitive.  A shard blade to the bicep won't just kill the flesh it touches, or even the bicep, it will kill threw whole arm (I believe). Because cognitively you view your arm as one thing. So even getting rid of necrotic flesh will presumably also kill everything around it. 

And what if you were a surgeon? You would know every muscle on your arm, and thinking them separately from years of medical education and practice.

[+Extesian]

12 minutes ago, Hemalurgic_Headshot said:

And what if you were a surgeon? You would know every muscle on your arm, and thinking them separately from years of medical education and practice.

@Jondesu I'm curious to know if that is the case about it making a difference how deep the cut is. 

And i definitely agree that there are work around s for the cognitive issue.  Though I'm not sure whether it would be the surgeon or the patient whose cognitive view influences the effect. 

[Jondesu]

48 minutes ago, Extesian said:

@Jondesu I'm curious to know if that is the case about it making a difference how deep the cut is. 

And i definitely agree that there are work around s for the cognitive issue.  Though I'm not sure whether it would be the surgeon or the patient whose cognitive view influences the effect. 

It was mentioned in the Prologue from Szeth's perspective first:

Quote

“If the Blade touched a man’s spine, he died, eyes burning. If it cut through the core of a limb, it killed that limb.”

I don't think we ever learned what a scratch or graze with a Shardblade would do, interestingly.

[Spoolofwhool]

42 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

It was mentioned in the Prologue from Szeth's perspective first:

I don't think we ever learned what a scratch or graze with a Shardblade would do, interestingly.

Kaladin stabbed Szeth in the shoulder during their fight and he didnt look hurt because the strike didn't go deep enough. 

[Jondesu]

5 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Kaladin stabbed Szeth in the shoulder during their fight and he didnt look hurt because the strike didn't go deep enough. 

Thanks, I'd forgotten that.  Unfortunately, there's not a ton more detail there.  It says Szeth's "eyes widened", and then Kaladin twists the blade and pulls it out, and just after that notes that Szeth's hand still works, which means the strike didn't sever the soul leading to the arm.  It also notes that “he didn’t try to heal his shoulder—which would have required a lot of Light”, which is interesting.  Was it bleeding?  Partly grey? It doesn't really tell us, though I can't imagine it's bleeding and actually cut, from the way we know Shardblades work. Szeth is in the highstorm the next time he's mentioned, exploding with Stormlight, so it's likely he healed himself then, when he didn't have to worry about a shortage.

[+Extesian]

6 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Thanks, I'd forgotten that.  Unfortunately, there's not a ton more detail there.  It says Szeth's "eyes widened", and then Kaladin twists the blade and pulls it out, and just after that notes that Szeth's hand still works, which means the strike didn't sever the soul leading to the arm.  It also notes that “he didn’t try to heal his shoulder—which would have required a lot of Light”, which is interesting.  Was it bleeding?  Partly grey? It doesn't really tell us, though I can't imagine it's bleeding and actually cut, from the way we know Shardblades work. Szeth is in the highstorm the next time he's mentioned, exploding with Stormlight, so it's likely he healed himself then, when he didn't have to worry about a shortage.

Yeah this is pretty interesting. I'm starting to imagine the soul  here as pretty much being a stick figure. It doesn't indicate much about how far down you can classify the components (does  the kneecap have a soul distinct from the leg, if that's your cognitive frame of reference)? I'm still  very curious about how deep the breakdown goes and how your cognitive view of yourself affects that.  But certainly sounds like the 'core' needs to be cut through to sever the soul of each component of the body, rather than a graze or a nick. 

[Calderis]

23 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Thanks, I'd forgotten that.  Unfortunately, there's not a ton more detail there.  It says Szeth's "eyes widened", and then Kaladin twists the blade and pulls it out, and just after that notes that Szeth's hand still works, which means the strike didn't sever the soul leading to the arm.  It also notes that “he didn’t try to heal his shoulder—which would have required a lot of Light”, which is interesting.  Was it bleeding?  Partly grey? It doesn't really tell us, though I can't imagine it's bleeding and actually cut, from the way we know Shardblades work. Szeth is in the highstorm the next time he's mentioned, exploding with Stormlight, so it's likely he healed himself then, when he didn't have to worry about a shortage.

You also have to remember that Kaladin was making an assumption here. Szeth believed (whether correctly or not I don't know) that he couldn't heal Shardblade cuts. That's why Kaladin healing his arm frightened him so much after the Assassination attempt on Dalinar. To Szeth, a Shardblades cut is permanent. Kaladin just assumed he didn't try to heal because it would be too costly, because that's his understanding of the power. 

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Calderis said:

Szeth believed (whether correctly or not I don't know) that he couldn't heal Shardblade cuts.

Given the "Not from an Honorblade" WoB, I'm inclined to believe that healing a Shardblade wound requires more Stormlight than Szeth can actually hold at any one time, barring the Surge of Regrowth. (Kaladin described it as sucking away a lot of Stormlight all at once yes?)

[Yata]

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Given the "Not from an Honorblade" WoB, I'm inclined to believe that healing a Shardblade wound requires more Stormlight than Szeth can actually hold at any one time, barring the Surge of Regrowth. (Kaladin described it as sucking away a lot of Stormlight all at once yes?)

I am not sure It's a matter of efficiency and amount of stormlight. If that was the case, a Honorblade bearer will be able to heal his soul one bit at time (something like Lopen with his physical wound).

I think the inability is caused mainly by the less integration an Honorblade has in the holder's spiritweb.

Edited April 28, 2017 by Yata

[The One Who Connects]

12 hours ago, Yata said:

I am not sure It's a matter of efficiency and amount of stormlight. If that was the case, a Honorblade bearer will be able to heal his soul one bit at time (something like Lopen with his physical wound).

I think the inability is caused mainly by the less integration an Honorblade has in the holder's spiritweb.

I did forget Lopen did that.. Maybe spiritual wounds have to be all at once as opposed to a physical wound like Lopen had?

Either way, you make a valid point about the spiritweb integration.

[Vissy]

On 23.4.2017 at 1:50 AM, Obnoxiousspren said:

Hey, maybe Hoid was somehow responsible, who knows?

Ah, the famous "Hoid of the Gaps" argument.

As to how Lopen managed to regrow his arm, he simply never thought of himself as a one-armed man. He never accepted the loss of his arm. Regrowth (and any other in-cosmere regenerational ability) heals your body to look like the body you envision it to be - this is why Kaladin's forehead brands don't heal, for example. He views his slave brands as integral parts of himself, and similarly, Lopen views his other arm to be an integral part of himself. Thus the healing.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Obnoxiousspren]

On 4/29/2017 at 3:15 PM, Rob Lucci said:

Ah, the famous "Hoid of the Gaps" argument.

Hey, when it comes to Hoid I believe "guilty until proven innocent" is the best rule to follow! But your right, in this case it was just random speculation. Of course I could think of some reasons why he'd do it....

[Just another guyn]

On 4/26/2017 at 9:18 PM, Extesian said:

Yeah this is pretty interesting. I'm starting to imagine the soul  here as pretty much being a stick figure. It doesn't indicate much about how far down you can classify the components (does  the kneecap have a soul distinct from the leg, if that's your cognitive frame of reference)? I'm still  very curious about how deep the breakdown goes and how your cognitive view of yourself affects that.  But certainly sounds like the 'core' needs to be cut through to sever the soul of each component of the body, rather than a graze or a nick. 

I've always thought it was the central nerve needing to be cut as that makes the logical limb "core"

[Darth Kholin]

So, I read somewhere (I think it was the wiki) that Nightblood assaults the object being cut in all realms- Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual. Shardblades cut in the Spiritual Realm for life, but the Physical Realm for things not alive. I wonder if there is some sort of counterpart on Nalthis? Like, if Awakened metal will cut in the Cognitive Realm. That would be interesting, and also one of the only ways I can see for Nightblood to do something like this. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Nightblood

[kenod]

1 hour ago, DarthKholin said:

So, I read somewhere (I think it was the wiki) that Nightblood assaults the object being cut in all realms- Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual. Shardblades cut in the Spiritual Realm for life, but the Physical Realm for things not alive. I wonder if there is some sort of counterpart on Nalthis? Like, if Awakened metal will cut in the Cognitive Realm. That would be interesting, and also one of the only ways I can see for Nightblood to do something like this. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Nightblood

Oathbringer spoilers:

Spoiler

In OB we see another awakened blade, and it drains the color of those it kills. Given that the same effect happens when Nightblood drains someone's Breath, I think it still cuts in the spiritual realm, but the exact way the cut happens and how it damages the soul, or the way the damage manifests is different.

 

[MacThorstenson]

[Darth Kholin]

Oh... What if the origin world for Roshar humans is Nalthis, and Warbreaker occurs thousands of years before Way of Kings? It would explain exactly how Nightblood got where it was. Maybe another Manywar?

 

Quote

Jamester86

Kalad and Kalak, Shashara and Shalash...a lot of names on Nalthis and Roshar seem related....pure coincidence?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a lot of crossover between the planets. But not every connection people make is an intentional one.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by DarthKholin
Added content

[The Sovereign]

1 minute ago, DarthKholin said:

Oh... What if the origin world for Roshar humans is Nalthis, and Warbreaker occurs thousands of years before Way of Kings? It would explain exactly how Nightblood got where it was. Maybe another Manywar?

We know via WOB that the events of Warbreaker are ~700 Cosmere standard years before WoK.

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, DarthKholin said:

Oh... What if the origin world for Roshar humans is Nalthis, and Warbreaker occurs thousands of years before Way of Kings? It would explain exactly how Nightblood got where it was. Maybe another Manywar?

To quote myself:

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Warbreaker happens after Hero of Ages, and Alloy of Law takes place after Stormlight 5. AoL is only 341 years after HoA, meaning that there is a maximum of ~300 years from WB to SA. Nightblood was made during the Manywar, 300 years prior to the story of WB.

Nightblood was only created roughly 600 years before modern Stormlight Archives takes place. Nightblood would have been made about a century after the Hierocracy, which is nearly 1.5 millennia after the Recreance. Which is nearly 2.5 millennia after the Heralds retired during Aharietiam, which is etc...

Were Stormlight happening right now, Nightblood would have been created during the reign of Henry V of England. All things considered, that's not that long ago.

Just barely ninja'd by Sovereign

[Lelouch Vi Britannia]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet. Someone a while ago mentioned that Brandon says things have a "cap" on the amount of investiture they can hold. He also says (Brandon) that things like Nightblood and Shardblades are near that cap, probably similarly near. We know that Nightblood is one of the most heavily invested things in the Cosmere, more so than shardblades. Finally, that limit is probably at least somewhat based on physical size, and Nightblood is a lot smaller than a Shardblade (though larger than a normal sword). Thusly... why can Nightblood hold so much Investiture? That doesn't make sense....

[MacThorstenson]

34 minutes ago, LewsTherinTalamon said:

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet. Someone a while ago mentioned that Brandon says things have a "cap" on the amount of investiture they can hold. He also says (Brandon) that things like Nightblood and Shardblades are near that cap, probably similarly near. We know that Nightblood is one of the most heavily invested things in the Cosmere, more so than shardblades. Finally, that limit is probably at least somewhat based on physical size, and Nightblood is a lot smaller than a Shardblade (though larger than a normal sword). Thusly... why can Nightblood hold so much Investiture? That doesn't make sense....

Why would that limit be based on physical size?

[Lelouch Vi Britannia]

11 hours ago, Ookla the Capricious said:

Why would that limit be based on physical size?

Uhhhhhhh..... well, stormlight storage is based on size of gems as well as quality of cut, and ettmetal investiture storage is too. But I'm guessing here, I'm probably wrong. But the question still remains how nightblood is more invested than a shardblade, because I really don't think the OP is accurate. Entirely, at least.

 

[kmosiman]

i would think that size matters only to a certain extent. Shards still have Physical bodies somewhere. Either that or they have so much power that their physical form move temporarily (while they are alive) to another realm.

The part the I don't yet understand with Nightblood is what happens to the things he destroys. As previously mentioned in this thread, 1000 breaths doesn't seem like enough power to do what he does. My personal belief is that Nightblood feeds off the Investiture he consumes. He may leak some, but he stores the rest. This would possibly explain the magnitude of his power since he was used to kill his creator, who was at the 9th Heightening, plus an uncounted number of others. While he may leak power when unsheathed, he is normally contained. The God King has an enormous store of breaths, but he is still human sized (if a bit large as a Returned). I don't see why a sword couldn't contain a similar amount of power.